Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

Cal: Welcome to the Grazing
Grass Podcast Episode 90.

Suzanne: Your friends don't have to
be ideologically aligned with you to

be friends and to be helpful to you.

So many people in this movement
are looking to find people like

them who found farm like them and
Hubert and i's very best friends in

farming do not farm like us at all.

Cal: You're listening to the Grazing Grass
Podcast, helping grass farmers learn from

grass farmers, and every episode features
a grass farmer and their operation.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage.

On today's show we
welcome Suzanne Karaman.

She is of Reverence Farms and we
talk about grass based dairying today

including adding carbon to the soil,
animal nutrition, and other topics.

I know some of you are thinking grass
based dairy doesn't apply to me.

Don't do that.

This is a great episode with
lots of information, even

if you are not milking cows.

Before we get to Suzanne, ten
seconds about my farm, and in

today's episode we're going to talk
about the website for the podcast.

We have redesigned the
Grazing Grass podcast website.

WE want it to be a useful tool for you
instead of a place to house the podcast.

So I'd appreciate you taking a look
at it and send me some feedback Along

those lines We announced a few months
ago about our patreon and to be honest

hadn't done anything with that However,
I have started doing stuff on it, so

if you go to the website, grazinggrass.

com, and click on support, you can
go to our Patreon link there, and you

can see what's happening over there.

We're posting some updates, we're going to
try and make it a useful tool, and it just

helps us keep up what we're doing here.

We'll have a little bit more
information at the end of the

podcast if you're interested.

Let's talk to Suzanne.

we want to welcome you

to the Grazing Grass Podcast.

We're excited you're joining us today.

Suzanne: Thanks Cal.

It's great to be here and
I appreciate you having me.

Cal: Can you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your operation?

I

Suzanne: We live and farm in
the Piedmont of North Carolina.

That's the central part of North Carolina,
between the mountains and the sea.

It's rolling hills and
primarily clay soils.

I farm, uh, with my family
and my husband, Hubert.

Um, Hubert is an organic dairy
vet and I met him at an acres

USA concert conference in 2015.

I sat in the front row.

Um, I was a professional admirer
of his and I had no intention on

it being a romantic encounter.

Um, but we were married four
and a half months later.

He kind of married into this operation.

At the time we had about 20 or
so 25 cows, the most, maybe less.

And, uh, we're now milking.

This year we'll be milking close to 80.

Uh,

we have jerseys and they are all
exception, with the exception of one

of our, our dear cows named Pocahontas.

They're all A2A2 and they're
all a hundred percent grass fed.

Um, and we graze with
multiple paddock moves a day.

Um, we milk once a day and we
share the calves with the cows or

the cows with the calves rather.

So, um, we're a very unique dairy.

I don't know of another dairy in
the United States at our scale that

does what we do, which is that we
raise all 80 calves on their own

mothers, including the bull calves.

So it's a little bit like a cow
calf operation in the beef world.

Except we're a dairy and we separate
the calves off at night and we

milk the moms in the morning.

And then the moms get their calves
back, um, for a period of the day.

The older calfs get
their moms for less time.

Um, because we're a hundred percent
grass fed and we don't feed grain,

it means that we really need to feed
those animals milk for a very good

percentage of their young lives.

So the bull cals are on their mothers
until five to six and a half months,

five and a half to six months, six
months or so, and the heifers are on

their mom's for seven plus months.

Um, and there's lots of different
ways that we modulate the milk

flow to the calves with timing of
separation and, um, and we wean in

a pretty interesting way as well.

Um, but our whole goal is to
have a compassionate dairy.

We believe that dairy
cows are mothers too.

. And one of the consumer's biggest problems
with dairy is understandably that a,

that a mammal is separated from her own.

Yum.

That we don't think that milk cows
were made by God for our convenience.

They make milk for their calf, otherwise
they wouldn't need a calf to make milk.

And that's in the dairy world, honestly,
treated as a major inconvenience

that there's these, these, especially
these bull calfs, like what are

we, what are we to do with them?

And as a, as a mother myself, I never
really could wrap my head around that.

I couldn't understand how, um, we, I was
supposed to take this baby from its mom.

So we've developed
systems to make that work.

So our farm is very complex and, uh,
grazing with that many animals and

that many small animals is complex.

Um, especially because we have
to go back to the barn every day.

Um, so we can talk about that more.

Um, . And a little bit like,
kind of how we've grown it.

And we did everything until just
this year with polywire, single,

strand, polywire fences, everything,
including our lanes back to the barn,

which was super challenging at times.

We have other livestock as well.

We're a diversified operation.

We direct market.

We have a, there's a lot going on.

Cal: There, there's so much you said
there that, that I, I've looked at your

website, so I've seen some of the stuff
that you're doing there, but I didn't

realize you all were milking 80 cows
because like you said, for for grass fed

you

usually don't have that kind of numbers.

the calf sharing, that's
really interesting.

, we had a guest on that's doing calf
sharing, but he's not doing it to the

extent you are because you're keeping
them on there till basically were a beef

cow when you would wean them five or six
months, or seven or eight for heifers.

So that's very interesting.

before we dive into all that, what
made you interested in grass fed dairy?

Suzanne: Well, a lot of people tried
to talk me into having beef cows.

Um, that was pretty much like a
universal refrain when I started farming.

I've been farming for about 15 years.

It's easy for me to remember how
long I've been farming, 'cause

I started farming at the exact
same age as my daughter was born.

Um, so I was pregnant with her
when I got my first milk cow.

And really what made me wanna do
dairy is I wanted the milk myself.

I wasn't interested in being a farmer.

I was just an eater.

And the, what I wanted wasn't available.

There was no eggs in my area that
came from chickens that had access

to the outdoors, grazed fresh grass,
and also had an organic grain.

And everybody wanted to talk
about how, oh, we supplement

our chickens with non GMO.

And I was like, chickens
aren't supplemented.

Ruminants are supplemented with
grain, but chickens and pigs

are not supplemented with grain.

That drives me bonkers
when people say that.

I think it's deceptive
marketing, and I just wish people

would

stop chickens and pigs eat grain for
the most part, and I couldn't deal

with the fact that they were eating
just in, in my area at the time.

There wasn't even non GMO feed.

It was just whatever came out of the
local feed store, which was pretty

much the same thing that chickens
and pigs were aging in the factories.

And I didn't think grass was a sufficient
tonic to deal with those problems.

And even non GMO to me has a
whole bunch of problems because

GMOs came about for a reason.

I'm not in support of them, but they
came about because 24D is no joke.

You know, like we already had
three-legged frogs before GMOs.

Like what came before
GMOs was also a problem.

And, and so I really wanted eggs
that I felt good about, and I really

wanted milk from a cow that ate grass.

And I had no idea how
complicated that journey was.

And I, I see so many people now, Joel s
wrote a book of course called Homestead

Tsunami, and he's right, it's a tsunami.

There is like thousands of
people getting milk cows.

And it makes me shudder because I
know how much I didn't know then,

and how much

suffering for myself and the animals
because I didn't, you know, I was

dogmatic and believe, well, if she's
eating grass, that's all she needs.

Well, it's not, um.

