Grazing Grass Podcast sharing Regenerative Ag Stories

. cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: We'll
get started with the Fast five.

Our first question, what's your name?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Name is Joel Hollingsworth,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: And
Joe, what's your farm's name?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
smoke River Ranch.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Where are you located it?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
We're in northeast Oklahoma, about an hour

and a half east, slightly north of Tulsa.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, very good.

And what livestock species do you graze?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So when we built the operation,

I was planning on doing the whole
function stacking thing, right?

'cause function, stacking is what
helps drive profitability if you've

got more operations per acre that
are synergistically working together.

We've gotten bit the last handful
of years by the lack of labor

availability in the rural marketplace.

It's just been a ongoing, massive problem.

say my biggest mistake as a business owner
the last four years been, I was slow to

admit to myself how bad that problem is,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I just kept wanting to hold

hope of like, there's gotta be
functioning people out there.

If I could just hire 'em, I'll get the
branch more profitable, I'll pay 'em more.

It's not a money problem, it's just
truly a culture and a people problem.

And so we were doing, like I was trowing
some Gulf Coast native sheep for like

a dual purpose wool and meat breed.

I was gonna breed 'em to like the
Shepherd's Cross everywhere in Oklahoma.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
sheep.

I was working with building the
like hardy goat group that was

like a Kiko Tex type cross goat.

Had hens, ducks dairy cow, some
dairy goats, had some horses.

I'm basically pairing part everything
back except for the big old tri

density beef and probably gonna
keep working with the horses

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
everything.

Besides that, I'm gonna do the hens
just purely at a scale enough for the

people living here on the ranch of
like the teams and the families here.

super small scale like hardy,
non commercially viable dairy.

I'm gonna do like a Dexter Guernsey
jersey, Piney Woods like Griffin Family

Line cross for like these little super
small framed dairy cows that will hand

milk for raw milk for me and they're like
families here 'cause I love raw milk and

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
to have those for just the health of the

local families and kids, I just don't have
a labor based to grow those as operations.

So we're focusing all the way in
on the ultra density beef herd and

just cranking the handle on scaling
that 'cause that's our, that's

our niche of what we're good at.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: You know
that that labor issue is huge.

We, I'm the labor force on our farm here.

My dad's 77.

We try and hire people to help.

In fact, we're, we're hiring or we
have our ne or my nephew helping

dad some right now, but finding
quality help consistent is difficult.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
It is really brutal.

I've become convinced I just need
to take a deep and slow approach of

starting with young guys and just

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
from zero.

I kept looking of like, I've got
pretty good reach from like our socials

and like just what we're up to and
we're known to be pretty bleeding

edge in the high density world.

And I've got no problem pulling interns
and people interested nationally or

even internationally, just nobody's
capable of staying the course.

They make commitments and don't keep ' em.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
It is just a huge just

time and energy burn.

Doing the recruiting, doing
the, like the vetting, doing

the training and the onboarding.

And then like three to six
weeks in, they just quit.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I put thousands of man hours

in this and I'm not getting
anything to return from it.

I just, I have to pivot

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
different.

'cause insanity is doing the
same thing over and over again.

Expected a different result and I
wasn't getting a different result.

So like I had to admit it to myself.

I'm like, okay, this isn't working.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

It's, it's,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
having success with labor now with.

One or two young guys we're working
with that just graduated college, I've

started vetting for young men that
come from strong families who are still

in relationship with their family,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh, yes,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
have mentors and people in their

life who still actively pursuing
wisdom and counsel in their life.

Because like our

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
we're, we're pretty bleeding edge.

Like we're doing a lot of things really
different that tends to select for

people who are that kind of disagreeable
outside the norms type personality

type, which I'm one of those people.

But what comes with that is
that lone wolf type temperament

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh, yes,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
wolf type temperament.

They don't do a good job
functioning as a team.

And so the second they get a
little like, of like, look, you

have to be a team player here.

They just walk and vetting for guys
like what the real, the young guy we

have now, he's being super successful.

I, I love how he's doing and
really hoping that I can get

him to stay for the long haul.

I met him through his dad.

His dad's a part of like, some
of the Facebook circles I'm a

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh, yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
world.

And his dad's a local graziers here in
Oklahoma his dad reached out to me like,

Hey, my kid's come back from college.

He's not quite sure what he wants to do.

He'd likes some, just some summer
job for a little while until he can

get his feet under and get oriented.

I was like, yeah, come on.

And the dynamic there has been so
different he has this pride of like,

he doesn't wanna let his dad down.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
honor the community

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
from that one difference there.

And he's also in deep relationships
still with his parents.

Like a lot of young guys these
days aren't like, he'll have deep

conversations with his mom and his
dad and get their advice on things.

And like that has brought to
things a level of maturity that

so many employees we've tried to
recruit just haven't possessed.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
that has been the differentiator.

And I'm, I'm, I've just literally put that
on our like procedures now of like, name

to me, the mentors you have in your life
and what you do when they tell you you're

off base and you don't believe them.

And like that is the one difference.

Like that's what's made it different now.

And focusing on those rarer young men
who have the ability to kind of be on

the outside as a forerunner, that like
little bit disagreeable personality

type, but still have a commitment to
keeping elders in their life who are

speaking wisdom into their lives.

has opened a different door.

Now.

I'm not gonna have the bandwidth of people
because our whole generation's atomized.

I'm not gonna able to find young
guys who actually are not lone

wolves at a very high frequency.

the ones I'm finding that bring that
with them are worth so much more.

It

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
other problems.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

Yeah, I can see that.

And I'm glad you're, you're having
some success there because that's,

that's an unexpected issue to go with
everything else you're trying to do.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
We've been to the point where I've

been paying like 20 bucks an hour
in cash under the table, rooming and

boarding young guys like, man, you
could stack some capital like that.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
flexible to like, let them be able to

flex in other things they're doing.

I've even flexed a couple of these
guys up to 20 or 25 or 30 bucks an

hour and it just didn't do any good.

the pay isn't the issue, it's
just it's culture and character.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

I.

I find that as well with people
we've had hired that you would

think the money would be a driving
force, and it doesn't seem to be.

It's, it's like we're, and we're
paying a lot more than we thought

we would have to pay for help.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yep.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: It's
interesting dynamic there.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based

livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve

the land animals and our lives.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,

challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from

their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.

Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.

This is the place for you.

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For 10 seconds about the farm
this week we got our hay baled.

uh, mixed fillings about it.

Originally going into this
year we were baling zero hay.

We were gonna purchase all of our hay.

I think that's the goal
we're working towards.

With the extra rain, we
have plenty of grass.

If I'd had my call, we would've
let it all just stockpile.

However, dad thought we needed
to get some bale and in the

barn, which turned out it worked.

We also did something on some of my
lease land that we'll see how it works.

We wrapped up some Issa Lesa, ccia, Lesa.

I was gonna have to go in and brush
hog it, trying to manage my grazing

so that I can set that Issa back.

And I'll be honest, I'm not
having too good of luck.

The last two years, the
CSA has been winning.

So this year I was gonna go in
and brush hog it and I thought,

well, we have the haying equipment
here, why don't we wrap it up?

We get the same effect as baling
it or as brush hogging it.

So we don't have that going
to seed like we would have.

We're trying it.

We'll see how it is.

We'll see how that hay is this winter.

I know it's gonna be stemy, but
there's lots of leaves on it.

And those leaves, I think
they'll like pretty good.

So we'll see how that goes.

We should be, if you're listening to
this, we should be finished hauling

hay, or at least really close.

We're using a hay trailer
from Load It Trailers.

So if you're in northeast Oklahoma,
you might wanna rent that to use.

And in full transparency, that's
my company Load It Trailers.

We rent out a few trailers.

On 10 seconds about the podcast.

I may have 30 seconds today.

The first thing on the podcast, we
have Joel Hollingsworth from Smoke

River Ranch on today start talking
about ultra high density grazing.

We are going to continue that theme of
ultra high density grazing for the next

few weeks, so you'll want to tune in.

I think high density grazing or ultra
high density grazing is really interesting

and I'm wanting to implement it better
here, and hopefully you can gain

some value from these conversations.

Secondly, it is county fair time.

At least in my county it is.

And Todd, Todd Blocker.

If you're out there, you're
sweating through your shirt

right now, it's a little warm.

I'm in the AC recording
this, so go figure.

Third thing about the podcast
I have say thank you to Farmer

Tyler on Farmer Tyler Ranch.

Do you all watch his channel on YouTube?

Just do a search Farmer Tyler Ranch
is in California runs some beef cows.

He's always doing shop projects.

He did a shout out for the Grazing Grass
Podcast on last Wednesday's episode.

I really appreciate that.

Thank you, farmer Tyler.

And with all that, let's get back to Joel.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: What
year did you start grazing?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So I'm pretty new into the industry.

I got my first CALS in the end
of 2020, so just going into the

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah, yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
really good mentors, which

is super accelerated.

My learning process, I'm more
of like an entrepreneur that

farms than purely a farmer.

I fell in love with this stuff
because in my journey, I got sick

in 2009 where I went to college.

I lost 20 pounds of weight in about
two weeks, and my little brother

has Crohn's disease and typically
if one sibling has it, it's like

a 50 50 chance the other has it.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I went to the doctor and.

college, they put me on
irritable bowel medication.

The drugs made me sicker and
they also made me suicidal.

And I was just like, man, like screw this.

Like I've watched my little
brother go down this road.

I'm not gonna do the same

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Like he's still an immune

suppressants to this day.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
and so that pushed me down this

rabbit hole of like, okay, how
does nutrition alternative health

and wellness and all this work?

