Grazing Grass Podcast sharing Regenerative Ag Stories

Cal: we will get started
with the FAST five.

Our first question, what's your name?

Tom: Tom Otton

Cal: And Tom, what's your farm's name?

Tom: uh, Well, we go by Tango Holsteins.

The farm doesn't actually have a
name, but our sort of business name.

Our, our stud name is Tango Holsteins.

Cal: Oh, very good.

And where are you located?

Tom: We are in Candelo on the far south
coast of New South Wales, Australia.

Cal: Oh, very good.

I'm glad you added all that else in there.

Or we were gonna have to say, our
geographically challenged Northerner

Northerners needed some help on that, but

what species do you graze?

Tom: Uh, We grow a uh, sort
of our more native grass.

That's probably more common to, to
the east coast of Australia's kaiu.

Um, That's a summer in autumn pasture.

And

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: it can be very, very good for us.

A lot of farmers hate it.

A lot of farmers call it
a weed, but um, I love it.

It's just grows Then through winter we
do a lot of pasture cropping with all

different types of cereals uh, rye grass.

And I mean, I'm a, I'm a big user
of multispecies mixes, so I could

rattle off 20 or 30 different
plants I've planted over the years.

Um, But yeah, kaku, you rye grass
and then some sort of cereal with

clover is predominantly what we graze.

Cal: and just FYI for our Northerners
listening, it's the middle of winter for

you while we're, it's stuck in summer.

Tom: Yeah.

Yeah.

It is very cold.

It was minus one, ugh, minus one Celsius.

Another thing I'm gonna have to try
and convert, I should have uh, should

have done some Googling beforehand,
but um, it was below freezing this

morning, which is not, I mean, it's
cold for us, but it's not cold for you,

you guys up north there that really

Cal: yeah.

Yeah.

And what year did you
start grazing animals?

Tom: Uh, I've been a farmer my whole life,
so I grew up on um, 1500 acre beef farm.

And uh, when I left school,
I, we went dairy farming.

We left that farm, we left the
family farm and went dairy farming.

So I've been grazing animals
basically my whole life.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based

livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve

the land animals and our lives.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,

challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from

their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.

Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.

This is the place for you.

Ranchers, farmers and landowners,
if you're looking to optimize your

grazing operation and boost your bottom
line, Noble Research Institute can

help the noble approach to education
pairs their own infield research

with the expertise of ranch managers
and advisors to find practical

solutions to your unique challenges.

In July, Noble's in-person
courses will head into new areas.

Join them in McKenzie, North
Dakota, July 15th through the

16th for Noble Land Essentials.

And in Pendleton, Oregon, July
30th through 31st for Noble

Profitability Essentials.

The expansion doesn't stop there.

Later this year, they'll be
in Winter Garden, Florida

with the Business of Grazing.

And right now, each of these two day
courses is $50 off the regular price.

The pricing is available for a
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of the savings and visit noble.org

to learn more about the
courses and enroll today.

For 10 seconds about
the farm, July is here.

I would say finally here, but
man, it's happened quickly.

In the first six months of the year,
we've had a tremendous amount of rain.

I wanna say the second highest,
maybe the third highest.

I know 1973 was on the list.

2019 was on the list in 2025.

I wanna say it was second.

A lot of rain.

Like 32 inches worth.

And normally we get about 44, so you can
see where we are this early in the year.

Because of that, we've kind of
changed our plans up a little bit.

We had no intentions of belling any hay.

However, with the ample rain
we've had this year, uh,

we've got plenty of grass and.

We're thinking we're gonna go ahead
and use the opportunity to bell some

hay, put it in the barn so we have it.

Um, and next year we'll get
back to not bailing any hay for

10 seconds about the podcast.

I think I told you last week.

Don't use grazing grass resources.com.

It's not working.

Well, I tested it last
Wednesday and it's working.

I thought I had the settings right,
but it wasn't showing up right.

But I did talk to a lady in Texas
and she went to the Grazing Grass

Resources to look for a mentor near her.

And I know the Grazing Grass resources
are young, but if you're interested

in being a mentor, if you're a
consultant, you should be listed there.

She went there looking and we do not have
anyone from her area in Texas listed.

So I told her I'd put it out there.

Let you all go to grazing
grass resources.com

and put your listing there or list
your farm that way if someone's

looking for a regenerative farm
in their area, they can find it.

I have my farm listed there and.

Maybe we can help each other build a, a
tool that's beneficial to the community.

With that said, once you finish
listening, go make your account

and get your listing there.

And let's talk to Tom.

I.

Cal: Growing up on a beef farm.

What made you switch to dairy cows?

Tom: Well, I'm not sure whether
the northern hemisphere knows

this, but Australia went through a
horrible drought from 2000 to 2010.

