Grazing Grass Podcast sharing Regenerative Ag Stories

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Well, Hobbes,
we will get started with the fast five.

Our first question,

what's your name

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
name is Hobbes Margaret.

Hobbes is my mother's maiden name.

So everybody always thinks my
name is Margaret Hobbs, which

is totally understandable.

But first name is Hobbs,
last name is Margaret.

a French name that may or may not
have been misspelled at Ellis Island

somewhere in the late 18 hundreds.

So.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh,

yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I'm a mishmash.

The, so the only solution is
get so famous, everybody knows

how to pronounce my name.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

And we, we will

work on that today.

We'll try and get you
to a few more years and

hopefully that'll help.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I know how
to, I know how to pronounce his name.

It's, it's, it's not, it's not Kamala.

It's Kamala.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right, exactly.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Although I I,
hope my I hope my trajectory ends up being

a little bit better than hers, though.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: True.

Yeah.

Our second question, what's the name of

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: am
between farms right now, but I

work for a company called Pine
agricultural Company in in Australia.

So I had sisters cattle
company for several years.

Sold that, that one did really

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: The, the
vegetarians in Portland couldn't get

enough of the grass finished beef.

Everybody loves the steak.

It's just people, certain
people have a sense of guilt

when they, when they eat it.

So if you can absolve that,
you increase your clientele.

Then we moved down here to Texas during
COVI bought a ranch ran that for several

years and then my parents split up.

We had to sell the ranch.

Luckily that was right about the
time my consulting career kicked off.

that company was called Fire
and Salt, which is now closed.

And then I started working for Pan, which
has actually been the best thing for me.

It's been a hugely
advantageous experience.

I mean, they have 3.2

million acres little over

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh wow.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: It's
$120 million asset base undertaking.

And, you know, luckily I've been tasked
with developing the business plan

and the genetics and the ecological
integration, and it's super cool

because they're a carbon developer who
has ended up with a bunch of cattle

stations because the, the carbon income
on these places is, is really good.

Basically, Australia started saying,
okay, can you guys please do early

season burns in the tropical Savannah?

So the late season, Dr.

Late dry season burns don't
just destroy everything.

So now burns are only about 10% of
what they were 10 years ago across

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: But the
problem is all of those, all of the,

we were talking about genetics earlier.

All the cattle up there were bred to do
well on country that burned every year.

So there was a big flush
of green grass everywhere.

So now there they have this inherent
contrast where they have lots of

old dead moron forage that needs
to be eaten rather than burned.

And they have cattle, big, big
frame brahmin cattle that have been

performing for the last 50 years on
all this burned fresh green regrowth.

So the, the challenge there is to
shift the genetics in a way that can

do well and get a weaning rate over
50% which is it's currently under, and

then create a market for that or, or
create a product that is marketable.

So it's, it's a big challenge, big puzzle.

And also learning how to deal with
the the, the corporate politics has

always been interesting as well.

so

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
it's certainly been, i.

guess

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: call it
the pal palace intrigue, the palace

intrigue of corporate politics.

There's quite a lot of that.

So, learning how to navigate that
to make a difference at scale has

been a, has been quite a challenge.

Quite difficult, but
also pretty rewarding.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
Oh, very interesting.

And you mentioned that's
located in Australia.

Where are

you located now?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
in east Texas for now.

Who knows where we'll go from here.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: And I think
you mentioned earlier sisters was

in, uh, Washington

or Oregon, Oregon, yeah.

And what year did you start grazing

animals?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: grew up in
the ranching business, so I, you know, I

was, my, my earliest memories are hanging
out with my granddad in the feed truck.

But the first time I was
responsible for my own bank account

and my own payback was 2018.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And have you always focused on

cattle?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: yes, yes.

I don't have any experience with

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: or goats.

Or tang or water

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
or anything like that.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Banting.

We have not had a banting breeder on
the podcast, so you know, that's an

area we could improve in.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
I saw one when I was in the

Northern Territory in, in April.

It was just they're incredibly
incredibly genetically adapted.

Just, just these sausages
of, of a, of an animal.

You know, they come from Southeast
Asia and it is just, they have this

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
spot on their butt.

So when they're running away from
you through the brush, you just see

this white spot getting smaller.

It's pretty cool.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

Very interesting that that is,
we've, the, the animal in the US

that I think is really interesting.

This is a full-blown tan uh,
tangent, but those au uh, Orex

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Interesting.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Onyx or,
or I think it's, or Orx, Just their,

their, they're compact, but they look
like they have enough meat on them.

um, people say the meat is really good.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
that an exotic animal?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yes.

It's from Africa.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Texas.

A lot of hunting game ranch ranches
down there have lots of them.

It's one of those breed breeds.

Sorry.

It's one of those species that is
endangered in the wild state, but

are very prolific in management or

captivity.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I heard
there are like 10 times more captive

tigers in Texas than, than there are
in the world, in the wild in the world.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

I, I wish I could say that
surprises me, but it doesn't.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Oh yeah.

a, it is a crazy state, Texas.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Well,
you know, we exotic Joe up

here north of you, so you know,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the Tiger King.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: man,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Y.

Yeah.

Tiger King.

Yeah.

Joe Exotic.

Yeah.

Tiger King Joe.

Exotic.

Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
Oh man, that's a great watch.

Just I should rewatch that.

I think it's been long enough now.

Yeah.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

We watched it during COVID.

It's probably about time to

watch it and

just see how it was crazy back then.

And with the new stuff that's
came out, I'm sure it feels

even crazier

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: in prison?

Anybody know?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: as last.

I knew he was um, or last thing I
believe I saw he was, but he, he'd

appealed or had contacted Trump.

Try and get a pardon.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: needs
to make a ranching show where

they give him a ranch and just,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh boy.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: we just watched
Joe exotic do high density grazing.

I think that would be super entertaining.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: That would be,

must see tv I,

yeah, that

would be,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: get shocked
with the electric fence would be awesome.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yes, it would.

It'd be very interesting.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based

livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve

the land animals and our lives.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,

challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from

their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.

Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.

This is the place for you.

If you're looking to grow your profits,
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just want to get your hands dirty.

Noble Research Institute can help
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Noble's two and three day educational
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Noble Grazing Essentials demonstrates
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For 10 seconds about the farm,
we received a little bit of rain.

And anytime it rains in early August.

Actually, just in August, we're happy.

I'm always glad for a rain.

I haven't checked the rain gauge to
see how much, but it's been nice.

It looks like some people to the west
of me and North and to Kansas, they've

gotten quite a bit more, but we got some.

And I'm looking forward to the results
from that or the effects of that.

For 10 seconds about the podcast,
we've had really great response to

the last couple episodes about ultra
high density grazing or total grazing.

Uh, we have Hobbes on today
and I think you'll really enjoy

the conversation with Hobbs.

Just wanna to plug his book.

It's a, it's a nice, easy.

We can read, you can get it on Amazon.

Uh, I've really enjoyed it,
so I encourage you to get it.

And with that, let's get back to Hobbes.

I.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Now you
mentioned high density grazing.

Where'd you even get
started with high density

grazing?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I guess
the first time I heard of it was Alan

Savory's podcast where he was, you know,
cultivated the idea of keeping all the

animals grouped up and moving, which
was a big light bulb moment for me.

Most importantly, not because, this
is a better way to graze, but suddenly

there was a deeper, more spiritual
component to the, to grazing itself.

Oh, it's part of the
blueprint of the planet.

Oh, this is how nature is designed.

Oh, well maybe ruminants

Have a, have a more fundamental
purpose to the fabric of reality

than just providing stakes.

And then, like, these tumblers
just started falling and

everything just locked into place.

And I was like, oh, crap.

So I started this was actually after
my career as a as a composer, which

actually did quite well and just
didn't have that meaning for me.

You know, I, I, I, I was, I was

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
marginally successful.

I did all the theme music for three
of the tennis majors one year.

Australian, Australian

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yes,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
and the French Open Garros.

That was kind of the, the
zenith of my accomplishment.

So, you know, I was doing pretty well
as a composer, but it just you know,

having come out of the ranch world in
the panhandle of Texas, it's just not,

you know, close to my heart enough.

So I left and started trying
to figure out how I was gonna

get back into the industry.

you know, it was actually introduced

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: to me that
Alan Savory's work was introduced to me

by Butch, the guy who runs Ranch Lands.

I was interviewing him with him for a job.

And so he mentioned it and I watched it.

I was like, oh, boom.

Quite the, quite the transitional
moment, transformational moment for me.

And then I started applying for all these
jobs and ended up applying for a job in

Virginia and flew out there to interview
and was introduced to Zietsman's book.

And just once I found Zietsman's
book, it was all over.

'cause he, he cracked the code in
terms of genetics and and grazing.

You know, all of this is to say he
cracked the code on how to do it.

But I, it wasn't until many, many years
later that I understood the why and

I thought that I understood the why.

Pretty, pretty deeply
and pretty completely.

So that's why I wrote my book
actually, interestingly enough.

And there's a gentleman named Eric,
who helped me put this together

about what my book actually is.

And he, he sent me a message on
Instagram saying, you know, thank you for

unfolding the why of what we do so well.

And I realized, oh, that
is what I was doing.

'cause I was, I was, I was trying to go
right down to the root of why we're doing

everything ecologically, economically,
philosophically, spiritually.

Like why is this, is this
the right thing to do?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: case
over over the course of the book.