And that got me into Westin Price and
all sorts of stuff, and Westin Price

and is like book nutrition and physical
degeneration is study of like health

and food ways of people of like, this
is how people used to stay healthy.

some of the big threads there were like
pasture raised meats, wild caught fish,

like raw milk, fermented milk, like
keefer like sprouted grains, fermented

sourdough breads, things like that.

Getting rid of the antinutrients.

And pushed me down this whole rabbit
hole of, okay, like this is the

right practices of raising healthy
food, but the food's still not as

nutrient dense as it used to be.

What happened?

And through like a long series of events
that basically synthesized with my love

of history and macroeconomics and the
like study of civilizations in societies

where started to explore where erosion
and destruction of our soil also links

into my other passions of like history.

And realizing that our food's not as
nutrient dense because we've wrecked

our living soil biology that produces
the nutrient density in the food.

that got me really passionate
about regenerative agriculture.

And I was supporting farmers and
buying food from farmers and raw milk.

And that kept me alive through
some of my health crisis times.

Just like fermented milk with kafi, that
doesn't take much energy to digest it.

And as a young guy, I was always just
dreaming of like, well, maybe one

day I'll be able to make enough money
that like I can retire and then like

subsidize my own little hobby farm.

'cause I'm sure you understand like the
ability for young people to enter into

the industry these days is just tiny.

Like the challenges, the economic
problems, the problems we just

talked about, just on and on and on.

It's, too expensive to enter into
the industry and the industry's not

profitable enough to even make it worth
taking out loans to get started going.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Exactly
when I went to college, you know,

I thought I've gotta get a career.

So I can make some money so I can do what
I wanna do, which at the time was dairy.

I wanted to do more of a New Zealand
type grazing dairy at the time.

And I thought, I've gotta
make money some way.

And then I, I got married and had a couple
kids thought I have to earn some money.

So I came home and dared with my parents.

But partway through that
we were not successful.

And I got off the farm job and
worked off the farm for a couple

decades and still not quite where
I wanna be except I'm getting old.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yep.

I'm still pretty.

I'm, I'm a young gun.

I'm still 33, so I got plenty
of years left in my tank

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
so spent a lot of my life, so my, my

degree, I started college in engineering.

It was doing mechanical with
a nuclear focus I'd taken

some of Myra nuclear classes.

I got into statics and dynamics
and I was smart enough for it.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I got to where I was realizing I was gonna

have to spend my life in on a computer,
just crunching numbers for somebody else.

It's just like, man, this
is not what I want to do.

And so I pivoted and finished
my degree in business economics,

which I freaking loved.

'cause economics, it's like, it's a math
and a science, but it's also this kind

of weird black art of like, all these
things happen because of human nature.

And so it's like, it's much more
abstract than a hard science is.

And with the business econ degree,
I took all my finance and accounting

and management and all those other
type of business classes too.

so most of my background after college,
I graduated 2013 kind of just after

the housing crisis and the labor market
and the economy was kind of slow.

I spent a lot of time working
in just different small

business startups and trades.

And my dad would always like,
boy, what are you doing?

You're wasting your life.

You're bouncing between
all these different things.

I'm like, dad, like I feel
like I have this calling.

'cause originally I wanted to
be a preacher, but I just didn't

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
was something that I like.

didn't feel that peace about it of like,
this is where I was supposed to go.

I spent a good bit of my
life doing things like that.

Like I've been a part of some ministries
and got to preach from some pretty big

stages, but that, that door is never the
door that I've felt was the right door.

And so my dad was looking at me like,
kid, you've got so much potential.

You're just bouncing
around wasting it all.

And like I also interned
with a guy who's a physicist.

He does, this is like 2010 to almost 2020
where he does high speed tech startups.

He'll create a new

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
build a company around it,

fundraise, bootstrap it to market,
sell out the company, flip it,

and then go and do it again.

Right?

So I got to be a part of
things with him where like.

Going through all the mayhem of capital
raises and hostile takeover attempts.

Like one of his companies, JBL
tried to steal it from him.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
startup that's just lean and mean and

this multinational mega corporation
tries to come in and steal your tech.

Like, so I got to learn
so much from all that.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, I imagine so.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
that gave me this really broad based

background, understanding skills, like
how to fail forward and build things fast.

Entrepreneurial ability, like
the ability to learn, 'cause

even the learning's a skill.

And in 2020 when I launched my ranch, it
was like everything finally just unified

and integrated and all came together.

My dad was out here at my ranch
just like, oh, about two years

ago and he, he sat me down, looked
at me, he goes, son, get it now.

Like everything you did is now relevant
and I understand you were being faithful

even though I didn't get it at the time.

So like a young rancher, one of the
skills I'd learned interning with the

tech guy and a lot of the different small
business stuff I'd done was ability to

discern who's the people in the industry
that really know what they're doing.

then developing the skill to build
relationship to where you kind of

stubbornly but humbly kind of cozy
up to the right people of like,

Hey, I'm gonna be friends with
you whether you like it or not.

'cause I'm gonna like

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
enough until you want to be.

And learn based upon
other people's wisdom.

Like why make, why pay the price
of your own mistakes when somebody

else has already made them for you?

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
you wanna fail forward fast,

the best thing to do is learn on
other people's failures and then

fail forward at the new edge.

That push forward the fresh edge.

And we were able to grow from
what I started in Virginia.

So my original ranch we were doing
a little just fence company at the

time where one of my good friends
and I, we'd built this nice little

company that was doing like wood
privacy, high-end, black aluminum,

like just privacy fence type stuff.

And we were doing some nice high-end
jobs like Williamsburg, Virginia

and some of these more ritzy areas.

And we'd gotten asked to do
a fence quote out in Suffolk,

Virginia, which is pretty rural.

It's over across the river.

it was a lady with a recreational horse
farm who'd had her ditch mowed by the

city and they'd mowed her fence down.

She needed the quote for
insurance claims, right?

And while we were out there with her,
we were just talking and hanging out

and she brought up how she'd lost her
tax deduction 'cause it's no longer

agriculture with recreational horses.

And

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
she had been part of the program

that was like paying her not to grow
things, some of these subsidy programs.

She's like, I don't
fight this as honorable.

So she'd gotten rid of that.

what she didn't realize, the second order
effect of getting outta those programs

is they take away your tax deductions
for ag because now it's no longer ag.

so she'd been trying to find
people to lease the land of

farming of all excess acreage.

And everybody was wanting to
do either cotton or soy and

spray chemical over land.

And the relationships have been terrible.

And like, I'm just so tired of all this.

This isn't what I want.

She's like, I just wish I could find one
of those young people who are interested

in doing that Joel s grazing thing, where
like I can give 'em land for a fairly

inexpensive cost and they manage the place
and like grow the soil and the fertility

and the beauty of the land and they make
their money on the ranch and like, I don't

have to mow and take care of the property
anymore and I get my tax deductions back.

And I was like, well, I'd love to do that.

'cause I'd been dreaming
about doing it and

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
watching YouTube channels and things

like Greg Judy for a long time.

And signed a lease with her
for 28 acres for a buck a year.

And I

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
as a middle class guy with break

even net worth and no money for cows.

And it was one of those moments where
you feel like God's just opening

a door and you know, like this is
the way, go this direction, but you

have no idea how you're gonna do it.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
of obedience you just say

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
you sign on the dotted line.

So.

I, I signed a deal with her with
no clue how I'm gonna finance cows.

I know the fence.

I've run a fencing company.

So I'm like posting videos on my
Twitter out there, putting electric

fencing in, talking about the little
project or what I'm gonna do and

just this little serendipitous
providential alignment happened.

So I had joined Twitter in, in 2019.

I had joined it because I wanted
to learn about Bitcoin Twitter

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
was where all the Bitcoiners hung out.

Like there wasn't the education
resources and books available

that there are now about Bitcoin.

And so I was there trying to just
figure out what is this Bitcoin thing?

I'd gotten really curious about it
because in some of the, like the

ministry stuff, I'd been around
some of the small business stuff.

I'd been around, I'd seen some
of these problems with like small

dairies getting their bank accounts
seized because of cash structuring.

So it was all cash customers and their
bank gets frozen for like 180 plus days

and they go outta business 'cause it's,
they like, who could run your business

without having access to your treasury?

Like you need

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
a business or like civil asset, like

forfeiture, like just a lot of this
stuff was happening and I was intuiting

some of what happened during COVID with
like the de banking and conservatives.

And so I was like, man, there's gotta
be an answer to some of this stuff of

assets that you can hold that are liquid,
that are more like a money you can trade

around with your local customers and
community, that you're not gonna get

rug pulled by some government entity
telling your bank to take your money away.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I'd gotten curious and

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
about those things, which is why

I wanted to get into Bitcoin.

So all these little things lined up.

I get in 2019, this opportunity,
this low cost land lease.

I'm on Twitter, get totally
Bitcoin pilled of understanding

that Bitcoin's the future.

I took out every penny of zero
interest, credit card debt,

or any debt I could find.

And I went, all went on
Bitcoin about $6,000.

and at the same time when Bitcoin
went on that bull run up to $69,000

in like 20, 20, 20, 21 era, my Twitter
account grew with it because all

the energy of Bitcoin going up grew
this Twitter community a Bitcoiners.

So I went from like 200
followers to like 20,000.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I'm just posting about this little

project I'm working on on Twitter,
like not telling anybody I don't

know how to get the cows, just like
share that I'm, I'm gonna go do this.

And I got DMed by, which is called
DMed by a wealthy Wall Street guy.

He is like, Hey, this little cow project
you're doing, I wanna be a part of this.

I was like, you don't.

Like I'm gonna raise Heritage breed
Piney Woods that are horned and

spotted cows with zero resale value.