Um, The millennial drought, I guess
they'd Um, There was horrible water.

Lot of farms closed
down because of it, and.

I finished school in 2010 and the
farm was, it was in the recovery

stage of that drought, but it was
still doing it very, very tough.

And I, my then girlfriend, now wife
and I were working on the family

farm and realized that there was no
opportunity there for Um, We were

living there and sort of working
on it, but not really getting paid.

And um, I wanted, I wanted to stay
there and, and do lots of things there,

but it was pretty obvious that there
was no money for us to stay there.

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: um, I put a few feelers out
and a local dairy farmer uh, lives

now lives very close to us at the
time, was maybe an hour away from us.

Um, He said, come and work for me and.

Get to know the dairy
industry a little bit.

And I thought this was
a fantastic opportunity.

The job come over the house and uh,
at the time it was pretty well paid.

And so we, we jumped into dairy
farming and that was in 2012?

2011.

2012.

And we've been milking cows ever since.

Cal: Does she have a history in grazing

animals?

Tom: She, her parents have a hobby farm.

Uh, We had horses when I was growing
up, we had show jumping horses and

in a pretty big, in a pretty big way
when I was younger and we both met

through with horses and yeah, we got.

Well, yeah, to skip over a few years, 2015
we got married and we decided to leave

the farm we were working for and, and
start leasing or share farming share farm.

I'm not sure if you know what share
farming is, but we started share farming

in 20 uh, very early 2016, January, 2016.

Yep.

Cal: Oh, very good.

With, with that first dairy,
were they practicing what we

would consider reti practices?

Tom: Yeah.

So this is, this is what I've been
thinking about for a long time now,

that, so the word regenerative, I'll
go into a bit of a deep dive here.

The word regenerative has only really
come about for me in the last four or

five years, and I actually employed
a bloke that said regenerative.

And it was the first time
that I've heard that word.

And when I started looking into it, I
thought, we've been doing regenerative

practices forever without knowing that
we're doing regenerative practices.

We do it because I.

We think it's more profitable.

Well, it is, you know, we
know it is more profitable.

I dunno whether that's just
a uh, a Southern Hemisphere

Australia and New Zealand thing.

But you look at all the farmers in
New Zealand, all the dairy farmers in

New Zealand, and, and they're doing
multiple shifts a day and they're

using all sorts of organic composts
and they're doing all sorts of cool

regenerative practices, but they don't
know that they're regenerative farmers.

Um, So yeah, it's, it's interesting when
I started going down this rabbit hole

of regenerative farming and, and found
people like you and, and John Kemp and

Gabe Brown and um, those sorts of guys,
and then I went, you know, we've, we've

been doing this forever, but we didn't
really know that we were doing it.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Cal: You, you know, I can remember my
first exposure to the word regenerative

and that's because Greg Judy started
his YouTube channel and he put on the

regenerative g grazier Greg, Judy.

And I'm like, what's regenerative grazing?

And you know, I'm like, oh,
that's what I've been trying

to do or attempting to do for

decades.

Tom: just because it's more
profitable and it grows more grass.

We didn't know that we were doing this
cool, trendy, regenerative practices.

We just knew that it was more profitable.

Cal: Right?

I was trying to lower cost, make more

money.

Tom: that's right.

Yeah.

Cal: Yeah.

And, and I've always been fascinated
by the New Zealand dairy industry

because I grew up on a dairy.

And for us, we were, I hate
to use the word grazing.

Our cows were own pasture.

But we had two pastures a day,
pastor and pasture And if you don't

understand what those were during
the day, they went to the day pasture

And during the night, they went to the
night pasture And that's, that's the way

my, my grandparents did their cattle,
you know, and we fed a concentrate

as they came through the dairy barn.

And we just, when I went to
college, I worked on a dairy and

they were completely confined.

So, you know, I hate to use the word
grazing, but they were on pasture

a little bit, but not ative at all.

Tom: so we're um, so we're
doing minimum two shifts a day.

When we have time, we
do four shifts a day.

Um, But we're, we're sort of
sitting at around 150,000 pounds

per acre to put it into American
And yeah, it's not highly dense.

That's on uh, two shifts a day.

But when we go more density, when
when we've got the grass to go more

dense, then we'll push it up to sort
of three, 400,000 pounds per acre.

Cal: Oh yeah.

At what point did you start
looking at your density per acre?

Tom: Uh, We sort of always um, I'm
not sure I ever started doing it.

Um, Yeah, I've been doing it forever.

Really?

Cal: and with your, your two
shifts up to four shifts, are you?

Are you going out there
running a new break for

him or do you have any
automation to go with

it?

Tom: No, no.

We're doing, we're doing it very manually
with uh, polywire and, and It sucks.