So that's, that's where I heard
about high density grazing.

And so Alan Savory and Johann Zeman were
my introduction into high density grazing.

And it, it became a, a
ridiculous obsession.

Nobody could talk to
me at parties anymore.

And I didn't have any
friends for a long time.

And so now it is, I mean, 'cause
that's, I, I, after that, I spent

seven years just, just sitting,
standing around cattle all day.

And I actually did the math.

I, I walked, I think from New York to Los
Angeles and back in the course of that

seven years building temporary fence.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh

yes.

Yeah, that

sounds pretty accurate.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
Something like 11,000 miles.

So it was it was

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: but
high density grazing, it's, it's

definitely an interesting key
that the world needs more of.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: So I'm,
I'm gonna make a assumption here,

and I'm assuming the ranch you grew
up on did not utilize high density

grazing or even a, daily rotations.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the, the
ranches that I grew up on were a

function of the horse mythology, the
Western horsemen, where the horse is

far more important in the, in the.

The spiritual orientation
than the, than the cow is.

And that's the big transformation I've
had in my life is that the ruminant

is far more important as a g grazier
than the horse is important as a tool.

Now, for so long, the horse was
the, the most important technology

that allowed humanity to, you
know, gather protein effectively.

Like,

get

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: we're at
the point of a, of a transformation.

And so, you know, my people
were all big horse people.

My granddad, all my, all the
pictures of my granddad, he's

on a horse or holding a horse.

I have, you know, I have his
spurs in his saddle with his

name on it and, and all that.

So it's such a huge part of
the mythology growing up.

And so kind of woke up to the fact that
this is an ecological undertaking rather

than simply a let's see, let's call it
a personal mythological undertaking.

Then there's a big, big transformation
for me, and, and it turns out

it's still, you know, as you know,
everybody's still far more enamored

by the horse in the, in the ranching
world than they are by the cattle.

You know, you can, you can see
that simply by virtue of the fact

that everybody is, that rodeos are
still such a, such a huge thing.

So, to, to answer your

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Jumping.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: yes.

The it was, or, or rather no,
there was, there was no rotation.

It was all big pasture

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Go
get, you know, all, all horse

managed, which, you know, I, I, I
don't want to be an antagonistic

to, to the horse driven culture.

A lot of people, you know,
love their horses and and

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, they do?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: want
to be inclusive of everyone

and to some reasonable degree.

And, but I think that what's happening
right now is, is the transition

of recognizing that the cow, the
cow, the cow, actually, the cow

is preeminent, the, the cow is
pre, is preeminent not the horse.

So,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: jumping to organ.

So when you started
producing beef in organ.

You started with that mindset of, of
the ecological, the, the principles of

that rather than production of beef.

So you were doing high density grazing.

With that in

mind,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: so I, I
figured out pretty early on that if you

really want to think about the future,
just imagine you're in Star Wars.

So

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: are imagining
the, imagine there's a, there's a, a

grazing planet in Star Wars, and they,
you know, there's a ship that, that your

ship has a problem and you, the pla the,
the closest place you can be, that you

can set the, the ship down is some grazing
planet in, in Star Wars and New Land.

What does that look like to you?

Are they like, what's it, it looks like
it completely and totally auto automated

optimized, probably drone driven system.

Where the ecology of the planet has
been completely optimized for the,

the, the most life per cubic meter.

And the, the cattle have been
genetically selected for the

ability to do the, to create the,
so to do their job ecologically as

opposed to producing carcass traits.

And then and, and so they, they would
have big automated harvesting facilities

and, and then they would, you know,
freeze it and ship it off world, right?

So you immediately, you, you think about
it from an ecological standpoint, and

you throw out the, the carcass traits.

In, in Star Wars, if people were
breeding cattle from carcass traits,

they would be creating it in a lab.

They would be, they, they

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: a
lab or they would have some

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: prison looking
planet where the cows stood around all.

And in, in a concrete box or something,
and were fed specific rations that would

create the perfect carcass outcome that
would then be slaughtered and sent to

the rich people in Cora or whatever,
which is the central planet in Star Wars.

For, for those of you who don't know that
and yes, I am a bit of a Star Wars geek.

I think it's an amazing, amazing universe.

And so, so when you, when you think
about how, what the future of grazing

should look like, just imagine you're
in Star Wars and you, you realize

that everything is ecologically
oriented rather than protein oriented.

And so then what ha, so then start asking
yourself, well, what are the things in

our culture that are maybe hidden in a
and in our, our, our ranch culture, our

grazing culture, our farming culture
that are maybe a little bit hidden?

transparent to us, but are actually
driven by the protein outcome.

And that's actually another reason why
I wrote my book, is I wanted to say,

okay, let's strip this whole thing down
and what would it look like if we had a

completely and totally ecologically driven
philosophy that then became manifest

in the way that we deal with cattle.

So it, it would, and it would
look quite a quite different

than, than what we have today.

So in, in the very beginning, I, I, as
Justin Bieber says, I, I clocked it.

That that it, this was a,
this was a natural asset play.

This is an ecological orientation play.

And quite frankly, if I got into the
cattle business and tried to compete

with people who are already at scale and
have al already had the economy of scale

already have the the expertise to, to race
to the bottom and produce the most amount

of beef with the least amount of cost.

On land that they have already owned
for generations, then there was no way

I was going to succeed because I didn't,
I didn't have the expertise in that.

And also, there's no story to tell.

So, so I, I recognized earlier or
early that it was a performance art

as much as it was a performance art
and an ecological play as much as

it was a protein production effort.

So, so I got my little group of cows
and I found unused land that was in a

very conspicuous location, and I moved
them four times a day at super high

density right next to the highway.

And, and over time people were like,
whoa, what the heck's going on?

And people got interested and
people started throwing money at it.

And at the same time, I started
doing really well on social media.

And I, I had, I just had the courage
in the very beginning to look

like a, a totally crazy person.

It's, I mean, it's in, in 2018, nobody was
doing that, especially in central Oregon.

Nobody it

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
it wasn't common at all.

And

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and still
to this day, almost nobody's doing

ultra high density grazing like,
you know, Johan or Jaime or Joel.

It's still this sort of it's, it's
still rotational grazing is as, as

you, as you know, kind of the king in
this new sort of regenerative movement.

But the, the ideal, and I think the ideal
is always important 'cause it gives you

something to aim at, is a, is a ultra
high density, non-selective graze.

That's why, that's how I started.

I went, I went, I went hard
from the very beginning.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah,
you, you jumped in on the deep end.

You mentioned the
performance art aspect of it.

And when you say that, or when you say
that, what I'm hearing is you got where

you could be seen, you shared it on
social media, you shared your journey.

Is that what you mean?

I don't wanna make

an assumption here.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: my journey
and I gave myself a platform for

my crazy ass thoughts basically.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and, also I
was, in the beginning I was very happy

to be antagonistic to people and to
pick fights on the internet and that,

that, that waned as time went on.

And now I've gotten to the point where
I find a lot more value in, in being

inclusive, in meeting people where we
can connect and, you know, trying to

figure out the best way to move forward.

Not to, not to to say that there's not
value in being antagonistic at times.

If you're too agreeable, too
much of the time, people are

just gonna walk all over you.

That's definitely something I've
done poorly as well in the past.

But the performance art is make yourself,
as you said, put yourself in a place where

you can be visible and be as different as
you can, be afraid to say what's true.

You know, if if it, if it's
true and it's necessary, go,

go ahead and say it, you know?

'cause I mean, what's the old adage
they have in marketing that you

have to either be the first, the
best or different to make a splash?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Uh oh.

Yes.

Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I was
trying to be the best, first different

one, and if I failed at any one of
'em or two of 'em, I still had one.

So that was, that was my goal.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: And that sounds
a lot like Mike Mitz No Malowitz book

get different on his marketing approach.

You've gotta not do what
everyone else is doing.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And that's been my biggest challenge with
the Australians is, you know, they, they

want to have the best, most ecologically
integrated plan, but when I say, okay,

here's what you need to do the people on
the ground are like, no, but I love my

Brahmans that have a 46% weaning rate.

I can't change

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: brahmins.

Plus the market loves the Brahmans.

And so, anyway, it's it's been a, it
is been a big, big challenge there.

And you know, i've learned a lot.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yes.

So after Oregon, you

moved to

Texas and you continued along the same

path in

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: di
very different forage base man.

I

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Well,
that was my, my next question was

how does that compare and contrast
to Oregon, because those are very

different environments.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: was just, I
thought I was the king shit in Oregon.

Everything was so easy.

Everything was good.

The cattle were in great body condition.

We were up at 3000 feet elevation
with really high protein forges,

had access to some irrigation.

And I thought, man, I'm
just gonna go to Deep

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Deep East
Texas, where it rains all the time.

We can graze year

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: And then
I got to, I got the education of low

protein forage which took me a year to
really understand how, how that worked.

So I, you know, and it was, it was a,
it was a brutal combination of factors.

I got these, so, okay, I'm gonna use
the most native ized cattle possible.

So I bought a bunch of corry and
e cows that came in on January

with very little forage available.

And they were calving in January in
the cold, you know, total totally

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you know,
the conventional guys love them to

cave in January, early February which

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Which
is one of those things that's

completely and totally ecological.

If you were ecologically orienting
it, you would say, okay, when

did the deer drop their babies?

And that's when, that's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: babies.