I've never farmed before.

I'm gonna make all sorts of mistakes
ruining the hard way in the real world.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
there's like, why

there's no money in this.

What, what are you, what are you saying?

And he wrote me back this letter
explaining why he wanted to be

a part of this ranch with me.

of it was just, he'd been following
me for a while and we had a lot

of alignment, a lot of things.

part of it was just he saw the
world before everybody else did.

he explained to me like he had worked
at investment work, was working in like

investment banking, and he understood
we were starting to get onto war footing

with China, which is now becoming more
and more obvious like five years later.

he also was leaning into where like
knowing supply chain volatility and

risks, like so much of our animal feed
inputs in the US are dependent upon

like amino acid supplements and things
that are all manufactured in China.

And so he's like, look, I'm worried
about food security and input security.

I want to have food for my family, not
just caloric security, but nutrient

densities, security that's not tied to
all these fragile inputs that I'm seeing.

He said, I'm also worried about like de
banking or conservatives, like seizure

of retirement accounts or bail-in risks.

Like all the things we saw happening
during the COVID era, like before COVID,

he saw this and was concerned about it.

He said, look what I want.

I want to own hard assets inside of
trusted relationships in communities

where they're outside of the
mainstream investment Wall Street

circles where nobody can really
touch 'em or take 'em away from me.

I want to have true security of
quality of food for my family.

And it's not to be dependent upon
any inputs, just sunshine and rain.

I was like, okay, I, I think
we could do something with

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
like, I don't really care

about financial returns.

It's not his goal.

He just wants to have like a
diversification play that's uncorrelated,

like an inflation hedge of a hard asset.

And so he, like, he didn't wanna be
a farmer, he didn't wanna like be

on the board of a farming company.

I have to make decisions
talk about all the time.

He just wanted to like solve those
core problems and own the assets.

we put our heads together and came up
with this herd share program, which has

grown into what it is today at Smoke
River, where he bought the original

breeding stock of my original 18 cows.

then every year we wean the calves,
we split the calves, the lion share,

the calves go to me to fund the farm.

And he gets a little bit of real
yield just for like return on his

effort and capital he is put in.

then we just refresh his breeding
stock and sell off the old ones

for the farm to make money on meat.

And then he just maintains holding
of the younger animals to have

physical legal claim to 'em.

Right?

And so we launched that,
that went really well.

then COVID happened and all of a
sudden everybody gets concerned

about all the exact things he was

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah, yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
you remember that era, grocery

store shelves are empty butchers,
soap packed, nobody can get

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

You can't get in.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
And my phone blows up.

It's like always his friends start calling
me and all the people on Twitter who'd

see me talking about these herd shares.

Like, hey, like, can I
get some of those too?

I was like, well, no, I
don't have enough land.

But yeah, we'll figure it out.

And one of my sages the same
guy who's the in the like,

startup world, the tech world.

He's also been a father figure in
my wife that's really taught me a

lot, helped make me who I am today.

One of his sayings, he says, miracles
take a lot of hard work because you

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
hold open the space until

the miracles arrive.

would be a good theme for my
story the last five years it's

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
to say yes to the opportunity that I know

is the right one and then stay the course
until it all just kind of blossoms, right?

And Father brings the support I
need or the people I need or the

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I need.

So we did what a lot of people
talked about during, during COVID

we got a couple friends together.

bought a big piece of land out
here in Oklahoma and this land.

Had one of my buddies,
he co-signed the loan.

He's a high net worth and he underwrote it
and helped to launch everything out here.

There's a lot of details in story
it to get lengthy, to give 'em all.

And so we bought the property it had
about 18 months of capital runway from

the fundraising and the community that
I rallied behind to go do it with us.

That 18 months of Capital
Runway was purely covering the

carry cost of the property.

That's not installing infrastructure
for electrical fences.

That's not

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Trailers, trucks, tractors.

And that's not buying cows like that's
having a piece of property where

it brings some cows from Virginia.

And we're nowhere near the scale of
cattle needed to actually make it go.

But I knew we had
appetite for herd shares.

So I went, started doing the
podcast circuit, advertising it,

going and calling the people who
told me they were interested.

And we scaled up the ranch from cows I
brought with me from Virginia to where

like, high 400 now probably 360, 3

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
units.

And we're probably gonna cross
over to 500 head this year.

went from just small hobby size farm
to, branch sizes in the us 89% of

ranches or less than a hundred cows,
10% are 100 to 500, 1% are over 500.

So within five years, we're gonna
be a top 1% of ranch by size

in the us, which has been wild.

I mean, growing a ranch at the speed
of like a high speed tech growth

company the brass techs hard world
of real things, a farming has been

been adventurous to say the least.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

So, so in Virginia you had one
hair herd share partner with that.

And then once you've got to
Oklahoma, how many do you have now?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Probably about two dozen or so.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Still not a huge number, but
it, it is a huge number when you

start considering everything.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Raised about a mill and a

half of capital in herd shares

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh wow.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yeah.

Our herd share owners are
basically two buckets of sizes.

We've got some young people
that own like one to three cows.

They wanna just put a tell their
friends, they own a cow and

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
bit of food security.

And they're also kind of VIP
members of what we're doing.

So they get first claim to production
off the farm and that's like a

food security bonus there as well.

And then the other bucket is families
who just want to have food security

and never have to buy meat again.

So they own anywhere from
like 15 to 60 animals.

so

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
got a good chunk of our herd

show owners are actually pretty,
pretty sizable participants.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: In that
process, going from Virginia, Oklahoma.

Why Oklahoma?

I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So when we were launching the project

for scaling, what I was doing when I
knew we had like appetite for people

wanting to do this originally we had built
this little thing I called the cattle

co-op and it was intended to grow into
a nonprofit where I open sourced this

herd share model and helped other farmers
replicate it to build their own farms.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
And the goal was to just match, make a

lot of these people, I had to, wanted to
invest in herd shares with other farmers.

And ended up happening was,
one, I grossly underestimated

the complexity of this system.

I mean, it's pretty elegant and
simple from the herd show owner

perspective, but from the operational
leadership perspective, it's a

lot more complex than I realized.

I, I have a lot of diverse skill that
I just assumed other people also have.

And they, they just don't.

And like everybody talks about
regenerative farms, one of the challenges

is you gotta be a farmer plus a marketer
the farm in the way I've built it.

I have to be a farmer, I have
to be a marketer, I have to be

a community leader in patriarch.

I have to be a hedge fund manager.

Managing stakeholders and assets
and cash flows against all these

differentiated time horizons and
incentive and motivation groups.

I have to be an accountant who's
tracking and keeping really accurate

books and records like we had to build

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
and database systems.

Like there's just layer upon the layer
of things you have to be good at.

And I've got a really,
really skilled team here.

One of the things I'm excited
about is for running, reversing

the brain drain out of agriculture.

'cause so much of the young generation
is just gone into the laptop class where

the money's in trading meme coins and
tech stocks and high frequency trading.

It being in investment banking.

Right.

And most of America has just
been gutted as far as agriculture

manufacturing where there's no like.

There's no real interest from the young
generation and participating in it.

Part of that's just where the money's at
and part of that's just the challenges

currently in the industry and building
the farm the way we're building it,

we're overcoming a lot of those problems
and I've been able to pull in a team

of people that are really high cow over
people that can wear a lot of these

different hats in super skilled ways.

we ended up pivoting from the cattle
co-op, kind of decentralized, helping

small scale farms like that 20 to
40 head size type groups with COVI.

Like the threat model also changed
like security of logistics and

inputs and things like that.

Got a lot shakir during COVI,
the attack on small scale

farmers, whether politically or
anything else really accelerated.

And so like defensibility and like
the social narrative and political

realm also really got important you
need a certain level of scale to

overcome a lot of those problems.

And so it stopped making as much sense
to do this really small scale farm thing.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So a lot of the really high value people

I was talking to in the cattle co-op
conversations, I was just like, Hey, let's

pull together, build a larger proof of
concept farms, solve these key problems

to build out the systems, the tools and
capabilities to make this easier for

other people to follow in our footsteps.

But we can also build this
kind of umbrella organization.

That is already out there going
and winning the narrative or out

there engaged in local politics
and solving a lot of these key

constraints of like input stuff, right?

Like I'm doing high density
grazing to where we we're grazing

stockpile forges during the winter.

I need protein supplement, but like
all the cattle cubes and things on the

market are terrible in their ingredients.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
need a certain level of scale to be able

to bully manufacturers into producing
things you desire and then making that

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
for other farms, right?

We originally looking at like Texas and
Tennessee and Kentucky and like a lot

of the states people think about, right?

And we were looking at Texas and
land prices were crazy high at the

time in 2020 or 20 22, 20 21, 20 22.

And one of my allies was here in Oklahoma.

He's the high net worth guy.

He's a lawyer.

He runs his family investment
office here in Oklahoma.

I was like, you're in Oklahoma.

You're really politically connected.

Why have we not looked at Oklahoma?

And he is like, well, I don't know.

Nobody looks at Oklahoma.

And so we looked at Oklahoma.

The first property we found was
the property we're on today.

And the original

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
too big, it's too expensive,

let's keep looking.

And we get like two, three weeks
out from that and I just can't get

that first property outta my head.

so I get what the team, I'm like,
guys, are you guys feeling the same

way I am about the original property?

They're like, yeah.

I was like, all right, let's take three
days and pray about it and reconvene.

got back together.

They're like, yeah, that's the place
we have to just go and figure it out.

So

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I went and hit the streets to kind of

rally a few more people behind it with
us and raise a little more capital.

And then we just jumped here to Oklahoma.