But those why I am a farmer
is because I was a homesteader

and fell in love with an idea.

And the idea was that every day that
I grazed this cow and I had a single

milk cow, her name was Greeley,
and I had her calf named Gracie.

And I moved them around my nine acre
homestead, of which only probably

two or three acres was open.

And I moved in with
portable electric fencing.

I had goats and sheep before them, and
at the same time then as I had these cows

and I moved them around and I couldn't
believe what was possible when you

moved animals and you let the grass rest
because I hadn't yet seen it for myself.

It was an idea I fell in love with.

I fell in love with this idea that we
could trap carbon from the air that

didn't belong and that belonged in the
ground and could put it in the ground.

When it rained, it would absorb the water.

When it didn't rain, it would
release the water that the creeks.

Theoretically, if we all did,
this would run clear again

and that humans and that humans would
no longer be a scorch on the earth.

I was raised in the seventies and the
eighties and my mom was a very early

environmentalist before that was cool.

Like it was not cool when I was growing up
that my mom was composting, I promise you.

And nobody recycled.

And we recycled.

And um, I just remember growing
up with this idea that, that

humans just did bad things.

That we were just ugly people
and we just made the world ugly.

And the only thing that we could
hope for is that we could fence

out our national parks and pick up
the trash and not leave a trail.

And that there was some places on
the earth would be beautiful still.

But when I got this cow and I started
moving her around and I started reading

this Stockman Grass farmer and I
started reading about these stories of

people transforming land with cattle.

I was just totally transfixed.

I couldn't believe it.

I couldn't believe that as a steward that
I could actually make the land better.

Like I could cry just talking
about it right now, because it

still moves me very greatly because
we're called to be stewards.

We were created in a garden,
and we were put here to take

care of a beautiful creation.

And so dairy cows, to me, represent
the ultimate part of that intimate

relationship because, you know,
you could try to milk your beef cow

and you may live, you might not.

Um, you might have a face
at the end, you might not.

Um, but this is an animal who's
structurally similar on the inside as

a beef cow, but she has a mind to share
with us because she's been bred for it.

And I just think that's amazing that she
has this substance that's so pure and

so beautiful, that's for her own baby,
and she's willing to share it with us.

And we are well from it, not only by
drinking it, but to me, what I was

after in the beginning was raw milk.

But what I realized is that dairy
is so much more than raw milk.

It's, it's about the way from the
cheese making process that then you

have byproduct for your garden or your
pastures or your chickens or your pigs.

You have, um, everything left over
from the cow is, is important for,

for the homestead or the farm.

She can make a garden fertile
while also feeding your family.

Like start just like, think
about that for a second.

It is really amazing to think about that
for a second, that she can actually,

she just gives and gives and gives.

And 10 months a year she's pregnant, 10
or nine and a half, 10 months a year.

She's lactating and she never has a break.

She's always either pregnant or
lactating, or eight months a year.

She's pregnant and

lactating.

So when people are thinking that
they can just put this grass out back

in their backyard and that that's
gonna have enough for her, I think

they have another thing coming.

But still this miraculous animal
turns this substance that covers

two thirds of the world's landmass,
where we cannot grow broccoli.

We cannot grow tomatoes because
it's either too rocky, too

steep, too infertile, or too
far from a diesel station.

And so we have this substance that
grows by God's grace, the fact that

it rains and it covers the world.

And we have these animals we can partner
with to make those, that substance into

food, and we can have a relationship
with them in the process and the process.

Learn something about ourselves.

To me, it's just a totally divine calling.

And I, I love every, every moment
that I spend with those calves,

Cal: Wonderful.

They, they are, um, amazing
creatures in what they can do.

One thing you mentioned there

was

you were after

raw milk.

cal_1_11-25-2023_140704: Um,

Cal: why did you go with cattle versus

sheep or goats?

Suzanne: because I didn't like goat milk,

I tried.

I really did.

Um, and I think goat milk can be done
a lot better than most people do it.

Um, I think it can not be goaty,

but Um, grain is an interesting
substance because it's, I

advocate a lot of people feed it.

I am not a purist about grain.

I think a lot of ruminants need to
eat grain because the grass that

people have is not sufficient.

And I don't think that you can
create a, create a medicinal

food by starving an animal.

And I see

way too many starving,
lactating animals way too many.

It makes me really sad.

Um, that all being said, grain does
change the nutrient profile, of course,

and it also changes the flavor profile.

And I think a lot of the reason
why I didn't like goat milk

was because of the grain one,

because

Cal: yes.

Suzanne: corn and soy, well
particularly soybean meal, has an

aftertaste that's kind of metallic.

And the best way I can describe it is kind
of mealy like I can feel when I eat pork

from an animal or eat an egg or chicken
from an animal that ate soybean meal.

I can always feel it in my mouth.

It's like,

I don't know how to describe it.

And I think that came
through the goat milk.

Um, and I think grain in my
experience with goats and sheep

makes their meat more goaty and

sheepy.

I don't know how else to describe that.

And I, people are surprised all the
time that we eat intact jersey bulls.

We eat them all the time.

And people are like,
doesn't that taste terrible?

And I said, no, because they're grass fed.

And I think had they had all that
testosterone running through them and

they eat grain, I think it's a problem.

So to get

to a long story short, I think that when
I was eating raw goat milk from a raw goat

dairy, I think the presence of the bucks
combined with the presence of the grain

just made a flavor that I didn't love.

If I was to milk a goat.

Now I think I could do it in a
way that I like to do it, but I

just wanted to drink cow's milk.

And I I will say, and Hubert
has been on a lot of dairy

farms in his professional life.

Our milk is really, really good.

And his, his comment is always, this
is the sweetest milk I've ever had.

And I'm convinced that it's because the
cows are loved and addition to their

diet, and addition to their balanced
diet, they're, one of my friends said,

I think your cows are emotionally
happy and I think you can taste that.

So I just wanted to drink cow's milk

Cal: Yeah.

Which is a valid reason.

And you bring up there about, um,
just your cows are emotionally happy.

know, if you're stressing
your animals out,

that's gonna

make a difference.

the way you treat 'em is going
to make a difference in the end.

As for goats milk, I like goats milk.

Okay.

But I've always told my wife,
because I've talked about having

milk goats different times.

I love, I don't, I just love dairy

Suzanne: Yeah.

Cal: but I've told her if I get milk
goats, there will not be a buck here.

I will have to ai, ai the esse.

Um.

Suzanne: Yeah.

Cal: And I, and I've, I actually
enough, have all the stuff

and gone to school to do it.

I just

Suzanne: Oh, to ai.

Cal: step Yeah.

To ai, goats and sheep
or goats, not sheep.

Um, And

then, um, on

sheep's milk, we went, been a
number of years ago, we went to a

sheep dairy.

And, um, we took a cheese class
there, which was a lot of fun.

But cheese milk is, is just,
it's totally different than

goat's milk and, and cow's milk.

It's just interesting.

But going on that tangent

a little

bit more, talking about the soybean
milk and the taste grain gives milk.

the milk, the raw milk on your farm is so
much different than the milk in a store.

you know,

when they,

when

they first started bottling

milk outside

the cardboard

boxes and they had those lights on
it, it affects the flavor of it.