So that's one of those little areas we
were mentioning that, that potentially

transparent to people where the protein
outcome is driving decision making

rather than the ecological outcome.

Anyway so yeah, so I got
these, these corny cows.

Then they came in January and then
I, so they didn't have any idea

about a high density grazing system.

So I, so I, it took a couple of months
to get 'em used to the high, the, the,

the electric fence stopped jumping
out out of the, out of the paddocks.

I learned very quickly that I couldn't,
I couldn't graze these Corian cows

as tightly as the British cattle
that I was running up in Oregon.

And so I had to figure out what
was the nice balance there.

And after about a year of struggling.

And the first summer was incredibly
terrible, brutal drought as well.

And, and a ton of

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: out.

And didn't have to sell any cattle
and I actually ended up with still

I still had the third of my forage
base because of the, the the grazing

style that I was using available when
the when it finally started raining

again at the end of the summer.

Everybody else had sold out, but I
still had a third of my forage left.

And so I was able to make
it through, through the year

without selling any cattle.

And then make it through the winter with
only feeding hay for a couple of months,

which was pretty good for my first year.

So it

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: a
grazing wind, but it was a really

it was a big fertility loss.

'cause the next year I

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
like 65% calving.

Because these cattle were in a tough,
they weren't adapted, they didn't know

what was going on, and it was a tough
year, and I pushed them too hard.

So I learned a ton in
that, in that first year.

So, but the next two years got a,
got a lot better because I figured

out what the hell was going on.

And then, no, and we can, and we
can revisit that when you get to the

overgrazing part, although I'm sure Jaime
covered that in detail when in, on your,

on your previous your previous podcast.

And, and he, and he helped me a
lot in that first year as well.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: And
when were you introduced to

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: When
I was in Oregon, I, I found him.

He was mentioned in Johan's book.

So I just call, I cold call people, man.

I'm, I,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
I'll pick up the phone.

I'll call anybody.

I'm, I'm happy to do that.

That's how I got to working with the
Australians when I was in Oregon.

I, I was like, okay, this
is an ecological play.

Who's doing that?

And then I found the people who
were writing the carbon credit

methods and I cold called 'em
and started this relationship.

And then.

One thing led to another, they came
and visited my property eventually

down in Texas, and it started this
long relationship that we have now.

So, you know, that's another thing I
would, I would advise people cold call

everybody if everybody you think can
help you or you think you can help

them and start building relationships.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I,
I'll be fully transparent here.

Cold calling is like, um, on a
fear factor, one to 10, 10 being

the worst thing that's up there

near 10, I, it's just not something I do.

So maybe that's something I

need to get better at.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you're
doing public speaking right here, so

it's basically the same thing, right?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: It.

It is.

And interesting enough, I mentioned
this on the podcast, I'm an introvert.

If I can just stay home and do what
I want to do, everything's great.

It's when I have to go out in public, it's
not my favorite thing, but yet here I,

am on a

podcast and I talk way too much
and it's like, well, interesting

contrast there.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: a,
nice controlled environment.

You know, I think that's
probably an element.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
That's, that's, that's probably

a big part of it.

Yeah.

I, I know what's happening.

I know.

I know the structure.

I know what's comes next.

I know what happens when I'm finished.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
And also there's an

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: pre-selection
where you, you know, you've, you've

kind of checked out the people you're
gonna talk to or they've been referred

by other people, you know, they're
not gonna be too much of an asshole.

So,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you're,
you know, you've got a high

probability of success for this cow.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: right.

Which, which helps out, because I feel
like at my point, I don't wanna deal with

th assholes just the

way I am

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: that be
nice if we could get away with that?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: if we could

all the time.

right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and you
gotta remember when you, when you

get into the performance art area
and putting your stuff out there,

especially if there's a comment

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: below,
you're gonna deal with some assholes,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
oh, that's where they all

show up.

Yeah.

Uh, I'll be honest, I cringe
whenever I get a comment on the

podcast on YouTube or Spotify.

I am like, is this a listener?

Is this one of those people
I don't care to talk to?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
Yeah, It's a, it's a,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you know,
the, once you, once you realize that

the vast ma majority of people are
just existing in a place where they

only care about can, can they eat it?

Is it gonna eat me or
can I have sex with it?

They're the only three things
that most people care about.

And then when they try to interact
with a piece of content, they're, they

just don't have the technology for it.

So,

you know, every once in a while you,
that's, you get really great comments.

I mean, and so that's, that's the cool

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: media is
actually it's the new peer review.

So I've been asked every question under
the sun on my social media and, and

just for, for perspective on TikTok,
I have a quarter million followers

on Instagram, I have about 50,000.

So, so I've, I've had, you know, I
think my biggest, my most successful

video of ev of all time is like
six and a half million views.

So, So, so I've been, I've been
asked every question the sun.

I've been challenged in every area.

Every weak point of my philosophy has
been, been challenged and interrogated

and pushed and interrogated and pushed
and thousands and thousands of my ideas.

And in a way that's,

that's not possible.

If you were to get a PhD and, and
then write a paper and then, and then

six other PhDs went, yep, looks good.

You know, so, you know, I've,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

And that's all accurate?

Yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: that I've,
I've found a, a profound benefit

from social media in that way.

Not to say I haven't had days
where it actually ruined my

day, 'cause people would say
something, something bad about me.

And then also there was a point
in time where I realized that.

The human, the human brain evolved
in villages of 200, 250 people.

So, or even smaller.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: if, if two,
if two people in a, in this course

of a day said something negative to
you, that is a huge proportion of the

village and you might be in danger.

So, so your, your, your

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: like,
I'm in danger if you hear two

negative comments in the day.

And the, and the second that I
realized that, I was like, oh, okay.

It's just sad internet people, not
my village mates who might, you know,

murder me because clearly people are
talking behind my back in the village

and they're gonna take me down.

So, you know, it's it's a great case
of don't believe everything you think.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: But
before we continue on the, on, on

your journey with grazing in your
book, how are you marketing your

animals in Oregon and in Texas?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: In
Oregon, we received Facebook ads.

Those worked quite well
because it was still early.

And my wife is a a marketing guru.

I I, at this point, I should pause and
say that, that all things have been

possible in my life because of my wife.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: just
absolutely incredible human being.

Her name's Susanna.

said, you need to get on TikTok.

You need to get on TikTok.

You need to get on TikTok.

Okay, fine.

So I got on TikTok and everything.

Boom, everything exploded.

Okay.

Yes.

Once again, you were right, babe.

And then she did all of the marketing
for, for the the animals whether

it was in Oregon or in Texas.

She did all of that.

She is great with details.

She, she, you know, she did pretty
much everything with my book as

well except write it obviously.

So, so I no, that's I, I wrote the book
and she, she lined up getting the editors,

she lined up getting the proofreads.

She figured out how to get it who
to get to publish it on Amazon.

And then now she's like, you need
to make a post about your book.

You need to get people
to review your book.

So she's, she's definitely the driving
force and I pretend like it irritates

the shit outta me, and sometimes it does.

But but she's, but
she's the best thing for

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

But,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
really grateful for her.

So big shout out to my
lovely wife, Susanna.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: uh, Mentioning
your book there, what brought you to

the point that you thought, I need
to share this information in a book?

I

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: So I
didn't write it to share information.

That's, I think that's the one, the
biggest misconception that people need

to understand about writing a book.

You don't like how arrogant
would you have to be?

Like, I, I'm so smart.

People need to, people need to know what
I know and I need to share my experience.

No that's, that's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I I

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: That's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: might,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I'm
gonna jump right in there,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: hos.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: wrote the book
be because I, I wrote the book because I,

I needed to know what I thought about it.

I, I came in, I

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: with
thoughts and ideas and opinions, and

you can't really know what you think
about anything until you write it down.

So it

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Mm-hmm.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: a, it
was a conversation with my own mind.

And then it got far enough down, down
the, you know, and I, in the beginning

I thought, maybe this will be a book.

Maybe I'll, maybe I'll.

Maybe it'd be something worth doing.

And then by it just kept
going and kept, kept growing.

And I kept seeing things that I thought,
oh, that would be a great contribution.

That would great be a great piece.

Oh, this totally ties in.

And then this, this whole, this this
universe of, of, of, of why continued

to grow and continued to expand.

And it became long enough where I'm
like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm just, I'm

gonna put this out at this point.

And then we started the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
rewriting, rewriting.

I rewrote the book probably five times.

And then

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh

yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: book was
rewritten five times, I went paragraph

by paragraph with, with AI and said,
do you think about this paragraph?

And so I treated AI like an editor.

So after I, after I

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I rewrote
it time, after time, after time, then

I interacted with AI as, as an editor.

And it would suggest, okay, maybe,
you know, what do you think about.

Changing this sentence here to, you
know, make it, make the flow better.

Make it clearer.

Okay, cool.

Let's do that.

Or what about this sentence?

No, let's leave that because it d
destroys my voice if we, if we do that.

So it was a very interactive
experience and so I think that was

one of the examples of using AI.

Well, and so, so, so write
the book to share it.

I wrote the book to figure out what I
was thinking about the whole damn thing.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: And I, I
love that shift on perspective Uh,

You know, I wanna write a book, but
I don't have information to share.

I just want the process for

myself.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: great.

Just fine.

You know what, what's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Okay.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I mean, after
seven years of there looking at cows and

looking at grass and, you know, allowing
my brain to ruminate on what's actually

going on here, and you can't help but.

A huge, a huge percentage of that.