We've rock and rolling here ever since.

Where we're at here in Eastern
Oklahoma, as you know, since you're

here everybody thinks of Oklahoma.

Like, it's like the
desert, dry prairie west.

Like just flat, no rainfall in the east.

We're in the foothills of the Ozarks.

It's much more akin climate wise to like
Northern Arkansas or Southern Missouri.

Like we're

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
inches of rainfall a year.

It's hilly.

There's trees.

It's beautiful.

It's a really productive area.

one of the things I really appreciate
about being here is with trying to

solve the cattle genetics pro problem
for ultra high density, which we can

touch on some later here in Oklahoma,
it's basically the worst of all worlds.

I've got fescue, toxic fescue,
got extreme summer heat.

Currently no shade until I
like put in some trees for

Savannah style ilbo pasture.

High humidity, high parasite
load, wild temperature swings will

swing 60 degrees in a given day.

You'll get down deep into the negatives
in the winter, but it won't stay cold.

It'll oscillate up
above freezing where you

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: we,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
freezing rain, just wanting

to kill your animals.

Like it's the worst of everything.

So being here, if I can do ultra high
density genetics here, they basically

translate anywhere in the US pretty well.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I mean maybe if they ran some

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
non-modern mama stock,

some that was local.

then ran like our bowls on top of it.

They'd have some incredible
genetics really quickly.

So if they can take the pressure of this
corner of Oklahoma with all those just

antagonists, they can handle it anywhere.

So I'm, I'm really
happy to be in Oklahoma.

It's played out well where the
culture, the people, I mean, minus the

labor problems, which is a universal

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
thing.

That's not just America, like talking
to Jacob Wilke in Australia or like,

it's just Western culture period.

But in general, I love the people
and the things here in Oklahoma,

there's more local businesses.

Granted, they're whipping
along and barely profitable.

Like there's a guy here, like just
up the street, runs a local barbecue

restaurant, like top 10 barbecue
in the nation, probably top five.

Like he's won competition's,
like incredible barbecue,

the best I've ever had.

His smoked brisket's incredible.

But like every time I talked to
him, he's like, yeah, I'm thinking

about shutting the restaurant.

I made like 10 bucks this weekend.

There's just like, and that's the
nature of small business right now in

America is we're just barely surviving.

It goes with kind of this late stage
society economic turmoil where all the

middle class is collapsing, all the
money's getting sucked up to the top.

But yeah, I, I really
like it here in Oklahoma.

It's, it's not as much like modernized
America where everything's gone

corporate, and it's still kind
of rooted in American ideals.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Somewhere you made the dive

into ultra high density grazing.

Did you practice that in Virginia?

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joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So I was originally kind of into

the Greg Judy daily rotational
take half, leave half type model.

Somebody on Twitter actually
sent me Johan's book.

They were like, Hey,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
of how to do this the right way.

Like this is gonna blow your mind.

You need to read this.

I read it and it, that it,
it did, it blew my mind.

It took me about 18 months in two
reads of the book to really rock it and

understand like, this changes everything.

once I did, I went all in
on going that direction.

like tying my story in the high
density and then the economic

troubles of young ranchers.

All this together.

Like the big picture here that I
understood and even heard shares

was the challenges of young farmers
to start ranching in America.

So just to rattle off some statistics,
the average ranch in America loses 1.5%

return on assets per year.

If you don't factor land value
appreciation, those ranching families

would make more money as land
investment companies than ranching.

All they're getting outta ranching
is basically the tax deductions.

why most of these multi-generational
farms, you see them just slowly over

time, cutting up the land, selling it
off, and getting smaller and smaller.

17,000 ish ranches a year have
gone bankrupt in the US for

I think the last 42 years.

The national herd size is the
smallest it's been since the 1960s.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: right.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Back to the statistical ranch

sizes, 89% of ranches in America
are less than a hundred cows.

The average herd size of that
ranch of ranches is 22 animals.

The bulk of those ranches are
families that have full-time city jobs

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
full-time income from somewhere else.

The ranch is done just as a hobby passion
project, both for the tax deductions and

'cause their family's always done it.

They don't wanna let go of it.

By and large, ranch in America is a
losing activity, which is terrible.

Everything has been driven up to just
the industrial scale feed lot models.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I think it's 6% of ranches in the

US control of their land base and
produce 75% of the beef in America.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I, I hadn't heard
that number, but it wouldn't shock me.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yeah.

And you think about like how much
media attention there is out there

around regenerative agriculture

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
fed beef grass finishing.

Only 4% of the beef in
America is grass finished.

what percentage of that is
actually raised in the us?

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah,
probably a minute portion as imports

from South America and Australia.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Correct.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Okay.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
of that is actually imported.

So around 1%, maybe slightly less
is actually grass finished, meat

raised in America for the amount
of media attention around this.

I find that shocking.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right, and,
and especially, you know, when, when

I think about, from my viewpoint,
we talk about it all the time on

the podcast, so I, I see it a lot.

But yeah, for everyone else, of
course I know by my downloads that

a lot of people's not getting it.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yep.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
you look at this, you mix this with the

fact you've got a gutted middle class in
America, like the Working Cows podcast.

Did you catch that one or
just the acres One that I did.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
just the acres one.

I didn't catch the working gals.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So I'll plug the working cows One.

The Working Cows podcast was
when they were talking about

the tariffs a lot, and there was

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
was talking about the Bitcoin

strategic National Reserve.

Dug into the concept of Triffin
dilemma as it impacts a nation when

a nation is a world reserve currency.

the idea of Dutch disease,
which is when like Holland, the

terms that economics term comes.

When Holland discovered oil was a
natural resource and the government

mined all the oil or extracted or
whatever you call it, pumped it.

And they were giving universal basic
income to their citizens based upon

the income from the old discoveries.

And their thinking was was that
this is gonna lead to this giant

renaissance of their culture and
nation, like entrepreneurship, like

inventing the arts, the trades, there's
gonna be this giant flourishing.

And the exact opposite happened.

It gutted their like domestic
production and they just became

like a consumerist economy.

And the same things happened in
the US but what we've exported

as our natural resource is we've
discovered we can export dollars.

So Turin's dilemma is this idea
that being the world reserve

currency is an exorbitant privilege,
but also an exorbitant cost.

'cause you're forced to
run a trade-in balance.

'cause the world needs your
money in order to interact on

the national trade right sphere.

And what it causes is gutting
of your domestic production

starts with agriculture.

You see this like with Wendell Berry
and his book on Settling of America,

he wrote back in like the sixties and
seventies, which every single one of his

predictions came a hundred percent true.

And it got worse even
than he probably expected.

then you see that in the gutty of
manufacturing and the consolidation

of the middle class, where like the
1% of net worth are just growing and

growing because we've become this
financial services economy, right?

And you look at that and what
it's caused is asset prices to

run away from the generation.

Like that's both like
infrastructure, trucks, trailers,

cattle, but especially land.

'cause land's your

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
producing.

Right?

So the way I explained it is
land is basically monetized.

land is treated as an investment
store value asset where wealthy people

hold it as a hedge against inflation.

And the holding of the land is seen
through a financial perspective

rather than a production perspective.

And so just like gold, where gold is super
useful for industrial purposes and like

electronics and other things, it never
gets used for it because the monetary

premium of gold as an investment asset
being held in bank vaults is so high.

It out competes the
productive use cases of gold.

same things happen to land monetization
of land as an investment asset, as

outcompeted the productive capacity of
land to where land is no longer valued

based upon its production value, but its

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
value.

so due to that, you can't pay for
ranching, pay for the land of the

production of the land anymore.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

Yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
lot of these schools teaching about like

ranching these days teaching like buy,
sell, and all these different models,

which is the financialization of ranching.

Like it's just high frequency cattle
trading into ranching rather than

raising good genetics and selling beef.

what most of these schools teach now is
that you should separate the business.

The land holding should be a
land investment company, and the

ranch should be an operational
company that just leases the land.

And so you look at land versus like
rent rates versus ownership rates.

Average land Reese here in Oklahoma
is like, this part of Oklahoma

is like $35 per acre per year.

If, if you can find it and finding like
large collaborated acres that at that

land price is basically impossible.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
it's, it's super difficult.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yeah.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
run current interest rates and

run a calculation to own land,
now you are looking at about 20 to

22 times that as far as the cost.

So if you run, like I, I was reading an
article out of the University of Kentucky.

They did an analysis of like
the average 40 head cow calf

operation on rented pasture.

They were making about
$400 per cow per year.

But you 20 x your input price of land,
you're now about a thousand dollars to

$1,500 in the hole per cow per year.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
this is why we just see ranches

shutting down left and right.

And why, like another statistic,
the age of the average rancher in

America is 58 and a half years old.

every older rancher, every two older
ranchers retiring, you have less than

one young rancher taking their place.

It is a collapsing industry.

And so.

Understanding all this, understanding
the history of soil as it relates to

the rise and fall of civilizations.

Like another one of my favorite
books is Dirt, the Erosion of

Civilization by David Montgomery.

goes through and tracks like pattern
of societies like China, the Aztecs,

Rome, like all these different
people groups through history.

And his thesis is that while with
civilizations invested in their

soil, bank of fertility, they have
forest generation upon generation.

they stop investing in their soil bank,
they usually collapse within about a

generation because they get imperialistic.

It's like trying to steal from the
future by robbing future production

potential from their children,
much like the national debt

conversation we're currently having.

So that story's true in the us.

I mean, Jeffers even wrote about in early,
early American history, the quest to

go west was a quest for soil fertility.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
'cause the European tilling and

cropping model would cause so much
erosion on the East coast that it

was getting less and less productive.

Right?

