Grazing Grass Podcast sharing Regenerative Ag Stories

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[00:00:00] Today on the Grazing Grass Podcast, we're joined by Doug Jobes from the Noble Research Institute. Doug grew up in rural Georgia, served in the 75th Ranger Regiment, and eventually found his way into wildlife science, range ecology, and ative ranching. In this episode, we explore something we don't talk about enough,

wildlife and grazing and how the two fit together. Doug walks us through nesting cover, roost trees, habitat needs, and how regenerative grazing can actually expand opportunities for your ranch. From hunting leases to ecotourism, to wildlife photography, there are many possibilities producers never even consider.

If you want to understand how your grazing decisions ripple through the landscape, you'll get a lot out of [00:01:00] today's conversation. You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, where we help grass farmers learn from grass farmers. I'm your host, Cal Hardge, and let's get started. Hey, ranchers ready to start 2026 with a sharper focus on profitability.

Noble Research Institute is kicking off the new year with two powerful courses. First business of grazing, January 21st through 23rd in Bossier City, Louisiana, you'll calculate gross margins, analyze real world water and fencing investments. And build grazing plans that turn business goals into daily action. Then Noble Profitability Essentials,

february 4th and fifth in Ardmore, Oklahoma, you'll plan for positive [00:02:00] net farm income, create full budgets and use ratios to benchmark your ranch and remove what's dragging down your bottom line. Noble pairs infield research with ranch management expertise, giving you practical real world solutions.

Visit noble.org today and start your year strong. On the farm, this week we turn bulls out. That puts our calving dates right around the end of August, 1st of September next year. It is always exciting to think about the calves coming. For 10 seconds about the podcast, inside the Grazing Grass community, we posted photos of our new hats, and they are now available in our Etsy shop.

Just go to grazing grass.com and click on merch. We are also doing some t-shirt [00:03:00] orders. We'd mentioned probably about a month ago on the podcast. They'll be ordered in December. So these are pre-orders for T-shirts. Special pricing, if you wanna order before December 1st, t-shirts are $20. Hats are 25. Go to grazing grass.com, click on merch, and you can go to our store.

And we really appreciate the support here at The Grazing Grass. Grab yours early and support the show. Secondly, we're pushing to hit 1000 subscribers on YouTube. Before the end of the year. I think this morning we're setting at 81 subscribers until we hit 1000. If you enjoy the podcast, head over to our channel and hit subscribe.

I'll put a link in the show notes. It'll help us reach more graziers and grow the regenerative community. All right, enough of that, let's jump into today's episode [00:04:00] with Doug Jobes.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: get started today, can you tell us your name and a little bit about you?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: sure. Yeah. So. My name's Doug Jobes. I am originally from the southeast. I'm from Georgia. That's where I was born and raised. Like a lot of folks who

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Okay.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: in ag and even in the field of agriculture, I was, where I was raised around it very rural area of, of central Georgia. And you know, up in that area was surrounded by row crop agriculture and, and a lot of

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: farming.

Most of that which is, which unfortunately is all gone today. And I think that's kind of a story that's repeated many places in, in mo most of the country. But always had, always had just an interest in being outside and, and working in in agriculture and, and wildlife and, and all those types of things.

So spent most of my time in the outdoors. I can [00:05:00] remember there was corn crops around us. My, my dad had had leased a little bit of ground for a, for a free range turkey operation.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: was, that was an interesting time period.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: a little bit about turkeys and, and raising turkeys.

How they, how they smell. Wow, that's a, something that sticks with you for a, a couple of years actually after they're gone. Even,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah, I, I imagine so.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: that, that was kind of a memorable part of my, my childhood. You know, raising hay, that was something that was important too. We'd, we'd cut square bales and raised hay for our horses and that kind of thing.

So, just like, like I said, being like a lot of folks who are in this field interested in it, you're kind of raised around it and it's kind of a part of who you are and, and what you, what you like and enjoy. Went through high school, graduated I, I did a little short time working in the industrial trades.

I was a, a maintenance technician, started school with that, but it just [00:06:00] wasn't wasn't scratching that itch. So, I decided to go into the military and spent some time with, in the 75th Ranger Regiment. I was a four time volunteer. Spent quite a bit of time training. Went through my basic training there in Georgia at Fort Benning.

Was, went through Airborne School there and then at the time, that was called Ranger Indoctrination Program. Did all that time there at Fort Benning, Georgia. And then I was, I was sent all the way to the East Coast from Fort Benning, which if you know anything about Georgia, that's only about three hours to Hunter Army Airfield, which is part of Fort Stewart, Georgia.

And I was stationed there with the first Ranger Battalion. Spent three years with them and considered staying in for a career. But I had I had applied for college to a small agricultural college there in South Georgia called Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College, or better known as abac.

Folks from the region would know that [00:07:00] name and was, was accepted there. And, and so I decided to, to shorten my stint there in, in January of 2003, I started college. And that's really when I kind of the more of the ag related programs and wildlife. And if you know, going to college, being young, I most of the work that was associated with, that degree field. If you, if you did anything on the side, it was ag related. of, most of South Georgia is either pine plantations, cotton, peanuts truck farming, strawberries, that sort of thing. So I was, again, just kind of writing my element, was able to find jobs easy. Did, did a lot of work in row crops and did a little bit of crop scouting and worked for a cotton research facility.

Sue was where my wife and I at the time lived. We, we lived on a, on a farm there that was cotton and peanuts and some pecans. Or if you're from Georgia, it's pecans.[00:08:00]

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: so, so again, you know, just being a part of that and it's always been something that interests me. I was given the opportunity to, to do an to transfer to University of Georgia undergraduate.

And so I did that and part of that transition was, I was offered an opportunity to help manage a small cow calf operation up in north central Georgia, outside of Athens. And that was a, a great learning opportunity and environment for me. The the owner there was very progressive minded. He was actually a retired animal science professor from UGA.

And so we were incorporating a lot of things that even at that time would've been considered a little less conventional. He was just, you know, thinking outside of the box and applying some some rotational grazing, some cover crops and that kind of thing. Things that we really spend a lot of time talking about, thinking about in a regenerative mindset or regenerative [00:09:00] ranching.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Doug, was that your first exposure to that?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah, that, that was my first exposure to, to like a, a true livestock operation. So, there on that, that place and, and in, in that part of the country, a a 300 acre spread is, is fair, is not small. We, we ran around around 30 to 40 cows. And then depending on around 50 replacement heifers we would kind of operate at that scale.

But a lot of hay production had a little bit of irrigation that we had to take care of and maintain. Of course, fence line, that kind of thing. But yeah, that was really my first first experience with, with managing that type of operation and taking care of things and, and I was very, very enjoyable.