And they were, they recommended to get
to grocery stores to put a sleeve over

it so it shedded some of the certain

Track 1: so

Cal: light, but no one wanted to
because it didn't make the milk look as

attractive.

But I tell people all the
time, raw milk store-bought

milk tastes totally different.

And I'm sure

Going that next step to

grass fed milk makes a difference.

Suzanne: It does, as long as
the grass has sufficient energy.

If it doesn't, it makes the milk tastes
very grassy and, and people don't like it.

And it also raises somatic cell counts.

And that's why I tell people,
if you don't have sufficient

energy in your, in your grass.

For the cow to stay in good condition,
I mean shiny in good condition, um,

then they really need to eat grain or
they need to eat molasses or something.

Cal: Now, just going on that for just
a second, do you use the Brix test

to to see the strength of your grass?

And I

say it that way because I have
not used it I'm not very familiar

with it, so I'm not, measures the
sugar in the grass if I'm correct.

Suzanne: that's correct.

It's really measuring density and,
and sugar shows up as density.

Um, and so we definitely do use that tool.

I'm not gonna tell you we use it every
day, or if it doesn't reach a certain Brix

level, we don't turn the cows out on it.

We don't really have that luxury.

We have to feed what we have.

Um, we have a lot of mouths.

Um, we also, we also feed
a fair amount of hay and.

That is kind of anathema to a lot of
commercial grass operations because, you

know, you spend hay money on hay, it just
cuts directly out of your bottom line.

Um, but there's a couple
reasons why we feed hay.

One, because we started on
a farm that had no top soil.

I'm not joking, like it had
0.0, 0.5% organic matter.

We've taken it from we've taken it from
that to 5% organic matter in five years.

Um, so I'm pretty proud of that.

But

Cal: yeah.

You

should

Suzanne: huge amount of that came
from applying carbon to the soil,

some of which came in the form of hay.

Um, cows, dairy cows eating hay, um, at
least for part of their diet is very good

because of the long stem chew factor.

So they tend to select for really lush
grass, um, and it's really good for them

to have that long stem fiber and to chew.

And the more they chew, the more butter
fat they make, and the more it slows

down their digestion and they just
sort of absorb the nutrients better.

Um, so we feed a fair amount of
hay, um, and we also have more

animals, frankly, than our, our
current pasture base can support.

But the the reality there is that you,
with dairy, you have so many fixed costs.

You have the barn, you have the milking
parlor, you have the cost of flipping

on the machines in the morning and have

there to flip on the machines.

So all of that costs a lot
of money if you're milk.

And it doesn't really cost
more money if you're milking

60 cows versus milking 20 cows.

And you have to pay yourself
back for that significant amount

of infrastructure to build to.

With a grass fed beef operation,
you don't really need a barn

in all places.

But in dairy you really do,

and you really do need a milking parlor.

And, um, and you need concrete
and stainless steel and.

Pipes and glass and all the,
you know, there's just stuff.

And, um, and so in order for us to have
a market for our milk, we needed to

produce a certain amount of milk per day.

Otherwise

don't have anybody who's
willing to pick you up.

Um, and we've always sold
our milk directly or locally.

So we used to have a raw pet milk
business, and now we sell our milk

to Chapel Hill Creamery, which
we're in the process of acquiring.

It's a local creamery.

And that creamery, just like
the farm, kind of only works

with a certain amount of volume.

So we have to pay the people to be there.

You have to pay

the power bill, you have
to pay the building.

So you can't run like, you know,
a little amount of milk through a

facility like that, that the kind of
facility only pencils and, and keeps

itself above water if it has volume.

And because we calf share and
because we're grass fed and those

two things are important to us, um.

It means we don't produce a ton of
milk per cow, so we need more cows to

produce, uh, the same volume of milk as
someone might get from taking the calves

from the cows and feeding them grain.

Uh, quite a bit more

cows,

um, in the long term.

What's really amazing though to me
is that in the last three years we

have fed precipitously less hay every
year, and we are grazing and feeding

precipitously more cows in that time.

our cow numbers have, are,
climbing steadily and our hay

numbers are going down steadily.

And I credit that with, with
excellent grass management.

Um, creative grass management.

We can talk a little bit because
I break a lot of grazing rules.

anD also just applying massive
amounts of carbon to the soil.

. Um, so we use equipment to do that
and we get tree mulch and um, and all

sorts of things, but we buy a lot of
straw and we compost a lot of straw.

We roll out a lot of straw.

Um, we're pretty much always
applying thick layers of carbon

to one pasture or another

and then letting it rest.

Cal: Yeah.

And we'll come back to more
on that in just a little bit.

Now, one thing I'm gonna ask an
obvious question, at least it seems

obvious to me now, but I wrote it down
earlier so you guys are not seasonal.

You're milking

year

Suzanne: is correct.

That is

correct.

And that's very different than
a lot of pastured dairies.

But they're selling to a truck.

They're selling

to a truck like say Organic Valley or
Maple Hill, and those other dairies

in their pool are balancing them.

So in, you know, let's just say
in Vermont, they're seasonal,

but they're getting, that means
organic valley's getting milk

from the southeast in the winter.

And that's why Organic Valley pays
more for winter milk because people

in North Carolina and South Carolina
are making up that milk volume.

But when you, when you're selling
milk to a, a small creamery, you know,

we're not pulling from five farms even.

We're pulling from two.

Um, so we're seasonal in the sense that,
like at the moment, I'm not breeding cows

because they would be calving in August.

Cal: Oh yeah.

Suzanne: I am, I am
breeding heifers though.

And we can talk about why I choose
to breed heifers to cabin August.

Um, it took me many years to come to
that conclusion and I didn't wanna do it.

Um.

But now it makes the most sense to me.

So that's what we do, but we're not,
except some maybe hard to breed cows that

are gonna be bred outside of a window.

Um, we're not breeding most of the
milk herd right now, even though

they're cycling we'll, we'll
breed them to calve September,

October and November a little bit.

Um, we calf very sparsely in December,
January, um, a little bit more in

February, a little bit more in March.

We cal a lot in April, a lot in
May, um, and quite a bit in June.

Um,

that, that's because in our
climate, we still are grazing

some pretty decent grass in June.

Um, and also it's just easy to get
the cows pregnant to have then.

Um, and we also need the milk
for mozzarella in the summer

because when people, um, because
people are so out of touch with.

Food and how it's produced that
they want to buy things when they

want to buy them, not necessarily
when the cow wants to make them.

So everyone wants to buy mozzarella
in July and August because that's

when the tomatoes are there.

Well, that's not really when
a cow wants to make milk.

Um, that's what the market wants.

Cal: Right.

Yeah.

Now one thing in talking about that,
and, and you mentioned this just a

little bit, you have few more calving
in March, April, May, June, or April and

Suzanne: when most of it is.

Yeah.

Cal: And then you have, so do you
have like majority Kevin in the

springtime or a small majority.

And a small majority.

And I just said that you
can't have two majorities.

Anyway, let's go with this, um,

in the

Suzanne: I hear what you're saying.

Cal: and then, then the time between
those, you still have a few more,

um, coming into production, but
not as many as those peak times.