And so we see this in America where it
really came to fruition in the 1930s.

You had the Great Depression and the
Dust Bowl all happen at once, but

we just cheated our way out of it.

We went and won the World War.

We got out of like this economic
problem by producing bombs to go

win and industrialized that way.

And then through winning the World War,
we became the World Reserve currency and

the Petro Dollar system got instituted.

And that's where you step forward.

You've got like Earl Butts, the plow
fence road, fence road go big or go

home, like consolidate the unproductive
ranches like uh, food is a weapon.

Like all that hit in
the narrative in the us.

what we did is we turned tools of war,
of the chemical, manufactured nitrogen

for bombs to bring it into agriculture.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
thing that made that possible was cheap

energy through the global reserve currency
of the petro dollar arrangement, right?

it bought us another generation.

generation.

Forward 40 years, you hit the seventies.

The world has the whole problem with
the US leaving the gold standard.

had robbed the world.

We couldn't back it anymore.

And we are just like, well, sorry guys.

Screw you.

That bought us another 40 years.

Fast forward, you got
the 2010 housing crisis.

It's like exactly
generational timescales here.

so now we're little over 10 years
past that and we're seeing what's

happening with COVID, the middle class
being totally collapsed, the political

turmoil, the foreign imperialism and
foolish wars we're getting entangled in.

Like these are all the patterns of
what happens in society when you

lose contact with your soil and
middle class production, right?

So my background, economics and
kind of my other passions in life.

Integrated into this opportunity.

I got starting the ranch in Virginia
and I knew I wanted to build something,

but I knew I had to take into account
all these phenomenas and problems.

And that's where the herd share
arrangement really came to be.

'cause when we came up with that, we
all realized really quickly this has the

potential to solve so many of these issues
because it's bringing behind me as the

farmer and delegating to me the authority
as a rancher where like, I get to make

the decisions, I get to run the systems.

I don't have people in my hair,
like as investors having problems.

'cause if they wanna participate as
the rule, like you're choosing to

just commission me as the steward.

If you

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
like it, vote with your feet and

withdraw your animals and leave.

It's commissioning me with leverage of
scale of people backing me, the ability

to run an operation that actually can
overcome some of these economic dynamics.

Like Jaime Elizondo, he says that
the, profitable scale of an operation

of cow calf in the US economically
viable is 500 cows of a cow calf.

And if you got 89% of ranches
at an average size of 22 cows,

we're we're just nowhere close.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right?

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
the herd shares was our first push

of like, okay, we need to start
building some legs on the stool here.

To overcome these things to make it
possible for young people to enter

the industry and enter the industry
in a way that's economically viable.

So that was one big piece.

And then the ultra high density was one
of the next ones because with the ultra

high density, you're able to grow your
carry capacity by like three to four x.

What's typically expected,
in my part of Oklahoma, you

know this 'cause you're local.

The extension office typically are
recommending like three to four acres

per cal running the numbers on my
grazing the spring and summer already.

We're at about point AC
acres per cow per year.

If we get three recoveries
to graze per year,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
recoveries is nothing around here.

I could probably get four we're

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
than four years in.

Like I've barely started building
carbon and everything in the soil.

I mean only this spring have I broken
down like the herbicide residues in

the soil to where my legumes and my
forbs aren't coming up and looking

burned because of like graz on and
stuff that's in the soil profile.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Like we're just getting

started and I'm already at 0.8

acres per cow.

now I've got capital scale from herd
share owners, plus actual like operational

efficiency on the ranch of carry capacity.

It's like basically free land.

And like as a rancher, I'm
sure you understand the biggest

driver of profitability.

One is carry capacity, stocking capacity.

Second to that is fertility,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
weights, all these other things,

like they're all trivial compared
to stocking rate and fertility.

And so stocking rates up with ultra
high density and then breeding super

early sexual, maturing, fertile genetics
according to Johann's, Eastman's grazing

principles or breeding principles.

It's given us this huge edge to now
I've got capital scale plus I've got

this massive three to four x boost in
operational efficiency of carry numbers.

And so it's given a leg up to where we are
not trapped in the same economic problems.

You probably know Dean Snyder being local.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes I do.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
He sent out a text message a

couple weeks ago to a bunch
of us northeast Oklahoma guys.

It was like, Hey, like,
let's, let's get together.

We're always talking at the Graz Lands
coalitions about getting the local guys

together and spending more time together.

Like, we've never done it.

Let's just do it.

I was like, let's hamburg's at my place.

7:00 PM July 3rd.

Like, alright, I'm in.

Like seven or eight guys came.

It was awesome.

We had a great time.

I was the youngest guy in the room.

I was the least years
of experience grazing.

The only other guy that had any
experience with high density or even

like really pushing on regenerative
stuff was a young guy named Zeke.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
he's,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Zeke.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
since 2013, I think.

He's like 38.

I'm like 33.

And everybody else is older guys, like
guys there who run feed lots or like,

like 800 plus cow sizes or one of the guys
is one of the main suppliers for Whole

Foods and it's like four state region.

like a lot of guys with a
lot of experience ranching.

It was an awesome crew of guys.

last Saturday one of those guys came to
my place after getting together at Dean's

and when he first got there, we went
and saw the herd down by the water spot.

And I'm running Piney Woods's
Genetics Cattle, which are like

one of the early American breeds.

One of the first two.

They're little woods and swamp cows.

They're hearty little cows that got
brought over at the original settlers.

They wanted things that were
super durable 'cause they didn't

know what the food supply would

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
across the ocean in the new world.

So it's like, we just want some, we
can release some of the woods and

it'll thrive and we'll definitely
have food and they never modernized.

They've been down on the Gulf Coast
and then just almost went extinct.

A few family lines kept them alive.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Let's see.

Does the Care center run Piney Woods?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
they used to, they

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: They used to.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, okay.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
that herd and buy it, but like it's

just been scattered out at this

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Funnily enough, I basically bought out the

entire Piney Woods market the last, the
first two years of growing the herd here.

Last, last year or this year,
the potty woods field, their

breed day, their field day.

They usually have a, a
sale at the same time.

There wasn't a single
potty Wood cal for sale.

And they're like, where
all the potty woods?

I'm like, sorry.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
ended up having to buy like some

like Corte Corte Macone crosses and
trying to find what I could at kind

of that really hearty unimproved stock

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
is my starting base.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
up on top of that.

Some other like composite bowls.

got some like Micah o Brock, some
like tulle, Marie Grace, some Mic

South Poles, some O Brock, red Angus,
some old line Aberdeen Angus, some

full blood maona, like we've got
a really good little bull group.

Hardy, Hardy Little Bulls with the
right types of principles for Johan

Ziemans type breeding philosophies to
kind of in beefing up the potty woods.

I'm really

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: we.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I started with the potty woods 'cause

it's, it solves so many problems 'cause
there's so hardy and fertile that I've

not had to deal with a lot, kind of
getting the flywheel turning like the

operations and the ecology and all that.

But anyway, so this rancher,
looking at these cows.

He's like, they're
spotted, they're horned.

You're gonna get docked by like
50% of the sail bar and how

are you ever gonna make money?

And then we go and the cows go into their
next grazing section and they leave the

water spot and they all pack in there.

we're running right now during calving
at like 600, 650,000 pounds an acre

doing like four to five moves a day.

And he sees the efficiency
of the grazing and he's like.

You're raising this many cows per acre.

goes, that little calf,
how old's that calf?

And I'm like, yeah, it's about a year old.

So how much does the calf weigh?

I'm like, eh, probably 400, 4 50.

He's like, so you're telling me for every
one of my calves I'm selling, selling

three of those 400 to four 50 pounders?

I said, yep.

He goes, even if you don't go direct to
consumer at the meat, even if you sell

at the sale bar and you're making almost
twice the money I'm making, I'm like, yep.

He's like, okay, I think I get it now.

And, and that's where ultra high
density is truly a game changer.

And there's many reasons behind it.

There's the grazing efficiency of high
utilization, so you're just getting

more use outta the forage, which allows
you to rest the pastures for longer.

The rest allows more root exudate
production and more fertility

accumulation in the soil of just
long-term carbon stores, deeper

roots to develop in the plants.

It allows greater diversity to grow
in with the long rest periods, you end

up getting better plant area density.

You get a higher leaf to stem ratio
and better regrowth because of the

grazing principles and practices.

so got all this stacking happening of just
all these dynamics that are driving your

ability to carry more animals per acre.

so putting those together is started
building this paradigm that we're

trying to fore run this new model to
make ranching profitable where young

people can enter into the industry.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So I have two questions.

First, with the herd share, and we're
jumping a quite a bit back to the

herd share, you mentioned about that
helping young people get started.

Are you viewing that as.

A way for young people to get the
capital to get started, or are you

viewing it as a way they can get
started with a lower amount of capital

for themselves and build some genetics
that'll be functional for 'em that

they could pull out at a later point?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So the herd shares, what I'm

thinking there that when other
young people are able to replicate

the system, they'll build to launch
farms with leverage backing like I

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
it's

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
you'll put a start from zero, like

you'll still need land, you'll
still need some animals of yourself.

You'll need to have

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
where others know you

know what you're doing.

once you have that capacity to build
some trust, 'cause the herd shares

aren't trustless, I always tell the herd
share community like, look like we have

to have relationship with each other.

You have to know me well enough to trust
my competence and to trust my honesty.

You gotta trust

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
accurate records.

You gotta trust, I'm
gonna effectively execute.

On the vision and mission
statement we share.

And that rate limits it to
where you can't have it.