A huge part of what's happening
there is, is your own particular

experience and disposition
interacting with the natural world.

And so that's always gonna produce
a different outcome than than

if it's just trying to figure out
what the physics or the science says.

So everybody's trying to figure out
the, the perfect way to graze that, that

that's kind of leaving out the self.

a huge part of why we're doing
what we're doing is, is the, is the

self and what the self really is.

How the self interacts with the natural
world, how the two interact together.

Maybe examining where one
stops and the other one begins.

Is there even a point where one
stops and the other one begins?

And so these are all and so it is just,
it is just, it is just my particular

experience, my particular disposition.

As it relates to how I have interacted
with the agroecological world,

which is ultimately in my, in my
view, the, the fabric of reality.

That's, I mean, that's just a
phrase I love so much because that's

what we're dealing with here is,
is the, is the fabric of reality.

You know, it's I don't really
conceptualize the world as a bunch of

atoms bumping up against each other.

I definitely, cons co I conceptualize it
as more of a dream than anything else.

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cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: With your book,
as you started through that process,

was there anything that jumped out
to you or you're like, wait, I, I did

not expect to reach this point when
I started putting down my thoughts.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Yes,
the biggest one for me is that I

did not expect to discover that
basically every indigenous group.

That I would stumble across,
had a, had a, and there are

exceptions, but a huge number of the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: when they
would go to their creation myth,

had a, had a, the herd animal was
a key player in the creation myth.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: that was

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: for me,
and it really lent a lot of gravity

to this fundamental idea that I have.

That hu human civilization is a derivative
of herd activity, know, and that's one

of the things I write about in the book,
and it's always stood out to me so much.

It's like you never see
hippies at, at a music festival

dancing in tall grass, do you?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

No,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
because the, the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: no.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: system is, is
tuned to severely grazed AKA mowed grass.

That's what, that's where our kids play.

And so the only time that
ever happened in, nature.

Is when you had a massive herd
come through, or if there was a

fire in there, fresh regrowth.

But you, you go and you look at
the, the body of literature and

there was a whole lot less fire back
when those big herds were around.

And so you come out, you come out with
the, with the understanding or the idea

that I have that it's like, well, well,
it turns out that these herds were

going around totally knocking down all
of the forage, consuming all the forage

and these huge numbers of animals.

And suddenly for a short time all the
humans could see any of the place where

the predators are coming after 'em,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh

yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the kids could
run around and play everything that regrew

in that, you know, 2, 3, 4 weeks after
that was fresh and beautiful and lovely.

And humans could identify
250 edible plants at least.

So all of these plants that were
just having this fresh, beautiful,

delicious regrowth were were edible.

So the herd was this massive reset.

You know, and so, you can't, you
know, you can't activate the higher

parts of culture building or game
building or civilization building with

civilization's, obviously just a very,
very com complex game if worried that a

lion is behind the grass all the time.

So it, it's my, it's, it's my thesis that,
that, that these, these landscapers, these

mowers and these massive herds created
the conditions on an, on an annual or

a biannual cycle for humanity to go, oh
wait, there's more than just surviving.

So, so that's that was the thing
that was really surprising for me.

And, and I think that that
notion hidden in a lot of the.

From the, from the Nordic mythology
to Siberian the togas people.

There's just, it's just obviously
the indigenous Americans, it's

like, it's just the herd animal
is preeminent in that story.

And I was really surprised to, to find
that and how deep that actually goes.

And so, so that's, so that's the thing
that was really, really surprising to me.

I had a, I had a notion that there
was something to this idea that herd

animals were more important to, to
who we are as a people than, you

know, we really think about initially.

And I think that's also one of the
things that's driving the regenerative

movement is people get out around a
group of cows and then they look at

a freshly grazed pasture and they're
like, oh yeah, that feels good.

It's, it is the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: out and
seeing their freshly mowed, but

it's like the real thing instead of

the,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the,
it's the mowing the lawn is the

analog, it's the, it's the simulated
version, you know, but you see

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the actual
life reset with a group of cattle at,

at particularly when you see the ultra
high density and they take the, take

everything down to the crown and the
dung beetles are going crazy and the

birds are following the cattle around,
and it's just this perfect refresher and

it's just, just really, really wonderful.

So that, that's, that was the biggest
surprising thing for me was the, was

the presence that, that sort of, that
hidden code that, that herd animals

play in the, the creation myth of,
of so many indigenous cultures.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: You, you, you
know, as I read that in your book and you

talked about games happening on a nice
mode surface, like you s and you brought

up the fact, you know, you don't have
to worry about predators in tall grass.

And to be honest, I really hadn't thought
about that till I read it in your book.

And I'm thinking about, well, you know,
when my grandkids come with me and we go

move cattle, which they love to um, I'm
like, stay where the cattle have grazed.

I'm getting the paddock
set up in the other area.

um, they don't listen real
well, but, you know, I do feel

more secure when they're there.

I love that feeling out
there with the cows.

So yeah, that just spoke to me
and I was like, interesting.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
That's, very, that's cool.

I've, I've, I've had a few people mention
that to me and it kind of, it kind of

helps put, put some things together.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: And then the
other thing that I thought was really

interesting in your book, probably at
this point, and I'll be on transparency.

I got your book last week and
I'm almost finished with it.

You notice that word there.

You, we were talking about how the

importance of words almost finished.

I'm not quite finished with it, so I may
find something more important later in the

book, but I'm gonna read you a sentence
here that you asked yourself, what if I

viewed beef, beef not as the byproduct of
a healthy functioning ecosystem, but as a

waste product.

And to me that's, that's a very
interesting paradigm shift.

can can you expand on that some?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: It is,

it's a mental exercise.

We all know that there is
value in consuming energy and,

and.

When something dies, or even
when it's alive, sometimes we

consume it and it gives us energy.

that is something that is uniform
throughout all of creation.

Everything that dies is
eaten by something else.

So why would we use that
as a management paradigm?

We, we need to manage things by their,
what they contribute uniquely via

their activity while they're alive.

So don't be mistaken.

And this is not for you.

I think you, you clearly get this,
but people listening don't be

mistaken to, for me to say that, oh,
throw, throw the beef in the trash.

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying don't think about it.

I'm

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: it's
not worth your mental energy to

think about how to, who cares?

You know?

It's like I had a conversation
with a, with a, with a rancher

the other day here in Luft.

And he was talking about how he'd just
gotten back from doing ultrasounding,

the ribeye, you know, the ribeye carcass.

And I just, I was just, the whole time he
was talking to me, I was just imagining

like a Native American standing next
to a bison with an ultrasound machine.

He is like, not enough ribeye.

You know, it's just, it's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: perversion of
what we're actually doing on this planet.

In my view.

Cattle cattle exist to eat grass.

They don't exist to give you steak.

Cattle exist to eat grass.

Orx exists, existed to eat grass.

Bison

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: right,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: eat grass.

They don't exist to give you steak.

They, that just, that just
happens to be a really great.

A side effect and, and, and you

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and until
you're willing to consider it a waste

product, you still have those little
seeds of, of running things and making

decisions from the beef product.

It is only, and this is going back to
my sort of Star Wars analogy, it is

only when you consider them completely
and totally from the perspective of

their ecological function that we can
get the systems aligned and optimized.

And if we do that, and this is the central
thesis of the book, we'll have far more.

Beef than we know what to do with, we'll
have fattier beef than we know what

to do with, because an ecologically
aligned animal is one that puts on fat

intramuscularly because, so they can fight
off parasites, so they can get pregnant,

so they can stay in good body condition.

It's so, it's if you, it's like if you,
it's like trying to fix your golf swing.

You know, we just keep trying
to produce more beef by hitting

it harder and harder and harder.

It's like, fix your form, fix the form
first, and then eventually you'll end up

hitting the golf ball farther than you
would just by trying to hit it harder.

And so if we fix our form, which means
our genetics and our grazing, and most

importantly the the underlying assumptions
and principles and philosophies that

drive our decision making, then we'll
end up with more, beef in the long term.

One of the things, one of the
things, and I'll just say this

is gonna be controversial.

One of the things that the, the American
cattle industry loves to say, right,

right now is that, is that our herds
are at the lowest they've ever been.

And in terms of numbers since the fifties,
our, our American cattle herds been the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
and we're producing more beef.

You know what that means?

That means bigger cattle and bigger

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: are biolo, are,
are, are poorer, biological functionaries.

You have to spend more energy every day
keeping the lights on in the body, running

metabolic processes, and, and they produce
more beef because it's a function of the

fossil fuel and the row crop industry.

what, that's where all
that beef is coming from.

But beef needs to come from grass
because that's what, that's how the

blueprint of the planet was designed.

That is how the creator wrote the script.

Not he is, he is like, I'll give
you cattle I'll give you orex, I'll

give you bison, it'll eat the grass.

You eat the bison.

It's like, cool idea, bro.

But what if we got the black goo
out and then we grew corn or soybean

and then fed that to the cows?

'cause I, I don't think, God, I'm
pretty sure you're not thinking

about the profitability here.

You know?

And I gotta really

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: my

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: reports.

And

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you know, but
that, and that's my whole, the whole point

of my book is that, that's, that's, it was
a great idea in the fifties and sixties.

We had so much, we, we
hadn't even reached the, the.

Height of our national oil production.

We hadn't

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
until the early seventies.

And so we still had great soil.

We had so much oil, you
couldn't, you know, you didn't

even know what to do with it.