Learned a lot and, and really liked it. It was something that has stuck with me for for a while. And so, you know, the ball keeps rolling. Did a, did my undergraduate at University of Georgia, stayed there. For three, for three years, finished that. And then I I had an [00:10:00] opportunity go to graduate school in Oklahoma.

That just kind of fell in my lap. I couldn't turn it down. So, we made the move, my family and I made the move to Oklahoma. And then this is really when things kind of kicked off and really you, you, you work and, and live in the, in the Great Plains, the central Great Plains. You know, cattle production and grass growing is very important.

It was a little bit

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yes, it is.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: which I appreciate. It's more, more of the rangeland type country. But was able to find employment that first summer I moved to Oklahoma with a, a pretty large operation there in central Oklahoma, south of Stillwater. And was able to use some of my experience in.

That I'd gained there in the southeast, working with livestock there for, for the summer, which again, was very very rich and learned a lot like I said, a little bit different operation, bigger operations. Did that and then started graduate school in the fall and finished [00:11:00] my graduate program in natural Resource Ecology and Management in 2011.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Very good.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Had some experience with Noble back then, as, as things continued was able to get this job with Noble back in the early summer of this year. So kind of things kind of come back to themselves over

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: And what do you do at Noble?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: So I'm a regenerative ranching advisor, and one of the, one of the major things that we're focused on right now is delivering our, our Noble courses, our Land Essentials course.

And that's one of the things that we are really focused on. That's delivering those courses and helping landowners and producers really kind of understand the, kind of the basis, the basics of regenerative ranching, regenerative mindset, and that's those, you know, ecosystem processes the soil health principles, and, and really trying to establish that foundation in that base for, for folks to kind of understand and [00:12:00] get a good basis of knowledge so that they can take it back to their operations and apply some of these and, and help them out.

That's, that's what we really wanna focus on and keep people on the land and them to be be productive and con continue to, to. Do the things that we, we all enjoy and are so important.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Just continuing on that for just a second about that Land Essentials course.

Is that geared towards someone who's already running livestock? Is that geared towards people owning land trying to figure out what to do? Is it someone who's to regenerative bug and they're trying to do it and they need to refine their skills?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah, I think all the above. We, we've had in the in the courses that I've been involved in watching and, and helping teach, we've had a little bit of all of those folks that you just described, whether they be new landowners, where they be more established and trying to fine tune and tweak some things.

Or even, even had some folks who, you know, had been [00:13:00] conventional for quite some time attend those classes. And, and it's interesting because, you know, all, all of their, their responses and questions are a little bit different, you know,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: so it's a, it can be a challenge, but that's, that's all a good thing.

You know, we challenge ourselves and challenge people's paradigms and how they think about things. So.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I think those courses that Noble's putting out are wonderful, and I haven't got to attend all of them, but I have attended one and plan on attending another one soon, so I'm excited to see how all those go.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Yeah, they're very engaging. I, I'll say we put a lot of effort in facilitating that's, and that's one of the words that we use. It's not, it's not really teaching, it's facilitating. So we're trying to, we want to be engaging to the learner and, and have them kind of, as, you know, go into the course, you know, kind of develop your own answers and think, and, and it's all about really working together to help people come to the, these [00:14:00] conclusions because they make sense.

And

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yep. Mm.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: And, and just going, you know, with my background in education the great teachers are facilitators. They're, they're able to help that student reach that next level, whatever that is. And they're just not a dispenser of knowledge. They're there to help that student construct their knowledge and build upon in it.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree with that. And I, and of course not having a education background, but having, having in the past dealt with a lot of people. One of the, so I, what I didn't tell you, moving down to Texas after I finished my graduate work I was a private lands biologist here, man, one of my roles was, was dealing with the public.

That was one of the things that they had told me they'd warned me about when I started my college program was like, you're gonna be dealing with a lot of people. so I think and that, that's certainly what I did here on a daily basis, lots of people Texas has done a great [00:15:00] job of promoting wildlife and, and land stewardship conservation.

And so we were, we were really out there a lot. So where, where I'm going with that is, I think that whole kind of facilitating and being supportive of people and, and meeting their needs has always been very important. And these, these courses, the way they're developed and the emphasis that we put on facilitating is, is really top notch and in my opinion, and, and I, so, so it's an extension of that, being able to help people and when they ask questions, what does the audience think?

And I always thought that was kind of interesting, you know, let's get other people engaged because I, I found it to be so true dealing with, conservation message, man, it's so much more powerful when it comes from others who are doing it rather than the teacher. So it's

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: thing that you mentioned.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah, and, and Doug, that's a great transition. You mentioned wildlife. I, you've got your degrees in wildlife or [00:16:00] ecosystem. You're gonna have to correct me on this. I did write it down, but where'd I write it down?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Well, so my master's my MS is in natural resource ecology and

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, okay.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. And you can lump, you know, you'll hear range of ecology and management, wildlife science, all those things are really tied in together. My, my undergraduate, because being from a university in the southeast is forest resources.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: so it's a

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: science and forest resources and

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah. Not, not so much in the Stillwater area can you do that? Unless you're worried about the red cedars,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: right. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: but. With your, your wildlife. So you come at, you're coming at this land management, and so often we talk on here about grazing management and how to do it and someone's journey into the

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: regenerative

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: practices and doing it. But one thing we don't discuss a whole lot is wildlife. So how does, how does wildlife [00:17:00] and grazing go together?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Well, I, I guess, I guess I'd pro I'd preface that by saying, you know, it's it's kind of, it's kind of easy for us to to say that our, our, our land stewardship, our, our conservation ethic when it comes to production agriculture, it's easy for us to say, well, you know, it's good for the wildlife and, and always it, it, it can be, there's always a give and take to our production systems.

And I think that the regenerative approach is really a, a great step above because it incorporates those ecosystem process. We're getting really trying to encourage folks and producers to, to think about the system as a whole. So it's that, that system's thinking process and it's really what is, is really what's so important and, and it absolutely can benefit wildlife.

And we see that on the noble ranches. We see that on some of [00:18:00] our, some of the producers who've who places that we've been on, but. There's always a, a give and take. And, and I think that's important to, to understand and it's, it's setting a, a realistic expectation for the producer. It's not the end all be all for wildlife conservation.