So many backers, like the Dunbar
limit, I would say is like 150 people.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
have more people than like a

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
church size where everybody knows

everybody on a first name basis
because then you don't have enough

relationship to have that level of trust.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
type arrangement, a really beautiful

system because you are, you are
reintegrating producer and consumer to

where you are knitting those relationships
where were no longer fractured and

atomized to where they're now sharing
with me the initial capital cost.

They're sharing with me time horizons
and risk, and they're sharing the

same game and vision I'm sharing.

And we vet really heavily
for our hard share owners.

Like I have

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
eight page marketing packet,

a really long contract.

And I have them read that and I'll
actually interview 'em like, okay,

walk me through understanding.

I need to know you understand it all.

And I want people who are coming
with these long 20 year time horizons

who understand the goals, understand
the challenges, that they understand

the why of why this matters.

Because we're gonna face things
that are difficult together.

We're shit sailing a ship to the new world
and we're gonna run into some storms.

I want people who don't flinch that are
able to weather that with me because

they're in it for the right reasons.

They're actually putting in
the time to understand it.

Right.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
so that collaborative arrangement,

once I'm able to bring in young people
and then intern here and then us

help kind of build the team and then.

Kind of just commission
them and send them out.

Like, okay, we got one in Oklahoma.

Go build one over back in like,
I don't know, like Tennessee.

And then we can leverage our network of
people who are in, say, that new state

where we send the team, we've trained
like, okay, hey there's some young

people, they've built up some net worth
where they're gonna bring this number

of cows with them, help 'em scale, throw
some capital behind them, and you guys

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
farm just like we have here in Oklahoma.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

Okay.

And, and that makes sense.

And, and that's really what I was
thinking with it, but I thought there

is the, the potential that someone
could get in there to help get a,

you know, some of that foundational
breeding stock that'll be adapted to it.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Funnily enough, that's

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: go ahead.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
for some of our herd roers.

Like some

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
food security or asset security

of like an inflation hedge.

Of it are just like ideological
support for what we're doing.

But a non-trivial number of
them are guys that still kind

of have on the golden handcuffs.

They have a really successful career and
they wanna retire and farm one day they

were looking at land because they wanted
to like go ahead and invest and buy land

and get moved in the right direction where
they want to go in like 10, 15, 20 years.

it stopped making sense
'cause it's like, well.

Like, I own the land, but I don't have
time to like manage the land or take care

of the land and like keep like hobos and
like guys squatting on the land off of it.

They're like, this is
just not really sensible.

How about I just buy her
chairs with you guys?

You guys steward the genetics, you
grow the base a little bit for me,

and then when I retire, I'm ready.

I'll just withdraw the breeding
stock and then I'll use that

to launch my own operation.

So we've got a couple guys who are
fairly sizable herd show owners where

that's their big motivation, which is

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
'cause

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
they come visit, they volunteer, they're

learning things here, we're having

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
they're

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
All the mistakes we make, they get

the benefit from, and, we get to
really just enjoy the process together

because they're really vested in what's
happening and they really care about it.

And so it's, it's not just
like financial investors.

I have this whole network of people
who really love this and they have

different diverse backgrounds.

I mean, some are like tradesmen,
some are like lawyers, some

are in the investment world.

And like, I need something.

I just pick up the phone and call
one of our herd share community.

Like, Hey, I need, I
need to brainstorm this.

Help me figure this out.

And it's, social capital is
such a superpower because

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
to give you good counsel or advice

or like, like, Hey, I need to meet
so and so who's in your world?

Can you gimme an introduction?

Like, good lord is that magic, like that
has been probably comparable in the value

add to even the capital they've put in.

that has been such a boost to
not have to do this alone in the

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
sense of

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
breadth of relationship we

have that opens doors for us.

It's just, it's huge.

It's a really big deal.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Or even like just support.

Like we, like, we went through a couple,
remember the winter we had two winters

ago where we had that big ice storm.

It was like negative
15 for like two weeks.

A week before that, one of the
her street owners messaged me.

He's like, Hey, I know you
guys have labor challenges.

Big storm coming.

You guys ready?

I'm like, make it, but it's gonna hurt.

Like we need, we don't
have quite enough people.

like, all right, I'll
be there in three days.

He came and

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
for three weeks to get us through

the storm or like similar things.

We'll face a challenge and like one of
the herd show will be praying about me.

He'll like call me like, Hey, I was
thinking about you this morning.

I felt like it was the
right time to check in.

How you doing?

Like man, I'm discouraged and they'll just

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
and cheer me up.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Like it is awesome having people

who support what you're doing.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh yeah.

That the port structure is so
important for not just in ranching,

but in life and everything you do.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
And the herd share community, by and

large, very intelligent, competent
people in the fields they participate

in who are very ideologically driven
to make the world a better place.

So it just self-selects
towards just incredible

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I'm so grateful for the network

of people we have behind us.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

The,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
It's, it's just been such a privilege

where I've had their support to get
to do the thing I've dreamed about.

I, I

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
about the song by David, where

he talks about the lines have
fallen to me in pleasant places.

I've been given a good inheritance.

Like, that's what it feels like.

I've been equipped to
go serve the commission.

I feel called to in a way that
wouldn't be successful at this, of

even fulfilling the mandate I feel I
have on my life without having these

people who have thrown in to support me.

And it, it's just such a humbling

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
just so steeped in gratitude,

just knowing there's of it, man.

It's just

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
it.

I love it so much.

I go on and on about it.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

Switching gears just a little bit to the
ultra high density grazing, when, when you

throw out that carrying capacity point a
acres to a animal unit, I think you said,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yep.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: That's,
I'm nowhere near that and we've been

managing pastor, and I think my pastors
are better than any of my neighbors

based upon their set stocking.

I think it's a night and day
difference, but I'm not where you are.

And that what's, that's what makes
this ultra high density grazing very

interesting to me when I look at it.

But implementing it, I've gotta
figure out some stuff there.

And we're gonna have some future episodes
that talk more about this, but when you

first got started, were you able to,
was it like ultra high density today

and you weren't doing it yesterday, or
it take you a while to get into that,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yeah.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
your animals into it?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
we've bought in ton of animals

over the last three years.

And in docking animals in the system is
something that hindsight, I would do my

animal selection and how I bring them in.

Totally different now than
how I did it this first time.

I just, I don't know anybody
who's ever grown a ranch this

fast trying to do high density,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I know, like six high density

graziers in the US on perennial
pastures raising adaptive genetics

like it, it is a small world.

And talk about trying to grow
from 13 cows to 504 years.

It's a whole different
bucket of challenges.

it's usually taken about six months to get
'em used to the density at about 18 months

for the animals to fully adapt over.

Like we usually when we're bringing
in animals, we back off to like

150, 200,000 pounds to the acre.

then just watching animal temperament
'cause the shy graziers won't

get in there 'cause they're just
too nervous with the animals.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
boundary and kind of hold 'em there for

a week or two and then we'll tighten
it up and then we'll go in and herd

'em in by hand and back fence 'em.

And then we'll hold 'em there
for a week or two until they stop

trying to squirt outta the section.

And takes a good couple months
to get the animals up to it.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
buy 'em out off of a, off

of a high density grazing
operation like this, they just

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: That'd
be different, right, right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I, I never wanna buy animals again

that come from a system different
than ours 'cause it's such a headache.

Like the animals I bought from
Michael Kinsey over at Reverend Wild

Branch in Georgia, his just jump
right in and flourish from day one.

It's just

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
easier.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: So.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
like that's been one of the challenges

is the animals of scaling in.

The other challenge has been
the skills ultra high density

is an incredible paradigm shift.

just, it's a whole different world
and it's really hard to get your

head around how different it is.

And the way I tend to describe it, it's
like high frequency, high intensity.

it's almost like the difference
between like flying a commercial

airliner versus flying a fighter jet.

It's like the margin of error flying
a fighter jet at those speeds.

little gust of wind, you could just crash
into the mountainside just 'cause you

have to be really on top of your game.

people who try it
historically have failed it.

Jaime's doing a great job overcoming
some of that with his education.

And we run an ultra
density Facebook group.

Me, Matt Robbins Kinzie and Josh
Teak, which we're doing really well.

Getting some success at getting people to
learn it without making the same mistakes.

'cause you have to know
your animals really well.

And the way Johan explains it, he
says that a cow has a dual purpose.

She's the keystone species of
ecological management and the production

of cash flows through providing
meat to the marketplace, right?

so the more intensity you put into your
grazing, the faster it moves forward.

Ecological succession and like
allowing long rest periods of

root exudate production just,
it's just better for the land.

The problem is the genetic adaption
and hardiness of your cattle is

basically the strength of the lever arm.

You can't push your cows harder
than they can genetically handle.

And

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
most modern, like commercial cows,

if I were to push them like I do
with my cows where I'm pushing high

utilization grazing, no shade back,
walking to water, drinking out of

a com, common muddy water hole.

It's high in parasite load.

No anti parasite care, no vaccines.

Like no feed supplements like
grain, like forget breeding.

They might even just die.

Like they just wouldn't,
especially on fescue.

And I always tell people the
magnitude of difference between

a commercial cow and like a South
Pole or a Pharaoh Angus, everybody

knows it's a pretty big difference.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
cal is basically that same magnitude

of difference again, like it's that
different and that much harder on the

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So the mistake most people make is

they push their animals past what their
genetic base is capable of handling.

And so they're chasing the utilization,
seeing what good it's doing for their

land, and they're just not quick enough
to catch the room fill trends, the like

the body condition trends, like most
ranchers and most set stock operations

or even light rotational operations, they
don't really think about body condition

except for maybe like, maybe quarterly.

Like it's not really that often.

us here, I mean we're going down
to the herd and we're Ruben scoring

those cows like 3, 4, 5 times a day.