Suzanne: Correct.

It's like a trickle

in, know, we might have
like a calf or two in July,

a calf or two in August.

Even the first two weeks of September are
pretty dastardly hot in North Carolina,

and I not to calf then.

Cal: Yeah.

Suzanne: but we, yeah, the vast majority
of our cows are spring, fall, seasonal

with a little bit more in the spring.

It used to be more spring than fall.

Um, it used to be more
like two thirds, one third,

two

thirds one third fall, but with the
creamery's need for milk year round.

Um, and really to lighten our
workload, um, because we calved, I

think we had 40 calves last April.

That's a lot to.

Deal with on a small farm.

Um, it's just a lot of
animals, fresh animals.

It's a lot of baby calves.

And so it didn't, I didn't do this on
purpose, but we have a lot of older

animals in the herd right now, and
some of them I wanted to give a little

bit longer of a lactation too, and
a little bit longer of a dry period

to like give them a little break.

I mean, some of these cows
are 12, 13, 14 years old.

Um, and, and so some of them
calved in the spring and they're

not gonna calf until next fall.

so that combined with some heifers
is gonna, I wouldn't say we're gonna

be 50 50, but it's gonna be pretty
close between spring and fall in 2024.

Cal: And while we're on the topic, you,
you mentioned about I'm breeding some

heifers to calve during this summer.

Why is that?

Suzanne: That is because my, my
attempts at seasonality with the

heifers failed too many times.

So here's what I mean by that.

Um, let's just say a heifer
is born in May of . 2023.

She will be a year old in May of 2024.

If I breed her at a year
old, that's too young.

If I breed her at 15
months, then she calves.

Let's see if I can do
this math as quickly.

May, June, July, August.

That means she would, ideally,
if I bred her at 15 months, she

would calve as a 2-year-old.

Right?

Cal: Right.

Suzanne: But that doesn't
always work out so well

because she might not be ready to
calve then like a 2-year-old to

is when the industry would calve

a dairy cow for the first time.

But that's on a ton of corn,
silage and grain, like very high

octane rations, and they're growing
that baby and they're growing

themselves on a grass system.

She is gonna grow more slowly.

And it's honestly those two year olds when
they come into lactation as two year olds.

I think they always look skinny,

a little runty.

They have trouble breeding back.

Um, and I really would prefer that
they calve in at like two and a half.

Well, now we get, we now we get into
the point they're gonna calve in

July.

So that's kind of what we do.

And we used to have this philosophy
that, well, we'll just save them and

we'll calve them in the fall and they'll
cave in at like two and three quarters.

Well, that works great if you can do it.

But what doesn't work great is
if fat heifer, particularly a fat

jersey heifer, does not breed.

And so we found ourselves with some
fat heifers that wouldn't breed

because we waited to try to get them
in that fall window 'cause they were

gonna be too small in the spring.

I've stopped, I've just
stopped messing around with it.

I've just decided that with the
heifers, I'm going to breed them

when they physiologically look right.

There's just people ask when we breed our
heifers and is there're a hard window?

No, I just can tell.

Like they just have a look about them.

They're starting to look a little rounder.

Um, they're getting, approaching their,
you know, closer to their full size.

Not full

size, but closer.

And, and I've only learned
that by trial and error.

So now I'm very content to calve
heifers in July and August.

Um, because it's, when they are
physiologically, I think the most

primed to do so, and I don't think it's
as hard on them as a 12-year-old cow.

It would be to calve in August

when they're like these spring and heifers
and they're two, two and a half years old.

I just don't think it's that, I don't
think it's as stressful for them.

And so it's also really nice
for us to get that milk at that

time of year because that's

when all the cows are like, dang, it's
hot out here and we don't want to eat.

And to have a couple, and

that's why we've started
calving year round a little bit.

It's just to have that
little bit of fresh milk.

, it can, in a, in a herd of our
size, a couple of cows calving

makes a difference in the milk tank.

Um, and it's nice to have a little
bit more milk at that time of year.

Um, and the other nice thing about
half calving and heifers at that time

is we're not calving in cows and we
can spend a little bit more time with

them in the parlor, because some of
them take forever to learn that process

and to not be freaked out by it.

Although we've started more and
more letting our, our young calves,

we bring our young calves in the
parlor now in order to sort them

off at night from their moms.

And we just did that because it's a small
farm, and that was the space we had.

And so we just used the parlor and
then shoved them in the box stalls.

But now it's great because this
group of heifers that's gonna calf

next year, all know they're, none
of them are afraid of the parlor.

They've all walked up on the platform,

they've been those head gates.

And so it was an accidental training
program, but I'm elated about it.

Cal: One thing, just a
little tangent on that.

Um, just

the working facilities

where your handling

pens for beef cattle,

I've started just anytime
they're up by the barn, I

send my beef cows

through it,

means

Track 1: it's so wise.

cal_1_11-25-2023_140704: are going
through it when they're young.

Um, that also means their first
exposure to going through it is

not a painful or traumatizing

experience at all.

And it just makes

everything flow

so much better when I
need to do something.

Um, so

I can see how that would help

a lot because, you know, I grew up on
conventional dairy and those two year olds

require a lot of time and
they don't like the barn.

Uh, we always started a month,
six weeks before they calved,

just training them to the parlor

and then

Cal: was

ideal.

And you know, on a farm you have

this ideal that you're trying to hit.

good years we did that.

But there's times happen.

We've got a heifer that calved
that hadn't been through the

barn And that meant, she
got a crash course and

yeah.

And that,

that always took so much more time.

And of course

be, I'll be honest, growing

up on a conventional dairy

and

the way we handled cows, um, growing up,
I'd handle 'em so much different now.

Um, my, my understanding, my,

my, the way I handle cows is just

so much different than we did

as a kid.

Of course.

It's just a, a mindset
that's changed over time.

Now, I

would assume with your two year olds
getting a little bit more time, so

they're a little bit ma more mature
when they have that first time.

It reduces some of the breeding
back issues you have of a.

First calf, heifer,

that

correct?

Track 1: Yeah.

They're just in better body condition
and . Uh, they're just going into

their lactation stronger and we
end up with the first calf heifers.

If, if for whatever reason I decide to
have them calve at two years old, they

will always get a six month dry period,

or at least a four month drive.

I mean, a much longer dry period
than a dairy cow would get.

Um, and that's one thing that my
totally seasonal friends cannot do.

They don't have the
flexibility, you know, so

they're cing these heifers at two years
old, and if that heifer doesn't breed

back and Calvin, and again at three,
she's out of the herd and sometimes

they're booting some really nice animals.

Honestly, I mean, I
understand why they do it,

but, um, your cost of raising a heifer
is so much that it seems to me the, the,

the marginal extra amount of time you're
gonna have to give that animal to make

that animal really shine is not that much
compared to all that you already have in.

Cal: Right.

And, and I, I can get that.

I also understand why they're
doing it, um, from a a beef

perspective, you know, if they
don't breed back, we wanna keep that

calving window ni or nice and short.

And I

know with, um, my dad's herd, we
always had a few straggler cows

just because they were good cows,
but they just didn't breed back.