We're still trying to produce a, a, a product, whether it be beef or some of those other products. So I think understanding there's, that there's that little bit of flex and give and take, it can be beneficial to the ecosystem and to wildlife. But we're still trying to get, we're still trying to produce and, and, and, yeah.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right, so, so when we think about wildlife and grazing, the business is still grazing. So you gotta be conscious of that depending on what you're doing with the wildlife.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yes, sir.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yep.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. And one of the, one of the great things that, that I, that I've seen just kind of continue to grow is these, these additional enterprises related [00:19:00] to wildlife, whether they be ecotourism. And you can lump so many things in that these are opportunities for producers to make to have additional income.

And, you know, nobody's, nobody's turning that kind of stuff down. Whether, whether they be a hunting lease something that's growing in popularity is, is more the ecotourism stuff. But wildlife photography a growing industry gaining popularity. So in, in my mind and with my background for the producers than what, what a great opportunity for them to say, well, I'm, you know, have a regenerative mindset.

I'm already, I'm thinking about the ecosystem process, how maybe, you know, I'm still being productive and profitable and I'm, I'm, I'm doing what I love and what I need, but here's another opportunity for me. And I, I think that opportunity's growing. Because as, as more land becomes developed then there's, there's more demand for places that people are managing as wise [00:20:00] stewards and have some of these populations of wildlife that they can, they can enjoy.

So

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I wanna go down that trail more and, and discuss some of those ways you can make profit with wildlife or another income stream for your farm. But before we dive more into that, when we're thinking about managing for more wildlife, we, if you consider our audience and say they're already doing

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: regenerative

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: practices, do we just continue doing those or do we add some other things in?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah. So, I think if you're, if you're already doing regenerative practices you're, you're already going down the right road. But as I mentioned earlier it, you know, if we think about, if you think about regenerative ranching, regenerative farming you're always. know, we, we are, we're thinking about how we can be adaptive.

We can make these, we can make these minor adjustments here, change here. [00:21:00] So, very general, very generally speaking, I would say if you're interested in managing for more, for even more wildlife, well then, then think of ways that you can maybe slightly adapt some, spec, some of your specific management practices to even encourage more.

Whether that be, you know, maybe I'm, I'm planning some cover crops for upland game birds. Maybe, maybe it's something, maybe I wanna do a little bit more of that. So it's, it's. Being adaptive and still working under that kind of give and take model mindset of thinking about because then you have to ask yourself, you know, what wildlife species you're interested in managing for?

may be perfectly satisfied. And I, and I think you probably could be managing for a more of a generalist species, something like white-tailed deer with your current management strategies. But you're finding if you're, if you're finding more interest in maybe songbirds or maybe wildlife viewing maybe you [00:22:00] need to adapt your, your management a little even more so to kind of target more of those grassland songbirds.

If you're in, say, the, the Great Plains region and you already have native range, maybe there's some things you can do with your stock density or with your, your grazing. To increase to increase the nesting height of, of grass cover. there's all these sorts of things, and I think it's fascinating because you can really go down all these different roads.

When we talk about wildlife, there's really, you're opening up a whole other universe to thinking about what species. Are they more of a generalist? Are they more of a specialist? Do I already have some? So

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: You, you mentioned something right there. Should we take a inventory of what wildlife, wildlife we have on our farm presently?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Sure. Absolutely. It'd be a great place to start because one of the things that we, one of the things that we really talk about and, and

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: with people are realistic expectations. [00:23:00] And I think that is the great way to frame where you're headed, where your, what your future plans might be is, is, is yes to to, to do some sort of inventory, to know what you have before you, before you get started.

I, I can say that there's been times where I visited with, with landowners and producers who were interested in managing for certain species and, and, you know, do you have any, that was typically like one of the first questions because do you have any of those already? Well, I don't, I don't know, but we'd like to, well.

Okay. That's a, that's a much taller order

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: because the wildlife that occur on your, on your property, under your management they say a lot about your, your management. If they're there, hey odds are they, like what you're doing in particular spots. So locate, identify what you have and then educate yourself.

Reach out to folks who, who know and can help you to expand on those populations that you already [00:24:00] have on your, on your property.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I know when we look at the land base right here, my dad's land, it is not a place we see very much activity from deer.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Okay.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: It, it's, we don't have too many trees. We have a few deer, but not too many. I've got leased land right next to dad and that place I may jump deer up all the time.

It's just crazy. And my other lease land, just more timber in that area. But right here on dad's land, we don't see many, um, deer. We do see a lot of birds, a lot of upland game birds as well. So that's a consideration. I could see how that makes a difference.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Mm-hmm.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: what I'm wanting to do, and I'd mentioned we would hit income streams later, but that may, as you think about, may affect what kind of wild wildlife you'd like to manage for. Because I know some of my lease ground, the owners do not want hunting there. Air.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Mm. Yep. [00:25:00] Yeah. So, what your, your example there and, and in my opinion, my thoughts behind this are you know, realistic expectations. If your if your property doesn't have a lot of timber know, that's a pretty, that's, that's, that's a very important habitat for whitetailed deer. And so this is something important to consider, but you make a good observation too.

You notice next door, they do have 'em. So being, being the observant people that we are as regenerative minded producers, you're able to identify, say, what's different about that place versus my place? So it's not only taking that inventory of your place, but understanding and knowing what the habitat requirements are for some of those wildlife species that you're interested in.

Okay, how can I how can I improve my, my operation or my property, or some of the small tweaks of changes that I can make to how I do things to attract those species.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: When I think about wildlife, and I assume other people are guilty of this, [00:26:00] I think mainly about species we hunt.

I think about whitetailed deer, I think about ducks. Doves have become recently interested. It interesting to me because I've had some people contact me about hunting dove here.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Ah.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: And then I've talked to Land Trust and you know, they talk

about photography, which was not even in the realm of what I thought about, but

that's a potential.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yep. Yeah, that's a. The, that that sector of the outdoor recreation is is growing. And I, I saw a, a a published study it's been a few years ago now, on, on on particularly about wildlife photography, that there was, there was more monies contributed to local communities or, or it was a growing sector and, and drastically outpacing even hunting and [00:27:00] fishing was people interested in just getting out and seeing and photographing.

And, and one of

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh wow.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: that is because a lot of the, the photographers are very, to bring up your word, are very passionate this, you, you may have heard about people who have their life list of birds,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Cal, we've had, we've had some bird sightings here in Texas that bring people from all over the country and from people from out of.

The North America to see it, to capture, take a photograph of a bird. And, and so when we think about wildlife, that's, that's great. That's great that you mentioned that because I do think that sometimes we kinda get our blinders on. We, when we talk about wildlife in regenerative in the regenerative mind, a landscape, we, we, not, not purposefully, but a lot of folks just kind of tend to think about what's about hunting.