We're doing body condition reports weekly
or we've got this whole bell curve of a

histogram we build of like what percent of
the herd is it, what body condition score?

We're doing utilization reports
on the pasture grazing sections

like 3, 4, 5 times a day.

It's super observation intensive and
you gotta recognize trends quickly

and know how to adapt quickly.

And so one of the challenges
is the skills of that.

Like I made plenty of mistakes early
where like trying to teach, like I, I've

got a really developed skill at being a
good student, like we're talking about

before, just through just life experience
to where I could pick up things and

fail forward really fast personally.

But then trying to teach like my
operations grazing manager that while

I'm doing most of my business stuff and
he is running the herd day to day, like

we've made some mistakes in our operation.

We're like going into breeding, con
breeding season, a lower body condition

than I wanted and things like that, right?

And the skill barrier mistakes and risk
with high density is definitely a problem.

It's, it's one of those big
challenges that has to be overcome.

that's both education, but
I think it's also tooling.

one of the things we're trying to build
that's like another leg to the stool.

So we've got like the herd
share capital structures.

We're also gonna build land
vehicle structures that are very

similar to herd shares for like
community supported farming.

And then you've got like
the ultra identity grazing.

The genetics piece is a huge problem
because you need the right genetics

cows in order to do this, and
they basically just don't exist.

Matt Robbins is the furthest
along I've out of anybody.

Michael Kinzie is a little bit behind
him, but raising some good stuff and

neither one of them are selling cows
they're growing carry capacity on

their land faster than they can grow

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I think, oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
And so they're just keeping everything.

and there's not that many guys
doing this developing genetics.

There's just not that
many out there to buy.

Like I couldn't have bought ultra
identity genetics even with $10 million.

Like they just don't exist.

So solving, that's another problem
that needs to be provided for

young people wanting to do this.

the other big problem

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: So.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
the skill problem.

And so we're working on building
some tools and some technologies that

actually integrate with education
structures to help overcome that.

I'm working with a technology company.

They're actually gonna be out here next
week to do some feasibility study on our

first tooling approaches to this that is
gonna be gathering observational data like

we're doing on the ground, on like Russ
and pasture utilization, body condition

trends and all these different things.

it's gonna be using like AI and neural
nets and some algorithms and things

we're building where you're gonna
have a dashboard in front of you

of just all these rapid snapshots.

Like before the cows went in the sections
their Russ were this, after they finished

the hard push graze in the section,
their RUS were this utilization was

this, like the body condition trend
from the last two days of has been this.

So it's like your last two days of
management gained or lost weight,

then it's gonna spit back to you where
those data places intersect so you

can understand what your levers are.

Of what you can do to change the outcomes.

So you know how to adapt as a rancher
goal, being helped the rancher to

simply be this guy who's developing
the strategy and then the creative

thinking and critical thinking.

And then the tooling is doing a lot
of the underlying work to give him

what he needs to make good decisions.

part of the problem with high
density is the labor burn because I

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
guy on the ground, like the

observations, making the decisions.

I need a guy moving fences
and installing fences.

Like when I ran the numbers on the
Gallagher Shepherd Towers, just talking

labor, installing fences, moving.

We use auto lifters like
we're use, we're pretty like

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
already per what most people would think.

So just talking like fences, labor
of doing like installation, moving

fences and depreciation of poly reels.

Step in post UTVs.

My operational costs when I go to the
Gallagher system with the virtual collars,

virtual fence collars drop by 80%.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh wow.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
significant.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
because of the man man hour burn.

Like we do 60

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
a week purely installing

and moving fences.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yes.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
It's a lot.

so building a stack of
technology where we have like.

Collars.

We have this data gathering,
software spitting, or hardware and

software spitting back to you like
herd measurements and information

like correlations of data.

It's gonna make ultra high density much
more accessible, especially stacking

that with education materials because
it's like, okay, hey look, software's

telling you this, this is what that means.

a tool shapes the questions you
ask and how you see the world.

And like you don't use a hammer
to try to screw something.

You don't use a screwdriver
to try to hammer something.

Like approach the world based upon what
that tool like is intrinsically made for.

And so there's this po there's this
beneficial feedback loop between

tooling and education that's

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
people ask the right types of questions.

so what we're trying to do is take it
on the chin of, figure it out, all these

different things, and for running it
build the stack to make it possible for

young people to afford to ranch again,
through putting together these investment

structures, the genetics we're building,
learning high density grazing as a

practice, and then tools to help them be
able to execute on that without having

the risk and the mistakes and the skill
level requirements that are currently just

so high to actually better do that well.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Joe, I feel
like we've just scratched the, the

conversation scratched the surface of it.

And I've got notes here for some
other questions to ask, but I think

it's time we transition to Famous
four and talk about some of those

questions in a later episode.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Sounds good to me.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: So for
our famous Ford, there's same four

questions we ask of all of our guests.

And our first question is,
what's your favorite grazing

grass related book or resource?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I'd have to say Mancado unveiled by

Johan like nothing else is close to it.

That's just been such
a pivotal shift for me.

There's other books I'm reading and
enjoying, like I'm reading the one

that Hobbes just released Heard, which
is about relationship between grazing

animals and human history, which is just

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
But the one that shaped me the

most has been Manca and Ved by
Johann to just a large degree.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: You know,
I'd mentioned this earlier, we talked

a little bit about Zeeman's book and,
and my main takeaway was breeding

philosophy, very similar to that Lasseter.

And hearing you talk, I'm thinking
I need to go ahead and go back to

the book and reread it through a
different lens already and I just,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
most people do that.

Most of the

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
that Johann's popular and known

for is his breeding philosophy.

It's like everybody misses
his grazing science.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
starting getting popular with

Jaime, pushing it on Facebook.

And then the Facebook group, we
launched what we're teaching about it.

We had about 4,000 people sign up
for that in the first six months.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
we're starting to see this just

exponential ramp up of people
being curious about the high

density grazing philosophies too.

But it's just really getting started.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

Our second question, what's your
favorite tool for the farm or ranch?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Good question.

I mean, I would probably say my
favorite tool is the one that

doesn't exist yet, which is why
I'm trying to build it like that

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
dashboard of this kind of high

frequency observation type type stuff.

My current active favorite tool
is probably, we have a team chat

channel where we've set up, it's
almost like Slack, but it's on a

self-hosted server here on the ranch.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
And we've got systems in place where all

of our communications are structured.

I guess maybe even the structuring
might be my favorite tool.

'cause that's a tool in itself where we,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
utilization reports, body condition

reports, and it enables learning and
collaboration and also me to supervise

operations without being there.

Once I've got the guys trained to be
pretty consistent in how they're like

measuring animals and giving the reports.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
that has been really powerful because I

spent a lot of my time at the executive
level doing interviews and raising

capital and being able to just pull

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
and be like, what's going on on the ranch?

Okay.

Did he make a good decision?

Okay, let me text him some advice that has
been a game changer for us because it's

allowed me to teach without having to be
just totally in the weeds all the time.

I'd be in there like, right,
looking at the herd with them.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Arthur, our third question.

What would you tell someone?

Just getting started.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
That's a great question.

I, I end up having to answer that question
a lot 'cause a lot of people reach out to

me, young people asking things like this.

think the biggest piece of advice
I'd give would be find somebody who's

actually built an operation that has
faced challenges and interned with them.

Like there's a lot of people

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, we are?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
space, like hosting classes or like

institutes teaching people and having
like, just like these little, like,

I don't know, school room and then
ranch tour times and some of these

classes, like they even like learned
how to build a ranch from zero.

But the person teaching
it had every advantage.

It has never built a ranch from
zero 'cause they inherited a

thousand acres of family land.

It's like

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh, yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
understand

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
to build a ranch from zero buddy.

whatever you're going to face in
the world, take the time to find

the few people who really have
faced similar challenges and spend.

Not just three months, not just six
months, like two or three years with them.

what you'll learn with significant
amounts of time is huge.

You can't pick that

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
weekend class.

Like we, we put four years into go into
college to learn things like business

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Like the same should be true about

what it takes to run a ranch operation.

I mean a ranch, I mean, I would
argue that farming is the keystone

of a local economy and community.

A ranch needs to be capable
of doing everything.

You gotta be capable of understanding
like cash flows and accounting and

like strategic business maneuvering
and how to like OODA loop effectively

and pivot and problem solve.

You need to understand like marketing
and customer service and sales.

You need to understand like legal
stuff and how to get through

legal challenges and battles.

You need to understand politics
because the attacks on smell scale

farms are just going to happen.

You gotta be able to pay political games.

You gotta be able to engage with
the media and win the narrative

battle and the social landscape.

Like we, we got reported for
killing cows last winter where

we graze at high density.

We don't feed hay, we just graze,
stockpile through the winter and

a neighbor happened to drive by.

They saw our cows lounging in
the sun I guess 'cause they were

satisfied in the tight little section.

They just assumed they were dead.

And they called the cops on us.

cops show up, they look at our
animals, they're like, yeah, we don't

know what they were talking about.

so like, seems like it's no big deal.

A couple months later, the Oklahoma
Conservation Commission's having a

board meeting and we've got a grant
with the Conservation Commission

where we're working on doing some
science and gonna proof out some

different things we're studying.

And then Oklahoma Conservation
Commission is gonna leverage that

for doing some education and taking
the program we've done to like

do pasture walks there and host

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
And really excited.

I'm working with Blaine, Stacy
and I freaking love Blaine.

But so the conservation board meeting,
one of the people, one of the locals there

brings up, goes, Hey, so you guys are
working with one of these ranches that

has all these rumors going around the
local community about them killing cattle.