And we started growing all these, all this
corn, and people realized, oh my gosh,

it's so much more profitable to just put
cattle in feedlots and, and feed 'em corn.

That's way easier.

And then that way, we, we don't have to
use all this grass to, to grow out steers.

We can have more females and then
the, and the herd just, and it

just grows and grows and grows.

And

what do we have?

And the Panhandle of Texas where I, where
I'm from, is a great example of this.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: completely
collapsing ecosystems, just totally

and completely collapsing ecosystems.

The ogalala aquifer has been sucked dry.

You have barns with 18,000 milk
cows that, that, that go up in

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: It's
it's an ecological disaster.

And, you know, I'm not
saying end that to tomorrow.

I'm not saying that.

'cause you know, you can't, can't
turn a system too fast without

massive massive negative effects.

But what I am saying is that here's
the ideal, let's, if you don't have an

ideal, you don't have something aim at.

So let's aim at that.

Let's aim at the ideal.

And so there are a lot of us out there
who are trying to conceptualize that

ideal and give us something to to aim at.

So that, I mean, this is, this is, this

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: You know, hops.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: waste products.

So

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

When you take, make a paradigm shift,
such as viewing beef as the product

to being the waste product you know,
profitability is so important for our

farms to be sustainable, and that
that's a big paradigm shift for 'em.

How, what do you say to that argument?

I can't go view it that way
because I've gotta make a profit.

So my farms

continues on.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
understand my argument.

my

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: okay.

Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: if you,
if you align yourself with nature and

voluntary systems, which nature is a
voluntary system, then you'll produce

more beef, you'll, you'll grow more
calves per per you'll, you'll grow

more cattle per, per hectare, per acre.

You will.

The big problem is you, you, you
do, I'm, I get to the heart of

your heart of your question here.

If you can run your own, if you
can market your own cattle and

market your own beef, then great.

Then that that's what you should do.

And you should create because, because
ultimately you're gonna grow a better

product if it comes outta the feedlot.

It's not, it's not as healthy for
you as, as something that comes off a

grass finished operation and period.

It's, that's, I don't care what
kind of propaganda the, the.

Beef, US beef cattle feeders or whatever
tries to tell you it's not, it is

not as good for you because it is not
in line with its ecological function

period.

The more aligned you are with the
blueprint of your life and the

blueprint of your existence, the,
the better your, you are going

to feed the next stage of life.

That's for sure.

There are people who are beholden
to certain markets, and I understand

that the, the US is, is probably
the worst offender because much of

our cattle do end up in a feedlot.

And these, these cattle need to have fast
gains or they need to, they need to put on

a lot of lean weight because if you have
really great genetically gra grass adapted

cattle, you put 'em in a feedlot, they
immediately start putting on too much fat.

They don't put on enough lean
meat and they put on too much fat

and the feedlot can't make money.

So they're like, I need
these big frame animals.

But the problem is, what you end up doing
over time is you end up subsidizing the

bottom line of these, of these feed yards
and the slaughterhouses by, with the

fertility of your soil, because the, the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
adapted cattle are short, they

are heavy, and they fatten easily.

And that is the opposite
of what a feedlot wants.

And so the, and so if, if you are
beholden to that, you know, I'm sorry.

And that's, that's, that's, that's tough.

And maybe I'm, you know, but also at the
same time there are a lot of systems in

place over history that had to be changed
by brave people willing to risk it all.

I mean, with that same mentality,
you're just like, who's gonna pick

the cotton if I get rid of the slaves?

You know?

like my, my

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: is gonna
fail if I get rid of the slaves.

You know?

It's like, the obvious,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah, you're
missing the whole point if that's your,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: right?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: your, um,

response.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: that that's
the kind of thing, and, and, and I'm,

you know, and I'm not saying that,
that raising the wrong type of cattle,

wrong type of cattle is the same as,
as in, as enslaving human beings.

I'm not, I'm not

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: going
to try to put those together,

but I'm, but that's not what

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: at all.

What I'm saying is that, is is that
the future god's will, I use that

phrase in my book, the Emerson quote.

God's work will not be
made manifest by cowards.

And I view the blueprint of planet
Earth as God's work, and I am going

to do everything I can to make
it manifest, and I don't care.

If that it, it, it's worth doing
if I fail if I fail, it's worth

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

' hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: cause
eventually we're all gonna die anyway.

What do you think?

You're not gonna die and you're gonna
get some, you think you're going to,

you're gonna go to heaven and there's
gonna be somebody from the US cattle

feeders there to hand you a certificate.

Like, I don't think so.

So it's, it's it's our, our job, our job
on this planet is to exhaust ourselves

in service of the ecosystem and o
and other forms of life and then die.

Like that's our job on this planet.

that, that's what I,
that's what I intend to do.

That's what I'm gonna do.

And, you know, if you, if you have to
continue doing something that you don't

want to do, I mean, that's the bottom
line is if you're the kind of per, if

you love what you're doing and you're
getting good results and you can justify

it, and, then, hey, keep right on.

But if you know in your heart

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Keep going.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you're doing
something you shouldn't be doing, and

you're only doing it because of your,
your profit motive, then you know

that's between you and God, you know?

So, so I, I'm willing to
put myself on the line.

I'm willing to put my family on
the line to do what I consider

to be the right thing and it.

right thing to me is a, is an
ecologically optimized grazing

system that is planetary.

And that's, that's, that's what I want.

That's, and and I'm also not one of
these people who's like, everybody

in ag needs to stick together.

You know?

It's like we all need to, we
need to support each other.

And it's like, imagine if lawyers
did that and it's like, no, sorry.

We can't argue against the
other lawyer because we're both

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the
most ridiculous idea that I've ever

heard that I see that all the time.

It's like regenerative and conventional
people start arguing and somebody

inevitably comes in the comments
and they're like, wait guys, we all

gotta stick together 'cause we're ag.

And it's like, no, we're also
ecologist versus protein producers.

You know, it is like,
it's, it's however you

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: it, you
know, and it's also, you can, you

can split human beings and what
they do into an infinite number

of, of pieces and descriptions.

So, I, I think that the, the war of
ideas is, is extremely important.

I think there's nothing that's too
small or too unimportant to fight over.

And I think that the, the fight
happening right now in for the future

of agriculture, if we're gonna go with
making, we need to the question is on

one side, you have people saying, we
need to make nature more efficient.

And that means putting everything
into human terms, the human system

feed, putting everything into
human terms, the human system lots.

We need to make nature more efficient.

And on the other side, you
have people like a future an

ecology that functions well

and safer food more stable landscapes.

More stable, which more stable
environments, which which create

more stable weather patterns,
which create more stable climates.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a climate
dor, but I do know that regulated

systems create regulated systems.

And if you have a more regulated
functional ecosystem, you're gonna have

a more regulated functional climate.

That's just, that's just
the, the, the bottom line.

And you're also also a well-functioning
regulated system will buffer the extreme

ends of that, whether it's, whether

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: or massive

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: If you
have a more regulated ecosystem,

you, you bring in the extremes.

That's just, that's just
sort of systems theory.

So, so yes.

I mean, if to, to, to just
bring that point home, that's.

That's up to the individual person.

And, and markets will not change
if if, if individuals don't change.

Imagine if, you know, it's like when Henry
Ford started mass producing a first car.

People asked him, you know, said,
if people had asked me what they

wanted, they would've said, if I had
asked people people what they want,

they would've said a faster horse.

And the same with, same with

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: when he was
making the iPhone, if people had, if he

had asked people what they would've want,
he would've said a better blackberry.

You know, so it's incumbent upon

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
to tell a better story.

It's this life is very simple.

He who tells the best story wins.

That's why there's a part of my book de
describing the two stories, the story of

force and the story of harmony, you know?

So, it's like whoever tells
the better story wins.

And that's why, you know, it's like the
cathode Ray TV didn't go out because.

because we said, oh, we need to
stop making cathode gray TVs.

You know, we just made a better tv.

Elon Musk made a better car with Tesla.

You know, that's, it's not
because it's an electric car.

It's a better car.

We need to tell a better story
and make a better product and

grass finished beef that, that
finished beef is a better story.

Pe the, the vast majority of
people who don't want to eat grass

finished beef is because they've
been propagandized into, into.

this is my view, and other people may
disagree, have been propagandized into the

taste of, of of feedlot beef, you know?

And, and also if you're a little
kid, that's what you, you used

to, you grow up eating it.

But con conversely thousands of
generations of their ancestors

grew up eating natural food,
which were natural animals.

And, you know, none of
them probably complained.

They're like, oh, the fat
in this is the wrong color.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: we
gotta tell, we gotta make a better

product, a more nutrient dense
product, a more energy dense product.

This is one that's, that's interesting
to me is like, if you have, if you have

animals that fatten easily on grass,
they have a higher percentage of fat

deposition to lean meat deposition.

That means they're more energy dense.

That means you get more energy per bite.

And if it, and if it costs them less
energy to put on to, to, deposit that

energy in their bodies, then that's
making efficiency more natural.

The, the, the feedlot version is obviously
you just pump, you know, hot food, you

know, high energy feeds into these animals
until their, their genetics, which prefer

to put on lean meat, have to start putting
on you know, inter intermuscular fat.

And then, then, then we start
going, oh, we gotta select for

genes to put on intermuscular fat.

We gotta select for rib eye area.