It's about, it's about three or four different species.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: but in our, in, in our courses and, and where we talk about this ecosystem process and these community dynamics, it's, it's all of these [00:28:00] species, these, the, the pollinators, the, the bird species, the we, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about wildlife and, and so it's, it's all of those things.

And I think that that a great message and something that we can encourage even more folks to, to think big picture and, and all of those different species.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Onex thing that I didn't realize and watching Roots So Deep pointed this out to me was. The difference in your wildlife population on your land base versus your neighbor

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: can

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: be entirely different the only, not the only thing, but the fence line being the only physical

barrier. Obviously practices are different and stuff and I really hadn't thought about that until Roots So Deep watching that documentary or docuseries and they discuss discussing that.

So I started paying attention to our scissor-tailed [00:29:00] flycatchers here. We always have 'em here. Usually I have one or two or a few on my fence down my driveway. And I watched that earlier this year, I think in May. And I started watching. I didn't have 'em down here and I. That confused me. 'cause I, I always love seeing them and I see 'em often.

We baled

hay a little bit later this year. It was really good on precipitation. So we baled hay, we baled all of this area down here. So once hay was baled, you know, we went through and chopped down much more than we planned to into, and I still don't see any scissor tails down here. But what I did notice them, we have a driveway, a quarter mile to the north and we didn't bow any of that 80. And I just u used it for grazing. I had my Scissor-tailed flycatcher, roosting on the fences up there.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great observation. Yeah. And it helps you to, helps you to kind of [00:30:00] understand. Well, because the next question would be, well, well, you know, why is that? Well, is it, is it just the hay? Is it just me removing that, that forge? Well, no, he goes a step deeper. Them being for those birds are forging on insects or those insects present it's likely that they're not as abundant.

In that hay area as they are versus the, the stuff that you left for kind of standing, forage. So yeah. Great, great observation. And you know, those, those types of things we could discuss.

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doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: I, I, I would tell you here an interesting one that I have some personal experience with in sandier type soils,

a lot of people struggle historically with gophers. There's many

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: of gophers. But what what I found really interesting is that when a species becomes rare or, or I say not seen very often in a region popularity [00:32:00] tends to grow. And, and what I'm talking about specifically is something as the American badger.

Not very many county records of where I'm at currently, but they historically occurred here we, we ended up, I got a call about one being hit on the road, a badger. This lady called there, there is something in the road. I don't know what it is. I've never seen one before. So I go and investigate and it was a badger.

And the, the majority of their diet are gophers.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: In fact, when you have when you have really sandy soils in a lot of gophers, historically you would've had badgers. And that was one of those, it's just, that's, that's where they live. That's their food item. Just like the fly catcher and the insects that you observed.

So, so where I was going with that is we had had a landowner who was. Who had years ago had stopped poisoning. Poisoning for gophers is a very common

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: [00:33:00] Uh oh. Yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: they, cause issues in hay production and those types settings. And they had stopped doing that. And so what had happened in this area is there was a badger that had, that had done its thing and, and produced offspring.

And so every badger population and the amount of interest in that was just phenomenal. Something as benign as a gopher is the, is the reason that you have species in an area. So that's just a small example of these levels and, and how these things play with one another and really ties in well to how we talk about the ecosystem process and, and not a, not even going down the describing the benefits of the soil from, from gophers, but just seeing the presence of a badger really changed a lot of people's attitudes and

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: A problematic species historically, so.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. When we think about these potential income streams, and, and I'm going to assume for a lot of people, [00:34:00] additional income stream is, is going to be something that may make 'em take more interest.

There's already people out there that's interested in wildlife and they're paying attention and they're, they're trying to be conscious of their management practices and how it affects them. But being a potential income stream may cause more people to be interested. If, if you're like, Hey, I've, I've been doing regenerative practices, I'm grazing cattle, which is gonna be most of the people listening, we do have some small ruminants in there. Whatever we're doing, if we decide, hey, there's a potential for income

there, how do we go about that process to improve it and to get to that point that it could be a income stream.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Well. I, I would say it, in, in my field, it's never been, it, it, it hasn't seemed to be difficult to find people who are willing to lease or to, to enjoy your property. But I, I will [00:35:00] say, and I think you, you brought up an excellent point, and, and some of the folks who, who we lease from or, or we know of, kind of don't want that added responsibility.

There can be some, some issues with that depending on where you live, but I, I've never experienced it difficult now in a obviously being in, in Texas, there's, there's a great huge demand for opportunities to hunt and, and

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: private lands. I guess one of the ways I think you, you know, utilizing something like Land Trust is a really, a interesting tool for, from a, a landowner's perspective in my opinion, because I do think that have a

strong opinion about what, what you said, and, and that is profits when we have the ability to make generate additional income. Wow. That goes a long ways and I think it tends to, to really drive itself. And I think once once the wheels really get under it and start rolling, I think you're gonna see more and more people talk about it spread the, the [00:36:00] information to their friends because it's, it's a great tool.

And whether you're using a, a company like Land Trust or a platform like Land Trust or even just word of mouth what a, a great opportunity. And I think I think it's there. I, I really do. And, and growing and I think it's gonna continue to grow.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: One thing you mentioned there was not having a problem finding people interested in using private land. And I can confer with that with the number of people that knock my door,

knock on my door, asking about hunting, whether it's ducks, doves are pretty popular right now. Deer always this time of year especially, I

start getting a lot of door knockers

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yep.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: and I know for land that I lease out for hunting, I have no problem leasing that and it continues well.

But when I think about some other aspects like using Land Trust to get some other [00:37:00] people or other uses in, do I need to change some stuff about my management

or what what would be beneficial to help enhance that experience?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Well, a lot of times we, we have the ability to, and I say we as if you're a landowner producer, you have the ability to for lack of a better term, capitalize on species. Such as, say, say, you mentioned to morning doves. A lot of people knock doors to ask for permission to hunt on, whether it be wheat ground or cultivated ground, or just just brush country or waterfowl.

Those are migratory species. So if you encourage the use of a species like waterfowl, all you need to do really is retain some more water on your property. How do you do that? utilize your existing water sources is the most, is the most effective way if you have ponds. If you have swamps, or if you have areas that, that are attract waterfowl.

So [00:38:00] really that that's almost a freebie. If you've been blessed with rain, you know. Reach out who, whoever you have to, to talk to, to maybe get the word out. I, I would encourage people to, if you're trying to get if you're trying to promote the use of, of your property for a lease or for something like that, just make sure you do your due diligence.