And typically, to be honest, they
didn't breed back quickly on that

first lactation.

And then that, that
throws 'em out, sink the

rest of their life.

And we just dealt with it here.

But a lot of people are like

that Kevin Window, if they don't
make it, they don't make it.

But I I can fully understand giving
them a chance that 2-year-old,

that's a lot they're doing.

Track 1: it is, and especially it's
a lot they're doing without grain or,

cal_1_11-25-2023_140704: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Track 1: know, corn silage.

And the other thing is that their
primary goal in life is to produce

milk for us and . Although we run
them kind of like a beef herd in the

sense that they raise their own calves
and we, we harvest a lot of beef out

of our herd as a result from that.

Um, it's not as strict in that way.

that's

that's part of the relational
part I like about dairying.

Actually,

Cal: On your, your daring, you,
you mentioned, um, quite a few

times your grass base, but you
will provide energy in another form

if the grass doesn't have enough.

How do you do that?

Suzanne: we don't do that anymore because

we, we are really strictly a grass herd.

But I recommend other people do, if
you oats, um, molasses, um, I've,

back in the day, I, when I used to
have a few cows, I would use alfalfa

pellets or cubes and flaxseed oil.

I bought a drum, like a
55 gallon drum of flexed

oil.

Obviously that was very pricey, even
back then, but they just need the energy.

And so I was pretty dogmatic
about not using grain.

I think had I to do it all over
again, I would've just fed them

some low octane grain like oats and
then moved away from it over time.

Oats are a really excellent cow
food because they're slow to

digest, they're high in fiber.

It's not like feeding corn.

There's whole different world
feeding oats than feeding corn.

Um, uh, beet pulp, citrus pulp.

are really excellent feed choices
because again, they're high in fiber, so

they're, that's a slow release energy.

We used to feed a lot of molasses.

Um, we would put it on the bales of hay.

Um, and we fed molasses chips through
the head gates as a way of, um,

it's really a management tool, but
it was also an energy supplement.

We don't use them like that anymore.

There's certain animals.

Um.

Older animals that we're very fond of
or might have gotten a little thin,

or a heifer who needs some extra
help will sometimes feed chaff hay.

Um,

which I really, really
like that product a lot.

I've seen a lot of
animals turn around on it.

Um, animals that were too skinny or
malnourished, it's a probiotic feed.

It's all forage.

It's a, it's an ensiled alfalfa,
and I don't know how they do

this, but they make it so that
it's safe for horses in general.

in general, ensiled feed
is not safe for horses.

It can give them, um,
botulism like real quick,

but, but chaff hay, I
guess they test for it.

Um, but it's, it's safe for horses.

But we use that if we
need to have extra energy.

And I would say the only time we use that
consistently in our herd is we will use

it on the bull caps when we wean them.

Because I don't really think, unless
you have absolutely outstanding

forage, I mean, you know.

Stands of beautifully perfect green grass.

That's like just at the
right energy and all that.

I don't think you can
harvest a dairy anani, sorry.

I don't think you can wean a dairy
animal at five and a half months old or

six months old and put them straight on
forage unless it's like amazing forage.

And so we use, um, chaff hay for the
bull calfs to transition from their

mother's milk to being in the bull

herd.

They'll get that for a couple
of months and they don't get a

ton of it, but it's just enough

to kind keep them in a good way.

Cal: So just let me, paraphrase this,
make sure I understand, make sure.

So in the past you have done some
molasses and some did some things for,

for energy, but now you're relying

just upon

your grass

Suzanne: That's correct.

But our hay pretty nice hay.

.
It's, it's .Well, thank you.

I mean, I, I hope you would think so.

If you saw our cows, I would say
85% of our cows are in a condition

I would be proud to show you.

I would say 5% of our cows
are in a condition I would

not be proud to show you.

Um, they're just a stage of
their lactation that they're

thinner and they're older.

I mean, one of those cows is 14 years
old and she breeds back every year.

She's an awesome cow, but she gets
this point in her lactation every

year that she looks a little rough
and then she'll start coming back

the or around and look okay again.

And I would say 10% of our cows are
like, they're not in terrible condition,

but I wouldn't, I they don't look,
I'm not gonna take a picture of them

and, and show you that this is exactly
what I want a cow to look like at

all Um, but yeah, we're able to do that
because of the forage being excellent

and because I break some grazing
rules, which I'm happy to explain,

But just let me just, let me be clear
for folks though that the, what they're

eating when they're eating a hundred
percent forage is individually wrapped

marshmallows of, of small grain forage.

So they're eating wheatlage and millet,

if that's a word.

And they're not eating perennial grasses.

They're not eating fescue.

They're not even in eating
endophyte free fescue.

They're not eating like whatever
grows down the back 40 that

your neighbor baled and calls it
organic because he didn't spray it.

Like that is not dairy cow food.

I cannot

emphasize that enough.

None of those things are dairy cow
food, if you're feeding those things.

'cause that's all you had.

I really hope for your sake and that
sake of that animal that you're feeding

energy and protein, particularly energy.

Um, so just, I just wanna be clear like
what kind of stuff we're feeding that.

we're able to do that.

. And so what do I do mean about
breaking the grazing rules?

I will graze stuff sometimes when it is
way too tall, which is a rule that a lot

of people have broken over the years.

But then I'm careful and I I feed them,
say some hay that's that's really nice.

Hay at the same time.

So when they're eating
overly mature stuff.

But the rules I break more often
are having to do with rest period.

So, I'll give you an example.

There was a field last year,
pasture, H as in Hubert.

All, all our pastures
are lettered on one farm.

They're numbered on one farm and they're
the aerospace alphabet on the third farm.

Um, so this was pasture h and pasture
H only wanted to grow ragweed.

like period.

It just wanted to grow ragweed.

There was really no convincing
it to grow anything else.

You could fertilize it with organic
fertilizer, you could dis it up, you could

put something else in it and ragweed.

So I decided, well, if that's
what it wants to grow here,

then I'm just going to graze it.

Like you should graze ragweed.

'cause I noticed that the
cows really like ragweed when

it's like six inches tall and
they really do not like ragweed

when it is 12 to 18 inches tall.

So we grazed that pasture probably,
I don't know, nine or 10 times

in a growing season because
that ragweed kept coming back.

then, um, we put compost on it and
we, the next, this past year, so that

was last summer, this past year, we
drilled it with . A really diverse mix.

We, we use very, very diverse
mixes of what some farmers would

call cover crops or our forages.

So it's, uh, you know, these are all
things they might not all be in the same

mix, but it might be wheat, oats, cereal,
rye, rye grass, tri kae, um, all sorts of

different kinds of clover, vetch, turnips,
forage, radishes, I mean forage, chicory.

So-called tillage radishes.

They don't till, but we can talk
about why we use them anyway.

And brassicas rape, I mean, just anything
that we can get to grow in a pasture

that's diverse and that provides green
food for the cows we will put out there.

And this particular pasture that
had the problem with the ragweed, I

let the forage this, I didn't graze
it from October when we planted

it to June, I think it was or may.

And so I let that one crop just
grow into an absolute jungle.

I mean, like, you couldn't even drive
the four-wheeler through it because the

vetch would like stop the four-wheeler.