We gotta,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and we're,
and we're chasing, or it is like this

tower of babble where we're chasing we're
chasing, we're trying to artificially

create this, this agricultural heaven.

And all we have to do is, is,
is pay attention to fertility.

And that, you know, that's one thing
that, that's what Johann and Jaime

and, and, and Joel will all tell you,
and the way that I frame it is that,

that fertility is the convergence
point of all meaningful ecological.

And economic traits.

So if we just pay attention to
fertility, which cow, which cow

calves the earliest, who matures the
earliest and then has the least the,

the shortest inner calving period.

And you just pay attention to that and
you'll have animals that just continue

to get better and get, continue to
get better and continue to get better.

But we're, we're chasing all
these irrelevant considerations.

And I had a conversation with a guy
who was a seed scientist over in

Africa a couple of weeks ago, and
he was talking about the same thing.

The more we, we select for certain
traits in these seeds, individual traits

and try to bring them out, the more
downstream weird stuff starts happening.

you know, so that's, that's
what, that's what we're seeing

with with the cattle world.

And that's the, the only
way backwards is just.

attention to fertility.

Fertility is the most important

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, We are,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: can
accelerate natural selection by

paying attention to fertility.

You wanna get me back on track?

'cause I'll talk.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
well, I, I, I I like that.

I don't wanna go too
much in genetics today.

It's definitely a topic I'd
like to get into another time,

but it just takes me back.

You know, Zeitsman talks
about it in his book.

You go to Lasseter's

philosophy, Tom Lasater talks
about the fertility and quit

measuring all these extra things.

Just get a animal that works in the
environment they're going to be in

and quit worrying about everything

else.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
Yeah, absolutely.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and that's,
so that's why I'm probably not your

guy to talk about genetics, honestly,
because I think, I think I think Mother

Nature and God has it pretty simplified.

It's like

fertility fertility takes over the world.

the bottom line.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I mean,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: it does.

Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
species are, right?

You're more fertile in the environment.

So that's it.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

Just a little bit more on that.

You, you talked about using a

British breed in Oregon.

You talked in Texas

using Corte.

Uh, In Australia you're working with more

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Brahman

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: base.

How are you, are there certain breeds
you're going out there and infusing in

that, in the, the drive to get for tilty?

Or are you selecting from
within those herds to build more

of the animal that's needed?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: but primarily
the reason that I selected all those

different animals is 'cause it's the, it's
the available appropriate base from which

to start to create your own adapted breed.

So with the, with

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the cattle
in Oregon, I was using small frame

Angus, a lot of Aberdeen Angus crosses,
or low line as they used to be called.

And then I was infusing I
was AIing macona into them.

So, and

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: thing
in i I, I was using Una Bulls here

in Texas as well and creating some
really, really beautiful and Joel

has all those animals now actually.

And some really nice Corte
and he uses Piney Woods, so

obviously what do they call it?

Congeners the same, same, you
know, very, very similar animals.

I love the COR because they they're,
they're, they're cheap and they're readily

available, and you can just keep breeding
back to them and keep breeding back to

them until you've bred out all of the
undesirable elements of the corate, which

is basically just their, their frame.

You know?

you

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: put
more, put more heft on 'em with

those African genetics, and then,
you know, you're, you're gonna

be in good shape in in Australia.

The the Brahman is just what's there
and it's what the market wants.

And there are certain areas where
the, in the Northern Territory,

the only option is the boat market,
the live export to Indonesia.

And for some reason, the
Indonesians, it's, it's a,

it's a totally strange thing.

The Indonesians love lean beef.

They want their lean beef.

I'm not sure it's cultural or what.

And they only want white,
really really eared Brahman.

They won't take blacks.

They won't take cross breads.

They won't take brindles.

They just, the boats just
want the high content.

Brahman, Malaysia, they're happy
to take red cattle because red

is a the lucky color in Malaysia.

Vietnam will

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
o other cattle as well.

It's, it is.

These are all of these things that,
these decisions that are made not

from an ecological standpoint.

When you get over into Queensland
with the, the northeast part of

Australia, and on the northeast part
of Australia, you'll see that there's

a there's a peninsula right on the
top called the Cape York Peninsula.

And the Cape York Peninsula is
about the size of New York, and

only 30,000 people live there.

And it's six months of wet and it's
six months of dry, brutal conditions.

Super.

It's the worst forage quality
I've ever seen anywhere.

You know, you're, you're gonna get
maybe for a tiny percentage of the year,

you'll get up to maybe eight, 9% protein.

But the rest of the year it's,
it's, it's in bad shape as I, the,

and, but, but people continue to
try to satisfy the market there.

So they have these big 1200

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: brahm and
cows, and they're all in poor thrift.

And you get, you know,
weaning rates below.

Below 50%, and you may get
a calf every 18 months.

And, and you know, to me, I
see that and I examine it from

a first principle standpoint.

I'm like, this is totally
ecologically aligned.

But the biggest problem there is our,
our, our people problems, not, not genetic

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

Yeah.

I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: are, those
are problems that are easily solved, but

the coming up with the personnel and the
buy-in to do it is, is the real challenge.

So, but also there are
some market realities.

You know, you you get penalized if
you have a, if you bring in an animal

for slaughter under a certain size,
which we all know, and then, but

that, that, that's gonna be solved.

our, with AI driven slaughter
houses, they already have completely

robotic driven lamb slaughter houses.

In in New Zealand.

So, you know, for instance, Cape
York Peninsula, what that, what that

area needs is a 300 kilogram cow.

They need a 650 pound cow.

at anything bigger than that, you're
going to lose fertility, you're gonna lose

productivity, and they need a lot of 'em.

then you, you know, you grow those out
today, you know, you have nowhere to

sell them, and so people just continue to

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: find
this fine line between, between

marketability and, and fertility.

And so, you know, it's this, this race
to find this ultra thin line where

you can then hopefully make break
even, which regularly doesn't happen.

So it tells me a complete
new shift that has to happen.

And that new shift is gonna
be driven by it's gonna be by

technological integration data.

It's gonna be driven by the ability
to get these cattle to an AI

driven, slaughterhouse at a on a
semi-regular basis, obviously in Cape

Port Peninsula, it would have to be
during the six months of dry season.

And, but you know, Asia is right
there, you know, it's like there

are you know, the, the, there like
50 million new Chinese or rising

into the middle class by 2040.

And they're demanding more, more beef,
more protein in their diet from beef.

There's the opportunity is there and
somebody's gonna figure out how to do it.

And, and once again, this just all
goes back to me thinking, okay, if

I, if I had, if I built this system
from a completely ecologically aligned

standpoint, I would say, okay, well
we need ecologically adapted animals.

We gotta have a way to transport them.

We need a way to export them.

We need a way to slaughter
them effectively and.

You know, and I have a, a whole
plan in my mind and on paper

on how to, on how to do that.

But it, it has to be done
in, in steps over time.

But so then always it comes down
to what can, what can be done now?

And do

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
bravery to do that?

And sometimes it's very difficult because
once again, you know, the, the finance

guys, they're worried about their,
they're finance guys are employed to

prevent you from doing innovative things
because they don't want their, the fear

of loss is, is a far more motivating
factor than the possibility of gain.

So people who are visionary and people
who are innovative, you know, it's always

just sort of swimming upstream against
the against the, the spreadsheet people.

Which, Hey, I, I value

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I want.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: people.

I appreciate spreadsheet people.

I just think that sometimes we
get a little, we, we forget,

you know, what the blueprint of
planet earth is and that, that we

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: a moral ob
obligation to do brave, true things.

In the short time we're on the planet.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
I, I wanna jump back.

Just, it's just a very minor thing, which
you're gonna be like, why after I said all

that, you gotta ask this, but the bras in
Australia, are we talking American brass?

Okay.

I, I didn't realize they um, that

prevalent there.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: dominant
breed in Northern Australia for sure.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: in the very
beginning, in the late 18 hundreds,

they started with Afri Connors,
and in the, the first settlers

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and then
after that it was all shorthorn.

And so the, the feral

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
up there, which are just.

of them are just beautiful.

Actually the best cattle I saw up there
had had elements of all three Shorthorn

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and you
could maybe see a little bit of

Afri Connor in, in those cattle.

They, the, they call 'em clean skins,
obviously, 'cause they're not branded

and the, you know, they're, the, the
downside is like many wild herds,

they, they haven't had thousands and
thousands of years to optimize their

fertility, but they're still, they still
outperform the those Brahman by a lot.

And it's just, they just don't have
the size to them to, to satisfy

the current existing market.

And they don't grow fast

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: people
just think they're trash cattle.

Although if you, if, if you go out to,
if, those stations will go out to do

what's called a killer to kill an animal
and, and, and butcher it and hang it

up in the meat freezer, they'll always
kill one of the Peninsula reds, which

is what they call them, peninsula Reds.

'cause they taste better, you know,

they're a

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: eating

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
than the, than the Brahman.

Yet, you know, the, which is one of
those sort of fundamental misalignments

that the, the, the animals being raised
for sale taste more poorly than the

ones that have sort of nativ eyes.

But, but what, you know, they have, the
problem is they have no way to select

for, to, to enhance natural selection
because all of the, all of the males

out there are constantly running around
trying to breed all of the females.

And so you have the

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
breeding all the females.

So, so it's a much slower.

Nativ process.

And so what, what needs to happen
up there is the, the infusion of

African genetics, the the tagging and
digital records of all these animals,

identifying the earliest maturing ones.