I, I always encourage people to you know, put it out there, but have some sort of a interview process if you, if you

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, okay.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: to, to kind of help protect you a little bit and, and help you you know, kind of sure you're getting, getting what, what you expect and, and those types of things. But as far as management goes, when, when you're talking about there, there's some free resources that the, the morning dove and waterfowl, things like that, they're just using your property as they migrate through other species.

You may, you may have to tweak some of your management a little bit. If you're talking about white-tailed deer [00:39:00] Maybe, maybe you're trying to promote you want, you wanna see more white-tailed deer, so you're thinking about kind of reaching out and maybe advertising for a deer hunting lease.

Really deer being generalists. If you have 'em, you're obviously doing something right. What, what I've talked to folks about too is if you're able to get someone to lease the property and they find interest in it and they wanna come back, well then what are some of the things that you can do to continue to promote that?

And it may be that you need to, maybe you want to increase fawning cover. And so you, would you think about some areas that you wanna you wanna let rest more? Maybe like you were talking about in your standing forage, you want to have some, some higher grass in the in the spring and early summer months while, the fawns, the, the does are fawning. there's some simple things like that, that you could adjust and, and change to increase your deer population. That, that's one thing that kind of [00:40:00] comes to mind. There's, there's certain areas that people manage for upland game birds and they're more into the cover cropping and, and leaving residue for those.

So I'd mentioned earlier, but maybe that's a practice that you wanna look into and take out a little bit more of your pasture land and put in some cover crops or something like that, that help hold those birds in longer into the hunting season. So there's, you know, it's really a lot of different things you could do to, to help and to make some of those minor adjustments.

But, but honestly, I think if you have people knocking on your door or you know, of people that are interested, that's the first step because then like you'd well mentioned there. Where they say, you know, money talks. And when, when you get

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: you know, someone wants to dove hunt on my, on my pasture and I say, you know, I, I'm not really, I don't know.

I'm not sure what you know, what, are you willing to pay me to hunt here? May have let you hunt here, you and your son hunt here for an afternoon. I don't know. Just so start [00:41:00] that conversation and see where it goes. I think, I think a lot of people would be surprised.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: O one thing for us, which my dad and I talked about on his place, maybe we should look into Land Trust or doing something. We have some nice water ar areas here. Numerous amount of people fish here.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Hmm.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: We have wildlife hunting, quite often. A couple of the bigger ponds are the last to freeze in the area, which makes 'em really nice in those bad weather conditions because the waterfowl will congregate there. But throughout the 50 years we've been on this land, when we weren't using it, if someone wants to use it, we just let 'em use it. It's a, a change, going there, and then we'd have to, to, you know, get the people who's just showing up here [00:42:00] to know that this is no longer just a, I hate to use the word free for all, but

it it almost is.

'cause Dad tells everyone, come on over, we've got it.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Where, where are you guys located at?

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: N Northeast, Oklahoma. Yeah. We'll have all kinds of people here. We won't give an address, but it's like, I'm, I'm like, we've gotta slow down on telling people they have access.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah, I, well, I find myself kind of in a, in a precarious situation here because we reminisce and talk about the times when you could knock on a door and and, and ask someone if you could walk their back fence line to bird hunt or

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: in their pond or shoot a few ducks off. And, and unfortunately those days are kind of slipping away.

There's still some areas of the country where you find people who are who, who are still okay with that. So I, I'm, I'm, you, you've caused a, a moral dilemma here for me to,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: but I mean, know, honestly, those days are, [00:43:00] are gone. I think everybody would kind of realize that. So I, I don't know, Cal, that's a, that's a tough one.

If you, obviously, if you, if you advertise your place as a, you know, something that you're gonna lease, then you're gonna have to stick to that and tell other people that, you know,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: right.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: available. I think everybody knows that. But that's a, that could be a challenge for sure. And especially in parts of the country, I know there's a lot of people who have been to areas where people have hunted property for years and years.

Especially, like if you get up into areas where there's a lot of bird hunting, like Kansas pheasant hunting, and people push the same dry corners and same sections for generations, and now all of a sudden it's leased out.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: that's a tough one. But man, those, I think those days are here.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right. And, and I think when we think about the, the family farm here and keeping it together and keeping it going, we have to be conscious that's a potential income stream. We, [00:44:00] we may not want to go that route,

but it's a consideration. Yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yep. And just like I would say with any enterprise that a producer's involved with, you know, there's, there's gonna be a little bit of give and take, and I think you need to treat it like that. You know, really go into it being careful, set realistic expectations. You know, you're gonna have somebody on your property that you know, is not family, is not a friend.

They just have made a contractual agreement with you to, to pay you. So it's a little bit different. And especially being in, rural America, that can be that can be a challenge. But I, I can tell you that a lot of folks from our more urban areas are very interested in coming and experiencing what you have and what you kind of, and, you know, have taken for granted for, for many, many years and for a long time.

Not saying that that's a bad thing, but they're. There's a growing demand to, to come and en enjoy that and experience it [00:45:00] so.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right. When we think about people coming onto our land, is there some special considerations? You know, the first thing that comes to mind is insurance. And then are we going to have to be physically present for some of this? What do we do when they're here?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah, Kyle, I, I can't really speak to a lot of that 'cause man, things are so different depending on where you are.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: My experience, down here in Texas private property rights I mean, it, they're gonna vary depending on state to state where you are. I would always encourage people to visit if, if, so that's, that's a great question.

If you're interested in, in considering leasing or making, having an additional enterprise, I would reach out to some of your state resources, specifically game ordinances in the area because they deal with that kind of stuff, and they'd be able to give you some great advice

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. Excellent advice [00:46:00] there because you don't have to solve or come up with the answer all on your own. There's people out there that,

that, have knowledge that that are more involved in it, that can help you with that.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Mm-hmm.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah.

And sometimes it's not even the wildlife, they just want to be have access to ride four wheelers or something.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Who would've thought that 50 years ago people would, would, you know, fly into a, a small community to, to see a, bird?

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: it's, it's, it's amazing to think of that.

But then, so how, as, as people who are interested in, you know, regenerative, the regenerative mindset and regenerative ranching, how, you know, how do we utilize that to help our message to help producers? And that's like, you know, this stuff's important to people. And so I think it's a, it's a great opportunity for us to.

Help kind of promote that from the producer standpoint, but also just the message as a whole is, it's about the, it's about the [00:47:00] ecosystem processes and all those sorts of things that we teach and believe in. So,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: On that path just a little bit, getting people out to your, your farm and seeing what you're doing. We as a population has became so removed in some areas from agriculture. So that is just a really po or can be positive thing. Things see animal production and how that's managed, how that affects other things and, and why if you're selling direct to consumer, that might be a another reason that person wants to buy their animal protein from you.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah. Yeah, that's true. I, I'm not sure, i'm not sure of its popularity. I know that I've certainly heard more about it and, and but, but programs put on by the Audubon Society, that Bird Friendly Beef. I don't know if you've heard of

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: but I, but I have met with folks who are involved with that and, and, and I don't know all of the details [00:48:00] behind it and requirements, but that is a perfect example of what you talk about.