Is it really wise to associate
your reputation with a ranch

who has this reputation?

Yeah, just terrible.

And so just neighbors talking

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I'd expected this, thankfully I knew

being on the cutting edge, doing things
different that like, this is what happens.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Right.

Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I'd already built relationship

with some of the key movers
and shakers and influencers in

these worlds, especially Blaine.

so.

Like with Blaine we have him out
all the time where we're doing

herd walks and checks together.

We're looking at the pasture
and the recovery together.

Like I've done three or four pasture
walks over the last couple years

with like the Oklahoma extension
office of like five or six people.

And like with Blaine, I'm sending him
text messages all the time with our,

like, just our like charts of herd
body condition at certain times of

year, pictures of our room and fill
pictures of animals that are the lower

animals that drive your decisions.

We have to manage based on the
lowest common denominators, like

pic like questions and conversations
about challenges we're facing.

It's like Blaine and I are interacting
all the time so this happens in that

meeting and Blaine stands up and
goes, guys, did any of you go knock

on their door and talk to them?

They're like, well, no, but we
know the guy who knows this.

He's like, these guys would
be happy to talk to you.

can tell you for a fact these guys
keep more data on their animals than

anybody in this room and they know more
about this than any of you guys do.

'cause they're pushing the edge,
having to learn about it, like

this is all completely false.

And that just like Blaine
is really well respected.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
he's like a champion

Brock writer around here.

He came from like the
mainstream agriculture world,

his degrees in range sciences.

He got working with the conservation
commission and carbon programs

and he was one of those rare
people, he's just so self honest.

He realized that the carbon
narrative's false and it's

really about living soil biology.

he really moved all the way
into this regenerative stuff.

But unlike most people, Blaine has
been able to build respect and protect

relationships with all the mainstream
people while his beliefs are on the

cutting edge of the stuff that we
care about in the regenerative space.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
so him standing up of just calling

all that out is just nonsense.

Just silence the room

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
and none of it got any traction.

And

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
need to understand strategy how to build

defensibility around your operation
these kinds of things to happen.

And this is stuff you're not
gonna learn in a classroom.

can't go to business school to learn
how to handle these sorts of things,

how to handle an irate customer
or like just on and on and on.

And so that's where like a young
person going in, slow down.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Spend a significant amount of
time with somebody who's faced

real challenges in a world, very
similar to what you want to be in.

humble yourself and go there
and osmotically soak it all up.

doing that, when I interned with the tech
guy or a lot of the other small businesses

I worked in earlier in my life, it has
been just unquantifiable how valuable

that's become to me today to be able to
understand and do what I'm doing now.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Excellent advice.

Blaine was on episode 1 41.

If a listener hasn't caught
that, they can go catch Blaine's

episode on the Grazing Grass.

Our final question.

How can others find out more
about you and what you're doing?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
So Smoke River Ranch, we've got

a Twitter got a Facebook page.

More actions going through Facebook
than Twitter for Smoke River.

There's also websites,
smoke river ranch.com.

I've got all sorts of podcasts you can
listen to to catch up on what we're up to.

I've been on the, like the Old World
podcast with the American Tribune where

we talked about like ancient agriculture
models in Europe and the agriculture

models in the US and kind of unpacking
a lot of those interesting things.

And from a historical perspective,
there's the working cows where we talked

about she's dilemma and macroeconomics.

I had the one with acres.

The personal Twitter account
I use is untapped growth.

That's gonna be a little more political,
but I talk about a lot of stuff

there too personally that ends up
touching into the agriculture sphere.

but yeah, the following us on Facebook
is probably the best place to get

notifications, but everything that's
coming up and happening, if you wanna

know more about Herd Shares, participate
and support what we're doing, the herd

share page on the website has a little
signup link and then it emails you the

herd share package and then you can
email me back and I'd love to talk with

anybody who wants to know more about
that or be a part of the program with us.

We've got about 50 herd shares
available of mature female cows.

That could be like bringing
in other people to own those

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

Very good.

And I said the final question, actually,
we have room for one more question.

Do you have a question for me?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yeah.

Why are you ranching and what is
your goal and what you're trying

to do in your ranching operation?

Your

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Well,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
term goals, like big goals, 40 year goals?

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: you
know, my, my initial goal is

to pay my bills next month.

That's, that's always
in the, the short term.

It comes from a, I grew up on a farm.

I love this lifestyle.

I love what I'm doing.

Long-term goals.

I'd like to grow our ranch, grow
what we're doing, leave the land

in better shape than we find it.

Raise more energy, dense food in a
way that's more in harmony with nature

and, and the ecosystems and provide,
I mean, my wife drives, I drive my

wife crazy because I'm like, I, I'd
love to have everything from scratch.

I just feel like the way things were
on the farm and the twenties, thirties,

forties is something we should be
going back to, but we've gotta be able

to manage our animals and get there.

'Cause they weren't using high density
grazing there, at least in our area.

But that's the self-sustainable and the
business being financially secure and

being able to grow so that this provides.

Income.

And I would love to see, you know, the
podcast is a merge of my agricultural

passion with my education passion because
I spent over two decades in education

and I really feel those come together.

But how can we help the next generation?

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
It's

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
It is the next question.

Right?

Right.

Because you mentioned this earlier, the
average age, and I consider my age and

I left education sooner than I planned.

I'm getting older faster than I planned.

I, I don't know if that's happened
to anyone else, but it is, and I was

looking, thinking if I do this 10 more
years, am I physically able to what

I've dreamed about doing for decades?

So part of it's a leap of faith
that we can make this work out

here and I know I don't have a big
enough ranch to, to really do it.

We have the podcast and as we talked
earlier, I've got a side business, but

just trying to figure this out so it's
sustainable and then long-term grow

goal, obviously grow help the next
generation be ready and do a great job.

It's all wrapped in there.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
That makes sense.

Yeah.

I can't help but dream of those
Early American accounts from the

pioneers or Lewis and Clark, have you
read any Lewis and Clark's journals

of what they saw going across the

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: N not in
a long time, but it's just amazing.

It's hard to fathom what they saw

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Mm-hmm.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: and how that was.

Yeah, because we don't see that now.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yeah.

Like one of my favorite books
is on Undaunted Courage about

the, just story of Lewis and

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: I,

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
I think it's written by Ambrose.

The bison just wander up to the people.

Like, what are you, I've
never seen a person before,

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: right.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
grass that's like feet tall and so tall.

You can tie it over the
top of a horse's saddle.

Or like the stories of the settlers
migrating across the west and the

herd of bison comes through and.

There's just their oxid or horses
are dying 'cause the bison just ate

everything and it looks like Mordor behind

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047: Oh yeah.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
that's one of the things I kind of

plug about the high density stuff.

I know you're gonna interview Jaime
soon, so like a little like just thought

to kind of transitioned into that.

I would define regenerative agriculture as
the maximization of photosynthetic energy

capture the goal of balancing stocks
of fertility and ecological capital the

resilience and future production with the
flows of productive capital of animals

being sold in the marketplace for food.

And if we want to get back to the maximal
possible point of that, have to follow

the pattern of how it was originally
this edenic fertile basin in the us

which you've got long rest periods with
really massive herds moving at high

density and high intensity hammering
everything where horses and oxen die.

'cause there's nothing left
to eat behind the oxen.

That is the system that developed
the 15 or 20 feet deep top

soils of the great plains.

And if we wanna get back to
that, we have to replicate that.

cal_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Yeah, sounds great.

And that's a great lead up to future
episodes coming here on Grazing Grass.

So you wanna make sure if you're
not subscribed, you subscribed.

But Joe, Joe, really appreciate
you coming on and sharing

today and appreciate your time.

joel--untappedgrowth-_1_07-07-2025_105047:
Absolutely.

It's been a pleasure Cal.

I really appreciate Joel
coming on and sharing today.

My biggest takeaways from today's
episode one is that stocking rate.

He, I believe he said, for this spring
and summer, he's running about 0.8

acres to a animal unit.

That is way greater than what I'm running.

But to be honest or or to be accurate, he
said this spring and summer, this spring

and summer has been atypical for our area.

We've gotten more rain
than we normally get.

So if I was pushing my grazing.

I am not sure what my
stocking rate would be.

I much prefer to see what that averages
out to over time and see how that goes.

But I'm very interested in
ultra high density grazing.

Next week we have Jaime

uh, he's gonna be on to share about Total
Grazing, his version of high density

grazing as well as his whole program.

And then after that we have.

Um, Hobbs on to talk and
maybe a couple more episodes.

I'm hoping to get a couple more people on
just to focus on this high density grazing

because I think it's really interesting.

Like I said, we're going to try
and do a little bit more of it.

And see how it works here.

I really, when I think about grazing
management, I want something that someone

who's working off the farm can do,

and I know a lot of people do who's
doing ultra high density grazing,

they're moving multiple times a day.

So how do you do that
while you're off the farm?

And if you're not going to use some
of those tools to do that, then.

What kind of stocking rate are you
going to get with, or you're going

to do some high density grazing,
you can't crowd 'em quite as much.

I think it's really interesting.

Uh, definitely something to listen
to 'em the next few episodes.

And also I'll be sharing about our
journey and what we're trying to do here.

Uh, as always, if you're a grass
farmer and you'd like to share

your story, reach out to us.

And I say that.

Reach out to us.

My email is cal@grazinggrass.com.

That's CA l@grazinggrass.com.

The website is in kind of some disarray.

I'm doing some rebranding,
grouping some things together and

redoing the website so, so soon
we'll have a better version out.

And I know I didn't,
it wasn't too long ago.

I played with the website then too.

You know, we're glad you're here.

Appreciate it, and look forward
to talking to you next week.