And but we managed to take this
one 10 acre pasture and we, we

divided it into about 25 strips.

So 10 acres divided into 25 strips.

There's some pretty small strips.

And then we put, we would put probably
a hundred cow equivalents on there.

When I say we're milking 80 cows at the
moment, we're really milking like 60.

But because we have all the, we have
80 mature cows in the herd and we have

all the young stock and we also have
the yearling heifers in that group.

So like there's a lot of animals.

In there.

And we grazed that, that 10 acres and
those 25 strips, and we made the strips

long, so that increases t trampoline.

Right.

And

decreases utilization like they're
gonna poop on more than, and walk

on more than they're going to eat.

And then we did not disturb
the soil in any way.

We do a lot of disking, but we
didn't just this plant, this

particular shot, and we no-till
drilled summer annuals right into it.

We never had the, the, the ragweed
come back and we didn't have

horse nettle in that field either
because it couldn't possibly

germinate during all of that time.

Um, and so I mentioned that because,
because we plant annuals, I will,

I don't care about the recovery
of other plants, so I'm not

interested in like a lot of our pastures
on the original side of the farm where

they're numbered at AQ is what we call it.

They have fescue in them.

Toxic fescue, which you can
make fescue less toxic without

planting endophyte free fescue.

So that farm, I don't care if
they overgraze overgrazing is

defined by time, not severity.

So I don't care if they over graze,
meaning they graze it once and then

they graze it again 10 days later
if it works in my plan that day.

And they just need something
to eat for a few hours.

And there's, there's fescue out there.

If, let's just say they grazed it, I'm
making this up, but let's just say they

grazed it on the first of the month and
they grazed all of, and it's this time

of year, so it's like towards winter and
they've grazed all of the oats and the,

the stuff in there they like and they've
left the fescue because I, let's just

say, had something else for them to graze.

And cows will always leave fescue alone
if they have something better always.

They have to be pretty hungry.

Do you wanna eat that dastardly plant?

And let's just say it hasn't rained
for 10 days and that that other stuff

hasn't grown back significantly.

I might put them in there again and let
them, now they're more hungry because

let's just say we've run out of the
rotation and I'm gonna, even though it's

only a 10 day rest period, I'm gonna
put 'em back on that pasture again.

And I'm gonna let 'em
work on that fescue now.

And, I find myself breaking all sorts
of rules when it comes to, um, rest

periods because I'm always, I'm focused
on what I'm focused on in that pasture,

which might be eradicating a particular
plant, or it might be trying to make a

particular plant come alive by exposing it

or, you know,

Cal: yes.

Suzanne: breaking back other stuff.

And I found when I do, if I'm un,
if I'm willing to break . , you

have to know the grazing rules
before you can break them, right?

Like, I couldn't break grazing
rules if I didn't understand them.

A lot of people first need
to understand grazing rules

and why rest periods are important and
why you can't graze, even if it hasn't

rained on a pasture, that you want to
come back even though it's been 60 days,

like you might, it's not ready to come
back yet, so you, you shouldn't graze it.

But because I'm managing for different
things, I often find myself doing

very disruptive grazing patterns.

And it seems that the soil
really, really responds to that.

And I learned from Alan Williams,
who's one of my favorite authors

on grass fed all things grass fed.

And you can read 'em in Graze's Magazine
as well as the Stockman Grass Farmer.

Um, he talks about the, the law of
disruption and how important it is.

So.

We will sometimes graze this
one drives my daughter nuts when

she has to build the pastures.

We'll sometimes graze in a labyrinth,
like I will actually create a

labyrinth for the cows in the pasture.

And you have to really understand cow
behavior or you could get yourself in a

mess because they could, all 80 animals
can get to the center of the labyrinth

and like feel boxed in, and then they're
just gonna break down the fences and have

Cal: Oh yeah, yeah.

Suzanne: But I create little
exits in the labyrinth.

But the plan, but the basic plan
is they still have to walk in

this giant, very irregular non
cow like pattern in the pasture.

And so they distribute
their manure very well.

They, they're gonna touch the
perimeter, which they normally

wouldn't do it in mass.

Sometimes we graze the
fields on diagonals.

Um, sometimes we might let them have
access to the same field for three

or four days and not break it up.

Um, but just always thinking
about how we can disrupt that.

That soil and that grass differently
than we have before has really

resulted in some real coming
to life, I believe in the soil.

Cal: Oh yes.

One thing you, you pointed out there,
you've gotta understand some of the

grazing rules before you go and break 'em.

So, so practice and get, get
some of that knowledge before you

go doing the rest.

like had talked earlier, know, you started
out with dairy cows, it sounds like very

early in your journey, but dairy cows are
a whole different beast than beef cattle.

And if you start on beef cattle, which
I think is a nice entry level on that,

dairy cows are, are a whole nother level
or like multiple levels above them.

Suzanne: that's true.

Cal: Yeah,

Suzanne: Um, but I did have
other . Animals before dairy cows.

I didn't have cows, but I
had, um, goats and sheep.

And so I was the least familiar
with grazing patterns and basic

ruminant

husbandry, um,

before, but when the number one
question we probably get is from people

is like, can I buy one of your cows?

And the answer is just no, you can't
because I, I knew what I was like

when I had never done this before
and I won't subject my cows to that.

Um, I'll put them in
the freezer before I do

that.

Um, although we are gonna be selling
a very select number of cows into very

specific, um, environ environments
over the next couple of years, and

I've finally figured out a way I
can do it that's okay for my heart.

And

I feel like I'm putting the
cows in a bad situation.

But I always recommend people
start with two bottle steers.

And, and the reason I do say that
is because steers dairy steers are

so difficult to raise on grass.

And if you can learn to raise a dairy
steer in this, they're difficult in

the sense from an energy point of view
because they don't have their hormones

and they're really not an animal that
was designed to make flesh from grass.

Because the difference, the core
difference between a beef cow and a

dairy cow is simply that a dairy cow
uses fiber in the form of grass to

make acetic acid, which makes milk.

And a beef cow uses fiber
in the form of grass to make

proponic acid, which makes flesh.

And just because a, a jersey or a
Holstein steer can't make milk, doesn't

mean their physiology is any different.

So they still make milk.

It just goes nowhere

Cal: Yeah.

Suzanne: in a sense.

I mean, obviously they don't make milk,

but they're not making flesh.

. And so I, I've always advised people
to start with two bottle steers because

if you can keep them in good condition,
if you can make them shiny and fat,

then you can handle a dairy cow.

You're not gonna necessarily know all
the other things about having a dairy

cow like ketosis and milk fever and
things that are specific to lactation,

but at least you're gonna understand
the metabolism of the animals.

And it's so much more of a high
octane game than a beef cow.

As you're, as you're saying, I
often describe to people that

having a dairy cow is like having
a, a race car, whereas having a

beef cow is like having a boxed car

and it's just, you know, it's
a whole different animal.

And you better know how to drive a
car before you get in that race car,

'cause you're gonna

crash.

Cal: Yeah.

Wonderful conversation.

But Uh, and we haven't even covered
half my things I've wrote down in

talking to you, but it is time we
transition to our overgrazing section

where we talk about something a
little bit deeper, a little bit more.