And, and I, I can think of several other models that have grown in popularity within the past 10 to 15 years. There's and, and what it's attempting to do is to try to incorporate some of that market force because it's powerful. I mean, you know, like I said, you know, money talks and, when it, when it comes down to being able to make a little money, I, I can give you another example that I think is really interesting and has grown in popularity.

And that is from, in the realm of, of wildlife photography. So, there's been. There's been a lot of interest in people taking photographs of various types of wildlife, so they developed a competition. It was a rather local group. They developed a little competition. Well, before you know it photographers can be competitive too.

I guess they start coming in from all over. They're, Hey, there's

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: there's some money. involved. But, but the, the [00:49:00] key to this, it was bragging rights. For the ranch, it was bragging rights for the producer. Hey, where did you take that photo? Oh, it was on this property. And that gets advertised.

They actually now developed a book that you can purchase every year. It's called Wildlife and Focus. So they, they, they've developed this market driven competition to encourage to manage, for, manage a resource that otherwise would've gone. It's, it's certainly not hunting. It's a non-consumptive use.

You can take the photograph or you can shoot the bird. You can shoot the animal with your photograph, with your camera, and then another person could come shoot it too. So

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: that's a, that's another great example of how people are incorporating this. I know there are others out there, but the, those types of programs and things are trying to incorporate that conservation ethic and mindset and helping helping producers, manage for those. And I, I'll say kind of to, go back to, to some of that is, is in my, in my mind, the regenerative [00:50:00] ranching. There, there are a lot of things that line up really well with, with the, his, historically what we talk about in, in wildlife management. So to me it was an easy fit

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh

yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: to, sum that transition from conventional to regenerative is a great bear, is a, is a great mountain to climb.

But for me, coming from wildlife conservation mindset and that I mean it was easy. We've been talking about some of this stuff in wildlife conservation a long time since the. Since the field developed really I, I think some of the concepts pre predate the, our, our regenerative mindset for sure.

And, and thinking, we been thinking about, you know, grazing, distribution and carrying capacity and stocking rates and all that stuff that, that's part of the core curriculum for understanding how to manage for wildlife.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: You know, and, and I mentioned this earlier, that Roots So Deep docuseries, um, they talk about the, the [00:51:00] bird population on different, the AMP managed

grazing versus the conventional grazing and just the enormous difference there. It was quite shocking to me.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah. Yeah. Kind thinking about a, a, a list of. species that I was looking at the other day, the habitat requirements for those bird species. There's some that are of great conservation concern that we've lost deal of their numbers over the past 60, 70 years since we've been monitoring.

And

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: some kind of goes back to your comment and thought about when we typically think about wildlife, it's normally the hunting species, those species that we've hunted. But there's some relatively obscure grassland, bird species. And I say obscure. If you were to see these birds, most people wouldn't be able to identify 'em.

But we know through conservation work that [00:52:00] their populations have, have been dwindling at an alarming rate and they're tied specifically grassland habitat. so what a, a, a great opportunity for us to, again, to on that, on that conservation message and, and be able to

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: management.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah, that's a great example there with let's pick one species. I wanna pick this species because we see 'em in the area, but we didn't for years. We're starting to see more of them,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Mm-hmm.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: but we have not seen them on our property. And I know for my dad, he talks about all the time, he'd love to see him and. We've seen them up the road a half mile, so we're starting to get some in the area and that's wild. Turkeys,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: what, what do we need to do to improve our habitat for wild turkeys?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Well, so you're northeastern Oklahoma.

The first thing that I would do to think about [00:53:00] without seeing your property knowing you have 'em in the area is my first consideration, and this is just based on, previous observation and work. Focus on nesting cover, nesting cover for wild turkeys is very important. And in the regions that I've worked, that's, that is typically the most, the, the number one limiting factor.

Now I'm speaking in general terms here

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: right.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: hard for me to give you specific recommendations, but just at least thinking about nesting cover will help you in some of the other habitat requirements of, of Turkey. so nesting cover, and I could go into a little bit more detail with that. And, and we can, but then another one would be roof site, roost sites.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, okay.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: That's an important habitat component that is often limited in regions that I worked. So, as you know, turkeys roost in trees at night when those trees, they like to be in close proximity [00:54:00] to large trees with relatively low hanging branches, depending. But that's a means of escape for them and, and roost, roosting habitat is, is important.

So that one's a fairly easy one to understand, but not very easy to address. If you're lacking roosting cover on your property, a lot of times you either have to do some, some work around roost trees or you have to think long term and how can I get more roo trees on my, on my place, which takes some time.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Particular species they prefer for roost trees, or just they're looking for limbs, what, 10 foot off the ground?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Some of the work that's been done with, with, with Rios, and I'm, I'm sure this work's been done with Eastern, which is likely what you have in

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oklahoma, is the eastern subspecies roost sites. Roof sites typically are trees larger diameter, older trees with large assay, low hanging limbs.

But it's important that those, that [00:55:00] the understory of those trees be relatively clear. If you think about,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, okay.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: These turkeys need to be able to literally jump and fly into trees with, with relative low, relative ease, but also it's important for those trees to be kind of an open understory so that predators don't have ease of access to those low hanging limbs. Like they would say if you had, maybe in your partic particular example, you have a, a large red oak species with a low hanging limb and you have some cedar trees growing up underneath those that would, would be an area that I would think about clearing and, and, and opening up some of that.

'cause those, those eastern red cedar trees can grow into the canopy, allowing species like bobcats and things

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: to, access those roost trees at night. So that's getting into kind of some of the

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: and those may change depending on where you are in the country, but that would be maybe more of a, a, a suggestion geared toward your particular context.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: And then you mentioned nesting

[00:56:00] cover. Is that

more like what we're talking about for fawn cover as

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: well

Yep.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Letting some taller grasses into the spring, which I'll be honest, we're not good about that because typically what happens, we're going into winter right now. We've got some stockpiles, we've got some taller pastures that we rested. But, We're gonna go through and run through all of those this winter. And by the time we get to spring, we're gonna be ready for new growth.