The, the average cow up there doesn't
have her first calf until she's four.

Yeah.

It's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: wow.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: it's,
it's the, the average cow doesn't

doesn't reach puberty until
she's in like two and a half.

you know, the, the, the solution
is there in the African genetics.

The, the, the best possible
outcome, I think for from what I

can tell is that you would have a,
a massive influx of of Afro zebra.

Afro zebra, which is generally
an anni across with a Barran.

And they're, they're
using those in Zambia.

They're a very small framed animal,
but they're just, they, there's no

better animal on poor forage, except
maybe like the, the really small cattle

that are indigenous to Southeast Asia.

There are some really
incredible animals there too.

They're just too, they're just too
small for what the, for the, the labor

unit economics of the slaughterhouses.

So that's, that's the problem we're

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: ecology demands
a smaller framed animal to perform.

Its, its function well, but the market,
the artificial human driven markets

demand a larger framed animal, which has
downstream negative ecological effects.

There were 150 thou what, what's, what
was the right, what's the right number?

I'm, lemme get this number right.

There were 150,000 cattle on
the Cape York Peninsula in 1950.

Now there is only a third of that

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you
know, because the animals keep

getting bigger and the forage
keeps getting poorer, you know,

and

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you know, it's,
it used to be able to hold 150,000 cows.

How can we go back that direction?

Not the same direction we've been going.

That's for sure.

So, so

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Right.

Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: who are out
there listening and sorry for the, the

whole spiel about Australian cattle, I'm
sure, I wonder if it's useful at all?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I,
I find it very interesting.

I, I'm enjoying Um, We had um,
Badcock, from, um, Zambia, and

he's talking about the cattle
he's using over there, the smaller

sizes you've mentioned.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Yeah.

I, that'd they're probably Johann lives
in Zambia now, as you probably know.

And

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
he's, got a lot of anoni cattle.

And you know, this, that's another
one of the things that we really

need to figure out how to do is
to, is to get the the government

agencies in charge of, of biosecurity.

To figure out how we can get
these ecologically adapted

genetics across the world.

'cause I mean, Australia has the most

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: biosecurity
laws on, basically on the planet because

they're obviously a giant island.

They have no rabies.

They are very, very careful
and as they should be.

But also at the same time, they
have a big problem in terms of the

genetics of, in their, in their
northern in their northern cattle.

And they also have a big problem
in what the market demands.

So, so we have some things
we need to figure out.

And in Australia has the world's
only regulated carbon market.

So in my view is that the, is that
the carbon regulators and the people

who are in charge of biosecurity need
to get together and go, okay, we need

to figure out how to find, how to get
the most ecologically adapted animals.

Or their genetics from Central
Africa where they're grow,

where they're growing in similar
environments to Northern Australia.

We gotta figure out how to do a special
transfer and get these genetics over here.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: and, and
because it's, it's crucial to the future

of the industry as far as I'm concerned.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I was just
reading a article earlier today about,

uh, Australian sheep breeder and talking
about foot rot and what they're breeding.

But in the article they were talking
about they can't import lambs,

rams seamen from New Zealand.

And I thought, oh, that's
really interesting, that close.

And they

can't do any of that.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
It's the, the biosecurity

state is, is extremely intense.

And I think the way through that is
is no, nobody's, nobody in a, in a, in

a country that, that cares about the
environment to the point where they

will create a government regulated.

industry is not going to be convinced
through the protein production story.

They will be convinced through

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: story.

And that is because it

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
true, it is more in line with

the blueprint of reality.

And so that is, that is why I think the
car, the climate re and carbon regulators

and the biosecurity people need to
get together and have that story told

so that we can get the best, the best
genetics from across the world to be able

to perform those ecological functions.

And a lot of people in Australia, the
big pushback is there's never been

a hoofed animal in, in Australia.

So it's not native like number one,
cattle are not going away in Australia.

Number two, there actually
was a hoofed animal.

The short, the giant short
faced kangaroo had a hoof.

So, there was a hoofed animal.

And

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: three,
the, the more fundamental issue

here is the digestive technology.

In the book I write about you know,
the two digestive technologies,

ruminants and Hindgut fermenters working
together, Australia had that same thing.

They had giant wombats that were
migratory, you know, wombats, those,

those short little marsupials that poop.

Cubes.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: And the,
they were, they were 3000 kilograms I

believe was they had almost a 10,000.

I, I think that's right.

It's either way, I think it's, it,
it could be up to 1500 kilograms.

I want, I, I want look that
up and get, get it right.

But the bottom line is they had,
they were ruminants I'm sorry.

They were hind gut fermenters.

And Oh, I'm sorry, they a thousand pounds.

I was, how did I have that one so wrong?

This is actually important for
me to look up here possibly

as much as 3,500 kilograms.

Okay.

I was right.

So, so you had a, basically a an
almost 10,000 pound, migrating

hind gut fermentor, which
that's basically an elephant.

That's an elephant basically.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Walking
around and you had all kinds of,

of species of kangaroos, which are
for gut ferment or fer fermenters,

which is a very close to a ruminant
ruminant is a for gut fermentation.

So you had these two technologies
going around, performing

that migratory forage reset.

So it's actually kind of unimportant
that there were, there were fewer hooved

animals because the impact was there,
you know, the, the animals were migrating

and moving and the impact was there.

So, so Australia needs that same
activity of, of, of optimized grazing

to, to increase ecological function
the same as the rest of the planet.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Now you
mentioned something there before

we wrap up and go to a FEMA four.

You mentioned hind gut fermenters
versus for gut, and most

of our animals are for gut.

When we're talking about ultra high
density, we're talking about using

those for um, fermenters in that
system, is there a need to have

some hind guts fermenters in there?

Are we able to mimic that enough
with the four gut fermenters?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: You can
certainly, people use meat horses.

In, in Mexico people use mules.

People use donkeys.

They do a great job.

But I think more functional aspect is
that the ruminants have to be grazed

in such a way where they and where
they simulate the hind gut fermenters.

And what that means is during
the best times of year where

the forges is the best.

They take that forage all the way
to the ground, they go ahead and do

the clean, severe grays and during,
and then also requires, and I'm sure

Jaime got into this quite a lot, you
know, chasing the green grass, right?

So you go back to the beginning of
the rotation when you're at that

high protein stage in the grass.

It's what Johann would
call a plan to overgraze.

And then in the non-growing season, you
go through your deferred forage, your

stockpile, which is another part of
this whole system, and you support that

higher harvest deficiency with protein
and energy supplement where needed.

So, which is ultimately
cheaper than feeding hay and

much better for the ecology.

'cause as, as Jaime, I'm sure laid
out for you beautifully, that it's

in those areas that are deferred
for the whole year where you get

real MAOC long-term carbon buildup.

So, so you have to deploy the ruminants
as doing the job of ruminants and hind

gut fermenters using protein supplement.

So, and then you need to have a clear,
you need to, you need to create a

clear cut, a, a clear recycling, and
that all of that forage needs to go

through the digestive system and be
deployed on the ground as fertilizer.

yes, they have to, we have to figure out
how ruminants can most effectively utilize

forage as a hindgut fermenter would.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Hobbs,
really appreciate the Uh, Before we

move to the famous four, is there
anything else you'd like to add?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I
think we've covered it quite well.

Cal I appreciate all your questions.

I think that it's, it's been a
lot of fun and I, I appreciate

you tolerating my my weaving.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: You know, I, I
think listeners of the podcast are like, I

would be, when I talk to myself sometimes
my thought patterns kind of random, so

I, I think my listeners probably put

up with it pretty good.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I've,
discovered over time that the, the

most important part is to, I can
ramble as, and I can I think this is

actually what Donald Trump does too.

I can ramble as much as I want and
go off on as many tangents as I

want, as long as I bring it back to
the core of the question at the end.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
So that's, that's something

that's taken a bit of practice.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh
yeah, that, that weave there.

Our famous four questions
are the same four questions

we ask of all of our guests.

And our first question, what
is your favorite grazing grass

related book or resource?

And I know initially you're gonna
say this book called Herd by

this Hobbes guy, but beyond that

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: I actually have
the same answer for all people in this.

In this regard, the, the most important
grazing book, the most important

book on ranching I have ever read
is called How to Win Friends and

Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Because
it doesn't matter how good of a

grazier you are, it doesn't matter
how good at animal nutrition you are,

it doesn't matter of those things.

If you can't get people on your
side and you can't get people on

your team, then you can't, then
you're, you can't move the world.

You can't make good things happen for you.

It's, it's probably the most
important book that I've ever read.

And, a lot of people think it's a,
a a, a A guide for manipulation.

And at first when people who
read it who are not used to being

genuinely interested in other people
read it, it can feel that way.

But the more it sort of sinks into
your bones, the more you just find

yourself actually being interested in
other people and realizing that the

only way to get what you want in life
is to give other people what they want.

So.

And, and finding ways to
build connections with people.

So I, the, so the, the, the best,
the, the, I think the book that

can, that can make people's grazing
careers improve the most is how to

win friends and influence people.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Excellent
resources there, but I don't

believe, I say, I don't believe.

I know it's not been recommended
in this segment of the famous

four before on the podcast, so

very good.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Nice.

What the curiosity, what's the,
what's the what's the most popular?

What are the top three most
popular recommendations?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Uh,
Usually a Allen Nation book, a Allen

Savory book, or a Greg Judy book.