And I think for today we are talking
about applying carbon to soil.

Suzanne: All right, so do you
want me to answer why or how?

Cal: Uh, we want both answers.

It's a

deep dive

Suzanne: so why is simple?

Because it belongs there and we
are the ones who have taken it out.

We've taken it out by excessive
tillage and not covering the

soil with our, even if we haven't
done so as consumers directly.

We've done so by our food choices
when we wanted corn flakes.

That's what the consequence is, that
we've taken carbon out of the soil

Cal: and just jump in real quick,
right there, that's an important

point that you make probably,
that's not lost on our audience.

Like it might be some other people,
but our food choices, um, what we

are buying to eat is dictating some
of these actions that's happening

on farms that we may not agree with.

that's a very good point to make there.

Suzanne: Yeah, so we're
all complicit, right?

So I drove by a a, a Nebraska feedlot
once on the highway with a good friend

of mine and he said, Suzanne, don't look.

And I said, I am gonna look.

And of course I saw dead animals, like
with their legs up and bloated in the sun.

And it was terrible.

But I said, you know, something I did
today was complicit in those animals'.

Death, not, maybe not directly,
but there's a choice that I've made

as a consumer and as a human being
that makes that life more likely.

And I think we all have
to kind of own up to that.

Um, so because the carbon isn't in the
soil anymore, we have to put it back

and there's some really heroic stories.

And these are my mentors and my friends.

And so I'm not in any way denigrating
what these guys are doing.

And they're mostly men of
using massive cattle herds.

I'm thinking of like Ian
Mitchell-Innes in South Africa.

Um, massive, massive cattle herds
to put carbon back in the soil.

In fact, Ian Mitchell-Innes was so
successful at this, that he actually

just had to sell half of his land
because his land became so fertile that

he couldn't buy enough cattles to keep
up with all the grass he could grow.

That's astounding in South Africa,

so we can, people are reading these
stories and reading stories of Greg Judy,

and Joel Salatin, and they're really
great stories and White Oak Pastures

in Georgia, and they're all true.

You can do tremendous amounts with
just cow feet, poop, and hooves.

I mean, you really can and urine, but for
most small stockholders, you do not have

the animal impact, nor the acreage, nor
the rest time that you're gonna be able to

make a measurable difference on your land
in your lifetime with the stock you have.

It's not that you can't make a
difference, you're just not gonna be

making those kinds of differences, and
you're gonna be really disappointed.

Because you're not achieving the results
that you know are possible biologically.

But the way that everybody can
achieve those results starts with

putting carbon on the soil because
we all can find some carbon.

There's always leaves from the neighbor.

There's always wood chips from
the, from the local tree company.

There's always some some sort
of composted carbon or composted

carbon you can get from your
local county landfill or wherever.

There's, you can get corn
cobs from the neighbor.

I mean, there's something organic
of organic matter containing carbon

that you can put on that soil.

You can compost it or not.

Sometimes we do, sometimes we
frankly don't have the time, the

equipment or the space to compost it.

So we just put it on and let it rot.

Sometimes we just let it rot.

Sometimes we put it on and we
then apply, a biological product

that has microorganisms and all
sorts of little nutrients that

help break that down faster.

One of my, the one we've used is . From
a company called Terra Biota, I

think, and it's called Crop Recycle.

It's really fun to watch
it work in a couple weeks.

That stuff like breaks down really

dramatically

and you can disc it in.

Um, but oftentimes we just let it rot.

And so this year we applied probably
250 tractor trailer loads of shredded

tree mulch onto our pastures.

There was people, I mean, our guys
were working on that like full time.

And then it didn't rain for six weeks,

Cal: Oh.

Suzanne: however it rained
anyways, and my life not enough

to make the forage grow radically.

I was still in drought like everyone
else, but the dew every night fell down

those plants that were perfectly created
to have little funnels for the dew.

And they went into a soil
that was full of carbon.

And so even though that carbon
hadn't broken down yet, even though

it had not yet turned into soil.

It was there, it was there
to absorb the moisture.

And all of those plants, even
though it didn't rain, were

verdant grain the entire time.

And now that it has rained, they're really
growing because that carbon was holding

them together and keeping them alive.

And to me, applying carbon in
the soil is the most exciting

thing that we do, even though it's
sometimes really, really monotonous.

I'll never forget the August where we
rolled out a hundred bales of of rye hay

that the friend of mine was gonna burn.

And I was like, no,

don't burn them.

paid a guy.

I paid a guy to haul them.

That's the thing about applying carbon.

You're gonna have to pay people because
most of us do not have the equipment.

Even though I have a big farm and
we have big equipment, we still

pay people to haul carbon because
it's so much, but it's so worth it.

And, um, so we paid someone
to haul the bales over.

We rolled out every single one of
those round bales on the pasture.

The cows, to my shock ate some of them,
even though they were old and kind of

rotten and the rest of it just rotted and
that pasture was never the same again.

It was, it was always an okay
pasture after being a moonscape.

So applying carbon to me is like the
single most transformative thing we

can do, and I would put it ahead of
livestock management is the thing

that most small stockholders can do
quickly to notice a result quickly.

I rotated animals on Kentucky 31 for
years and didn't see much improvement.

I'm not saying there was no improvement,
but there wasn't major improvement.

But in a single season of applying
carbon, there is a noticeable improvement.

Cal: I, I think for, for instance, just
not even if you, if you are unable or

unsure about doing that wholesale and
doing a whole lot, if you take a bell

of hay roll it out there, it's amazing.

You can pick right where
you rolled that hay out.

Suzanne: Oh yeah.

Or even, I always tell people
like, if they have a square bale

of straw in their garden, look what
happened under the square bale when

you left it there for two months.

You, the earthworm castings were amazing.

I mean, there's just life.

That to me

is the most exciting part
of, of grass farming.

Cal: Now, you've mentioned a couple
of different sources of carbon.

You mentioned old hay, uh, you just

mentioned straw, but also
wood chips and stuff.

Where do you go to find
carbon to bring in?

Suzanne: I have literally chased tree tuck
down the road in shoes that weren't tied.

I'm not kidding.

You like pulled over on the side of the
road and start like running down the road.

And like, if I can catch them, like
when they're turning in someplace and

I'm like, behind another truck, I'll
like pull off and I'll chase them down

and I'll be like, hi, I am Suzanne
and I have a farm down the road and

I have an easy place for you to dump.

That's what they always want.

They want an easy

place you to dump.

They want gravel.

They want it to be . , whether it's
rain or shine, muddy or not muddy,

they want an easy place to dump.

So that's essential.

You have to give them an easy place to
dump and you have to make it so that they

can dump when you're not there, ideally,

so that they know that they can
come to your place whenever they're

in town, they're ever passing by.

Like, so they don't have to pay
a dump fee at the local dump.

They can just dump your place and like,
you better make it so that that pile

that you dumped last time they dump
last time is moved or whatever, so

that the next time they can dump again.

So my so chasing down tree just cold
calling tree companies, um, they are

very happy to work with people, but
like you cannot be fussy about it.

You cannot be like, oh,
you hit my mail box.