Um, I'm assuming to have that cover, some of that old growth would be beneficial.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yes, sir. Yep. So that would be another, another great example of where you as the producer would maybe be trying to. Flex just a little bit to think, what's, what are these turkeys worth to me? I know, you know, I wanna be a good steward and we'd like to see more turkeys. Well, not saying that you should put a, that you would necessarily put a dollar amount on that, but when it comes to you [00:57:00] know, flexing a little bit into, ah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose a little bit of my standing forage.

What does that mean for my bottom line? And that's where, where I think it's so important that we, that we think about the, the value of wildlife. We've, for, for so many years, it's been we don't put market value on wildlife. We stop doing that during the market hunting day. That was one of the reasons why we have a decline in wildlife.

But what we see now is a shift where there is a market value for, for wildlife, specifically those that people wanna hunt. And so. to kind of morph your example in particular. Say say you'd been approached by someone and they're really interested in Turkey hunting. Well, I mean, I have a few, you know, we don't see a lot of them.

It's gonna be worth more to you. Maybe it's worth so much. You say, you know what, no, we're not, we don't want to hunt. We don't want anybody to kill what we have. We, we like to see 'em on the property.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: intrinsic value, but you're, it's a complicated discussion because you, you as the [00:58:00] producer, and everybody's gotta make that decision, okay, hey, what's it worth to me?

Am, am I gonna, am I gonna leave a little bit of standing vegetation and lose some of that potential stockpile forage so that I can have some nesting habitat? It's just one of those considerations. But, but a good, a good example, good thought there on that.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I know for us as, as I learn more about grazing, always trying to expand my knowledge there's some. Areas of thought that's like, you should be resting this pasture for the whole season. And that's a whole year, not just for a season. I, I probably said that wrong for a whole year. So I, I'm looking at that and thinking that's something I need to incorporate a little bit in to let this land have some time without that pressure.

And that really gives opportunity in that area. If I'm doing a portion of the land each year, that gives me the opportunity to give that kind of nesting cover. It also means [00:59:00] I wanna delay that initial grazing in the spring on it probably, or, or change the way I manage that.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yep. Yeah, you're absolutely right in, in something that, to even take that a step further and to really, to really kind of challenge the way we think about things maybe maybe you strategically pick areas on the knowledge that you've gained on the habitat requirements for a species like Turkey.

Okay. So, you know, if I have to give up a little bit of my standing forage, what if I do it along this particular riparian area I

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Uh, yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: good adjacent brooded rearing habitat? Hey, you know what, there's a few roost trees in there. They may not have been used, may, maybe they're not being used currently, but I'm making these minor adjustments, so, so educating yourself, learning what those habitat requirements are.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull out of that [01:00:00] pasture. It's right along that riparian area. I'm gonna focus my efforts there, let it rest growing season, maybe just to kind of see what results I get. So that, that kind of adds another little level of complexity there in, in how we, how we think about managing our, our properties and may, may make some small scale adjustments that may, in the short run, in the short term influence your ability from a production standpoint, but can help you achieve some of your goals for that, for that other enterprise that other interest.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. I, I love that, that thought pattern there and, and what we can consider. Doug,

before we switch gears just a little bit, anything else to add on wildlife and grazing? Anything we may not have covered that you're like, hey, we should have talked about.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. There one thing that I, I would like to mention, you know, kind of goes back to what we talked about with the realistic expectations and, [01:01:00] and when we talk about grazing, I think it can be separated into two major kind of schools of thought, or maybe that's not the correct, the correct terminology.

But similar to the example would be to how you historically, how we think about wildlife those few huntable species. Typically, when we say the word grazing, I think a lot of people want, they clump, they lump all of the grazing together, and in my mind, in my background, there is rangeland. There's more of the native.

Range land. And then there's more of that grazing that occurs in, in more of what we've historically have called improved varieties or non, non-native forage species that have been help, help producers be very productive in the past. So I think it's important to think about that in your context where, what are you, if you, if you are in certain parts of the country, you, you may predominantly be rangeland, which influence the [01:02:00] wildlife, and

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: areas you may be more of that introduced pasture system.

So that's, I think those are two important things to, to realize too, because I, you know, I don't wanna come across as just giving general recommendations because those two systems are, are, be, as many people know on your podcast and know, know, those are different settings they have to be managed slightly differently or in some cases a lot different.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Excellent point there. In my context, we're mainly dealing with improved grasses

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Hmm.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: in our management there. I do have some lease land that's got native pasture, so, so that's a little bit different management for both of those to make sure they're reaching the potential I want with them.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Sure. sir. Yep.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Doug, it's time for our famous four questions.

Same four questions we ask of all of our guests. Our first question, what's your favorite grazing grass related book or [01:03:00] resource?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. So, my fa so it's not a grazing book, but there is a chapter in the book that I think a very good basic understanding of, of grazing, I'll say wildlife, but it's specifically towards, bobwhite Quail.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: done a fascinating job of explaining to good concepts.

And that is com plant Communities, which is a great, I mean, you could dive into a deep conversation about what plant communities are and how they change over time depending on your, your, your grazing approach. And, that book is called _Beef, Brush, and Bobwhites_. It, it's, chapter in the book is called Grazing Management, and it's, it's certainly regionally.

It's, [01:04:00] it's in a regional context. Okay. It's important to set, but, but do a good job of explaining it, Hey, in this region. So it, it, but, but I think the, the simp, the simple approach to it talks about how important the cow is to habitat management. How you can shift and move plant communities via heavy, cattle use versus moderate versus light cattle use.

Those are terminology that's kind of been historically used to to describe stocking is light, moderate, or heavy? I think it's an excellent chapter that people that are interested in wildlife and, and bobwhite quail particularly would gain some interest in. And, and one of the fascinating parts about that chapter is it goes back to some examples from the 1950s specifically of, of these adaptive grazing models.

Look at seeing the benefits of those rotations and rests for species like bobwhite [01:05:00] quail. So I thought that was kind of interesting. Talks about some systems that we, we talk about today, and sometimes they come across as being brand new, but, but

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Right.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: they've been, discussed in the past, again, like I've mentioned before in, in the wildlife conservation arena.

So,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I, I usually say at this point, excellent resource. I have no knowledge of this resource, so I'm pretty excited because I'm gonna go look this book up. Bobwhites are something we'd love to increase the population here.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah, so Cal, the, the author Dr. Fred Guthrie and Dr. Fidel Hernandez, Dr. Fred Guthrie was at OSU he was my major

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, go pokes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, excellent.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yep.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I will have to look that one up, Doug. I appreciate

that.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: sir.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: My wife will be so happy. I have another book I want,

but that's, that's beside the point. Yeah. If only that's all there

was.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: it's a, i I I, I have kept, I've kept this book by me for many years. Not just because I [01:06:00] have personal connection, but it, it really is designed to be something that is simple to read. I, I like the, the way that it's written,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: it's not, it's not academic, it's, it's for the manager and for people who are really interested in understanding simple concepts, applying them.