Those are, are basically just kind of
sum um, sand, sand um, sand country

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Hmm.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: almanac
gets recommended a fair amount.

uh, I think that that really sums it up.

Those three authors probably
get recommended more than

anyone else.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: right.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

Our second question, what is
your favorite tool for the ranch?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Cell phone.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Again,
a answer I didn't anticipate.

So expand why it's the most

important

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: the only
way to try to do anything on the ranch

that is meaningful for how the ranch
interacts with the rest of the world

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
without using a cell phone.

It's, you can, you can record
yourself talking, you can make calls

so you can track, you know, your
data with your, with your animals,

your, your grazing management.

You know, it's, it's a
incredibly useful tool.

You know, you can tell your wife
you're gonna be late for dinner.

That's, those are all very.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
Which is probably the most

important of

all those

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: That's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: features.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: And, and,
and I, I say that specifically because

I have gotten the most benefit.

the reason I was be, I have been able to
go from nothing to slightly, more than

nothing, but only, only very slightly,
is because I've been able to tell my

story and it's technology and, and

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
and social media that have

been able to help me do that.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah, very true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amazing tool there that we
often don't think about that.

Um, it's always within
a few feet of me, which.

Can be a negative or a positive.

Our third question, what
would you tell someone?

Just getting started?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: If it is
worth doing, it's worth failing at

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah.

Excellent advice.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
reason I say that is

because there are a lot of things,
a lot of decisions that you have

to make that could go sideways.

But if it's in line with what you
think is right and what you think is

the, the like, I mean, if, if there's
one thing about me that's, that's

maybe a little bit unusual is that,
is that I'm, I'm ready to die, you

know, I could go today, I'm fine.

I'm ready to go.

And so.

All fear and anxiety is
just a of fear of death.

fear of failure is
ultimately fear of death.

Why you?

Why are you, you're afraid of
your reputation being savaged

or running out of food?

This is all, this is all a
manifestation of the fear of death.

And, and if you can overcome
that and be willing to fail

then you can do the right thing.

And the world needs more people who
are willing to do the right thing with

the recognition that the, the ultimate
conclusion of doing the right thing

could be somebody kills you for it.

So, or, or it causes you to fail so badly
that you end up dying or, or whatever.

You go down a deep, dark rabbit
hole of, of whatever, you know.

it's, if you're gonna
do it, go all the way.

Don't half-ass it.

And, it's do things that are
worth doing, even if you fail.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
Yeah, excellent advice.

Our fourth question, where can
others find out more about you?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: My Instagram
is my first name, dot my last name.

TikTok is first name.my

last name.

Hobbes Do mere.

You can, you're welcome to Google me.

Please try to spell the last name right.

If you, it's gonna try to get
you to say, did you mean Hobbes,

Margaret, but no spell it.

Spell it correctly.

And you'll find all kinds
of podcasts I've been on.

I mean, I think this podcast probably
covers pretty much everything I've

talked about on other, other podcasts.

Maybe I have slightly different
ideas now than I have in the past.

Uh,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah,

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: weird.

So, you'll get weirdness wherever you go.

So, TikTok Instagram, I think
it cross posts to Facebook.

I don't have access to Facebook, but I
think all my Instagram stuff cross posts

onto a, onto a Facebook over there.

So there's plenty of stuff out there.

And most importantly, can read my book.

So

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: yeah.

I

don't forget

your book in there.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
the book, so go on Amazon.

The

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: I.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: of
book, the book is Herd Animals

That Gave Rise to Humanity and
Why We Need Them more than Ever.

it's a, it's a weekend read.

It's like 165 pages total printed pages.

Super easy to read.

I, I, I worked very hard
to make it approachable.

I, you know, the first version, my
wife was like, what is this dude

you got, this is, this is not good.

You have got to make
this more approachable.

Like, he, she's like, babe,
nobody wants to hear you talk

about axiomatic presuppositions.

Okay.

Like, you, talk about
fundamental principles.

Instead, you need to rewrite this.

So I worked very hard to make it
approachable inclusive not antagonistic.

I mean, I may have come across a little
bit antagonistic at certain points during

this during this podcast, which, which
I certainly didn't, didn't mean to do.

although we all, we are
all in this together.

But at a certain point we need to have
robust and vigorous debate and discussion.

But I wrote the book to be inclusive
of as many people and as, as many

thought patterns and as many cultures
and, and many ways of doing things

as, as I, as I possibly could.

So, go out and get it, and if you do get
it, please leave me a review on Amazon.

So, luckily it's the, it's the bestselling
best new bestselling new release in

ecology, animal husbandry sustainable
agriculture, which is pretty cool

because the thesis of the book is that
ecology, animal husbandry and sustainable

agriculture are the same thing.

So,

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh, very Yes.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
that's pretty cool.

People are, are, are enjoying it.

It's already on the curriculum for
the sustainability bachelor's degree

at a university in Madrid, Spain.

So, that's pretty satisfying.

The Forward is

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Oh yeah.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Dr.

Jeff Goodwin, who runs the Center
for Grazing Lands and Ranch

Management at Texas a and m.

So, he, he he's, he's a great guy.

If you haven't had him on the podcast,
a fantastic resource, really smart guy.

And I hope you, I hope
you guys enjoy the book.

I'm really interested to get some
feedback, figure out what I got wrong

figure out what I got right and see
what we can do for the next one.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Very good.

I, I am enjoying it.

Like I said, I'm almost finished it.

Uh, We had grandkids this weekend,
so my weekend didn't have enough

time in it, but I gotta spend a
lot of time with my grandkids,

which is always great.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: That's

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Yeah, Uh,
Before we wrap up and end today's

show, do you have a question for me?

Hobbes?

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: you gonna,
yeah, I have a question for you.

Are you going to, why didn't you
use my book as bedtime stories?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Well, that,
that is a really good question.

They didn't, I, I have books and I
have stuff I'm always reading with me,

but very few people want me to read
'em out loud and I, I just don't know.

why.

I guess it's, my voice

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
have a very saunas voice, Cal.

It's very, very beautiful.

No, I I thank, thank you very much
for for putting on this podcast

and inviting me to be on it.

And it was a, it's a, it
was a pleasure to be here.

So, what's, what's, what's, what have you
gotten out of the, out of the podcast?

What's been the most rewarding part
about doing the podcast for you?

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
overall or this, just

this episode.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
Oh, overall, yeah.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: It's
the building of the network.

You mentioned earlier, relationships
and code calling people.

Um, As I mentioned earlier,
I'm not a cold calling person.

In fact, when my phone rings, I have
a slight big a panic that I have to

talk to someone on the phone and I
didn't rehearse the conversation.

So, so, so that's where, where I go.

But the building of the network, getting
people in uh, talking about what they're

doing, thinking about and applying that to
what I'm evaluating, reflecting and upon

what I'm doing so I can do a better job.

But building that, that relationship with
all these people has been tremendous.

And the amount of people that I can
pick up the phone and call and it's

not a cold call is really nice and.

The second thing that really comes
from this, you know, when you go to a

conference, and I've talked about this on
a podcast before you go to a conference

and you get that energy from everyone
else and you come home and you're willing

to do great things, whatever the subject
is, this podcast is like a mini dose

of that energy.

Each podcast episode I do.

And I hope for the listeners,
it's the same thing.

They get just that little shot.

Some days your motivation's lacking.

Some days your discipline could be better,
but maybe this podcast can encourage

you to do that next step that you need

to do

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601:
It's a conference in a can.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602:
conference in a can.

Yes.

That that's the um, description or
definition of a podcast I've ever heard.

Conference in a can.

hobbs_1_07-14-2025_100601: Excellent.

Well, I, I really appreciate you, Cal.

Thank you very much.

cal_1_07-14-2025_100602: Thank you, Hobbs.

I appreciate you coming

My two takeaways from the conversation
with Hobbes today, both come from

his book and the conversation.

I think both were brought up today.

One is viewing beef as a waste product
with rather than a byproduct, and

I just think that paradigm shift to
viewing cattle is a way to manage your

ecosystem to be that keystone species.

And viewing beef as the
byproduct is a, a good shift.

I'm not sure what I gain by going
a step further and deciding it's a

waste product and how, and if I do,
how does that change what I'm doing?

I get when I take and beef is no longer
my focus and but beef is the byproduct.

In that case, then I'm managing, I'm
doing what's best for the land and

the beef I produce is a byproduct
that I'm trying to maximize.

I don't know what I get from going that
next step to the waste to making a waste

product, but it's an interesting thought.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on
it and jump over to the Grazing

Grass community and share them.

The other thing is the position of
hind gut fermenters in our ecosystems.

Now, granted, as we compress compact
cows and force 'em to be non-selective

in what they're eating, they can
handle, they can eat those forages that

we or the hind gut fermenters would
be eating those low quality stuff.

So you're forcing your cattle to
consume, consume everything there.

So nonselective, so they're grazing
that lower quality stock or forage

as well as the higher quality stuff.

But does that mean, maybe we should be
having some high gut fermenters in there.

I know when we've talked with
other producers, uh, some of

them are running some donkeys.

A lot of people have horses.

What if you incorporate those into
your grazing management rather than

leaving them in a lot by the house?

Of course you lose some of that.

Easy to get to.

I don't know all questions I don't
have answers for, but I'm here with

you as we work through this and, and
hopefully come to a better understanding.

I've really enjoyed Hobbes
coming on today and sharing.

Cal: Thank you for listening to this
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