Like, Oh,

well.

Like,

you know, like they're giving you a gift
and if you make it easy for them, they

will want to to be there and they will.

So we always give all the guys on
the tree companies Christmas gifts.

So we give them

hams and um, you know, five pounds
for every person in their company

gets five pounds of ground beef.

They get milk.

I mean, we really treat them very well.

Cal: I, I think it's a great thing
because, like you said, they're,

they're running a business and they
want to, that's just a hassle for them.

They want it dumped and outta there.

They want

it easy.

Suzanne: And just developing
relationships with everybody you

can.

That's always the name of the game,

Cal: You know, I.

I don't wanna say everything,
but everything to relationships.

Suzanne: That's right.

You never know when you're gonna
use your friend that you're gonna

need the friend you made yesterday.

So just like never burn a bridge and
always, always, always be kind to people.

Cal: Yes.

Yeah, I on that.

Yes.

Anything else you wanna add there before
we move to our famous four questions?

Suzanne: Everything in the grass
world requires patience and,

and a great deal of observation.

So just recognizing that the things
you do this year, you're not gonna

probably see a result on until next year.

And just to have faith in it is
sometimes hard because it's hard.

It's hot, you're losing
money, you're losing sleep.

You have prickles all over you
and it's not uncomfortable.

But just like keeping the
faith is really important.

And so encourage yourself with, with
other people's stories and other people's

photos and, and building yourself up
will help get through those times when

it just seems like you're like rolling
out stuff on the earth for no reason.

Cal: Yes, and, and a real shameless plug,
you know, listen to the Grazing Grass

podcast to hear about others' journeys.

Anyway, our famous four questions
we ask of all of our guests.

Our first question, what is your favorite
Grazing Grass related book or resource?

Suzanne: Sarah Flax.

Uh, the Art and Science of Grazing,

I breaks it, breaks it down
really simply for people.

My husband also wrote the foreword it,
but I, don't, that's not why I that book.

Those aren't the kind of books that I
read, but when people want to, and I

say that because I already know how, by
the time that book came out, I already

knew how to do the things in that book.

I tend to read really old books
or yeah, I tend to read a lot of

really, really old books or but for
people looking on how to do this,

I would say that book is
the simplest to understand.

Cal: Oh, wonderful.

Our second question, what is
your favorite tool for the farm?

Suzanne: The manure spreader
because that's what I use to spread

carbon, and that's my therapy.

When I feel like I've had too much
people time, or too many phone calls

or too many meetings, I love to get
on the tractor and spread compost

spread anything.

Cal: Yeah.

Suzanne: It's just so satisfying.

Cal: Very good.

And thirdly, what would you tell someone?

Just getting started?

Suzanne: It's a long game.

So pace yourself

Cal: Yeah.

And you, you touched on that
patience a little bit earlier.

Yes.

So true.

Suzanne: and find friends and your, I
think the number one thing that I tell

people is that . Your friends don't have
to be ideologically aligned with you

to be friends and to be helpful to you.

So many people in this movement
are looking to find people like

them who found farm like them and
Hubert and i's very best friends in

farming do not farm like us at all.

And they're conventional in every way.

They think we're nuts or they did.

They're starting to think we're less nuts.

bUt those are the guys who
showed up and helped us.

Those are the guys who
showed me how to ai.

Those are

the guys who showed up at nine o'clock at
night when our hay baler broke and they

bailed hay for us all night before a rain.

Um, those are the guys who sell us hay
and, and we have relationships with,

and, and I think those relationships,
it's just so important to show honor to

people even if you don't agree with them.

And I see so much

like turning up people's
nose at farmers because like.

Ugh.

You know, they use GMOs or they, you
know, they're farmers and they're

doing the best they can with what
they've got and what they know.

And they still know a lot more than you
about a lot of things, and you really

would do well to be friends with them.

And I've just found the richest
friendships there and like,

they're just beloved to me.

It breaks my heart because most of
them die of cancer, to be honest,

because the way of farming is so toxic

and that part just stinks.

Like I've been to way too many funerals.

Um, but I'm still really
glad they're my friends.

Cal: Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Comes back to those relationships.

And lastly, where can others
find out more about you?

Suzanne: I probably pour most
of my self into two things.

We have two Instagram accounts at the

moment, although I'm really
considering only having one.

One of 'em is called reverence.

Farms Reverence dot farms, the other
one's reverence underscore home.

And the reverence underscore
Home one is where I teach like

kind of how we do things and

talk about natural cattle treatments,
how we graze, how we establish pasture.

And then the other resource
that we've, we've started doing

for folks to give people a much
deeper dive on individual topics.

It's something we call the Stockholders
Exchange and you can find out

about it at allreverence.com.

So that's just all reverence one word.com.

And, um, there's a, a monthly
membership fee and every month we

send you two one hour videos of Hubert
and I discussing a particular topic.

And Hubert and I are funny because
we, our husband, wife, we, we,

our foundation is the same.

But we don't agree about everything.

And we have lively discussions about
how we do things and why we do things.

And he's an expert on some things,
and I'm an expert on some things, and

we definitely defer to one another,
but it's truly a conversation.

And it's where we get into like
the nitty gritties of what we do.

And we do our best to share with others.

Our, our mission is to teach.

And, um, this is our, the beginning of
that educational program, but we're hoping

to do more and more conferences and
workshops and things so people can sign

up for our newsletter on our website.

And there's a grower's
newsletter you can sign up for.

We're also, um, starting in a store
where we're not just gonna sell meat

and dairy and stuff from the farm,
but also, um, products that we use.

And we hope to bring that
store online pretty soon too.

But we're, we wanna make things that
are available only to us because.

Either Hugh's a veterinarian or we
just know about certain things like

little products that we use, kind of
like tips and tricks and, and things

that we found that work over the years
and to make them available to people.

And we have, um, an, an open door
visitor policy on the farm and we have

three miles of trails, so people are

welcome to come hike.

And we have some on-farm
stays that are opening up.

And, um, we're a pretty welcoming place.

So we, we encourage people to come
visit and and to, to meet us in the

stockholders exchange where we, we talk
a lot about dairy, and a lot about the

way we dairy and, and try to make some
of that less of a mystery to people.

Cal: Very good.

We will post those links in our show notes
they're easy for our listeners to get to.

Susanna, we appreciate you
coming on and sharing today.

Um, we could have talked
a lot longer, I'm sure.

Suzanne: Well, there's a lot of, we,
there's a lot of ground to cover.

Grass fed dairy is something that, that's
not really been around for very long.

And it, there's, it's a
mystery to a lot of people.

So

why we have the stockholders
exchange to, to help people with it.

But thank you so much for this podcast.

It, this kind of stuff did not
exist when I was first starting.

It was the Stockman Grass, Marmur
Graces magazine and whatever

books I could read about beef.

I used to be the only dairy person
at these grass fed beef conferences.

And they were always
like, why are you here?

And I was like, because there
are no conferences for my people.

So it's, it's, it's a growing movement.

cal_1_11-25-2023_140704: it is.

Thank you for coming on.

Really appreciate it.

Suzanne: Thank you.

I appreciate you.

I hope you have a great day.