So,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Excellent. For our viewers on YouTube, could you show us that

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: sure. Yeah. Yeah. I got a little bit of a glare there. _Beef, Brush, and Bobwhites_.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: All right. I will be

looking that up. Thank you. Our second question, what's your favorite tool for the farm or ranch?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Well, I have a, I have a tool that I, I would say that is growing on me quite a bit and that I've mainly been it to people. And that is the Rangeland analysis platform. That's a, a, a product, say a product. It's a, a, an application, a web-based application that people can use to. [01:07:00] Look at historic ranges of, of forage production on their properties.

There, there are some limitations to it. It typically does a little bit better job at scale, so larger properties, but I encourage all folks to kind of look at it and play. But it, it does some really cool things using lidar imagery. There's they've just announced in portions of the coverage, they're doing 10 meter resolution.

So you can get,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: you can do 50. It, it'll project from 1986. It will tell you 50% of your average production. It'll also tell you a hundred percent of the average production. So it'll give you this, this map, this chart, if you will, of what your grass production has looked like since 1986 and give you those lows and highs.

Just a really cool tool to to look at and, and see what, see what's going on.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Is that an app or a website?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: It is a web based, it doesn't run well on, on smartphones, but it's RP for short [01:08:00] range land Analysis platform. And there's actually some really cool tools that I, that I appreciate liking kind of history and stuff.

But you can go can go through, I think it's at the top of that webpage. You can look at partner tools there's a column or there's a title of historic imagery and you can go to your particular farm and you can literally swipe the screen backwards and forwards and it'll show you, I believe that imagery's from the fifties.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: it's a, a great tool to help people. 'Cause we talk about land use and the history and how it impacts the, and how it impacts things today. I think it's so important for people to see, oh, this is what it looked like. my dad was young or when I was young, this is what it looks like now.

How have things changed and why is that so, it's a, it's a neat little novel tool that I like to recommend to people too. But it's all, it's all on that rangeland analysis platform

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh, okay. I will have to look that up.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah, it's cool. I I

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. [01:09:00] Our third question, what would you tell someone just getting started, whether that's in wildlife, in ag, in region regenerative management,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. I think the the best piece of, best piece of advice that I would give people is to realistic expectations that will cause you to think and to investigate. I'm, I'm certainly not good at it because I get I get impatient and I

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: right? Yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: but over the course of the last.

Several years with my time working, as I'd mentioned earlier, working with a lot of people and their, and their land is man, it's it's, it's often I say disappointing, but to see people who have really put a lot of effort and spent a lot of time and resources in something that, if they would've maybe done a little homework or, or as you mentioned, there's lots of resources.

We don't have to learn these things by [01:10:00] ourselves. They've just reached out a little bit. They could have saved themselves quite a

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Oh yes,

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: and, and frustration. We so for someone just getting started is to really focus on that plan and, and having some, some realistic expectations. And I understand that's tough, but would be my number one piece of advice.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I heard something one time. It is a church, and it was talking more about

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: what

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: the Lord can do in your life. But I think it applies to goals in life. And a lot of times when we look at those short term goals, six months a year, we overestimate what we can do in that amount of time.

time But when we start going long term. You know, 10 years plus, we underestimate what our

influence can be over that.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: That's a good, that's a good point. I like that.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: And

[01:11:00] lastly, Doug, where can others find out more?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. I would encourage

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: I.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: your listeners if they haven't already to go to our Noble website. There's a amount of, of resources there. I, I point a lot of people to that too in my interactions. But one of the things, if people, one of the easiest ways is to go into the website, it's noble.org, or as a lot of folks know, all you have to do is that in your search bar and hit enter.

The, the, there's a tab on the Noble website. It's articles, and man, there's a great resource and most questions that people have that someone from Noble over the past several years has written a really nice article about it, and it, and it it's a good resource. So that would be, that would be number one is to go to noble.org and, and check that out and navigate the website.

There's all sorts of courses that you had mentioned earlier that I think are, are good and helpful for folks. Yeah.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Noble.org just has a ton of information available there, [01:12:00] as well as information on the schools, but lots of

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: imformation.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: information there. Yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah. A lot of, a lot of extra information too. Yeah. Yep, for sure.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Doug, I didn't warn you. I have one more question

and I failed to warn you about it. Do you have a question for me?

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: Actually I do now, but I would like for you to repeat what you told me about the goals short term, because that I'd like to ponder on that a little more.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Well, with, with goals for short term goals, we often overestimate what we can do. But when we get to long-term goals, we underestimate what we're capable of and, and really got that i, I can remember the, the church sermon where I heard that, and that was relating to the Lord's ability to work through us or with us.

But really I think it just applies to our goals in general

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah,

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: and our [01:13:00] ability to, if you continue on something, you can accomplish a lot.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: yeah. Yeah. You've, you've probably heard the quote before too, and, and I may. Get this off a little bit, but, but I've, I've used it, at least in the mindset is, is, you know, the best time to plant a tree is, well, the best time was the past.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yeah.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: best time is now.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: your quote kind of makes me think about that and, and posterity too.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Hell yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: prosperity, but posterity. So

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: Yes.

doug_1_11-19-2025_090956: it's, it's cool. I appreciate that. I wrote that down, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna use it.

cal_1_11-19-2025_090956: All right. Very good.

What a great conversation with Doug today. I love the way he connected grazing wildlife and the whole ecosystem. It's easy to focus only on forage and livestock, but episodes like this remind us that our decisions affect everything living on our land and in the soil.

Doug mentioned the book Beef, Brush, [01:14:00] and Bobwhites. The print pricey right now because it's outta stock in many places, but the ebook, it's only $10, which makes it easy to get. I'd also love to hear your questions about wildlife and grazing. You can email 'em to me cal@grazinggrass.com or post them in the Grazing Grass Community.

And We'll get Doug to chime in and answer them. After recording Doug's interview, I spent some time exploring the Rangeland Analysis Platform. It looks really interesting and I'm excited to dig deeper into what it can show us about for each trends on our land.

But before we wrap up, remember we're pushing to reach that 1000 subscribers on YouTube before the end of the year. If you haven't subscribed yet, head over to the Grazing Grass Channel and hit that button, subscribe. It'll help us reach more graziers and as [01:15:00] always, more grass, better soil, happier livestock.

Keep 'em moving, and I'll see you next week.