But yeah, it's the same thing.

We've been doing and we know that it
grows more grass by doing it this way.

The virtual fencing thing, we
could go down that rabbit hole.

It's incredible.

I love, I love the idea of it.

It's only just become legal where
we live in the last two months and

I dunno, of anyone around us that's
even thinking about putting it in.

But I think that it's the future.

I think for, especially for my
operation, it's exactly what I need.

Cal: Now, you mentioned something
there, you said just became legal there.

Why was it illegal?

Tom: So is it fully legal in America?

I, I assume there would be lots
of states that would, where it's

still, there's still some states
in Australia where it's illegal.

South Australia and Victoria, I think.

Cal: I didn't even think about there being
any regulations to keep you from doing it.

Tom: Yeah.

Yeah.

Cal: my mind, and, and
I haven't dove into it.

I mean, I've talked to people on the
podcast that's doing it, but it never

crossed my mind that it might be illegal

Tom: Yeah, well, the animal activists
love to keep that sort of thing illegal.

But yeah, I think it was in, maybe
May, may this year it become legal.

I actually did a interview with
a local radio station about it

about the benefits for local dairy
farmers using virtual fencing.

Cal: Oh, okay.

So it's, it's illegal due
to animal welfare concerns.

Tom: And that was the, during the
interview that the interviewer

asked me, are you worried?

You know, many times he was pushing
me almost to say, yes, I'm worried

about the animal welfare issues.

But no, it's not.

It's not.

If you know any people with
virtual fencing, there's, there's

no animal welfare issues with it.

Cal: Is that because of the
potential shock the cow gets,?

Tom: It's because of the shock.

Yeah.

We've got collars on cows at the moment.

We've got the data.

Mars collars, heat detection and, and
rumen rumination activity collars.

We've got them on.

We've had them on for one eight months.

Cal: Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

So for the states, you know, the
state most likely to have some kind of

regulation on that would be California.

Of course there's some other
states, but California seems to

be the first for animal welfare.

And I don't know anything like that here.

I wonder how it is in Europe because
they're, they're pretty concerned

about a animal welfare there as well.

Tom: I'm not sure it

Cal: Not, not that we
aren't, but you know.

Tom: yeah.

The, it's just an overreaction,
you know, the, the shock that

they get is so small, you know?

That's just silly, even to think
that it's an animal welfare issue.

Cal: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So does that have the potential, and
this is more a question for listeners,

is electric fence legal everywhere
or is that a problem for some

Tom: Well, that's what I've often
wondered that too, because, you know,

you're, you're always trying to get
your fence to run at 10,000 volts and,

Cal: Right.

Tom: and we're putting a collar on a cow
and I, I think it's half a volt or 0.3

of a vol or something.

So Yeah.

Why haven't energizers been made illegal
if colors have been made illegal?

Yeah, I dunno.

Cal: Years and years ago, actually, if you
go to my, my old YouTube channel, I say

my old one for the farm, I haven't updated
it in years, but I got a shock collar

for one of my livestock guardian ducks.

She just didn't wanna
stay in with the sheep.

And it was one, I had to run a wire
around the pasture where I had 'em.

So I had 'em in a small pasture and
I was trying, and I thought, you

know, for good YouTube tv I might
as well get shocked by this thing.

And of course, so I did that
and I, I dropped it because I

didn't like getting shocked.

But I would rather get
shocked by that than my

electric fence when it's running pretty.

'cause it makes my funny bone hurt.

And when my funny bone hurts, I know
my electric fence is in good shape.

Nothing's gonna bother it.

So with your cows and talking about
let's just talk about your cows.

What breed are you milking?

Have you always been that breed?

Tom: So we milk Holsteins.

We have got a few jerseys maybe a dozen.

So we milk around 220 Holsteins, and
then we've got about 10 or 12 jerseys.

My wife loves jerseys.

My kids love jerseys.

I,

Cal: Everyone loves

Tom: yeah, I think they're cute.

They are, they are.

I mean, I, I admit it.

They're cute.

But now when we started off,
we bought a very mixed herd.

So in 20, when we bought our first
herd in 2016 we pretty much just

bought the cheapest cows we could find.

And then I knew that by value
adding to the herd, I had to breed

the herd to a more Holstein herd.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's the
same everywhere, but here our whole

state cows, just commercial grade,
whole state cows worth double the

price of a, of a decent jersey.

Even though they might be exactly
the same, profitable, just the,

the resale value on a Holstein cow
compared to a Jersey cow is double.

So, so I knew that the banks, you know,
I'd look better to a bank if I had

200 Holsteins compared to 200 jerseys.

It was just pretty common
sense to go that way.

Not that I really, I don't really
like one breed over another.

That was just the way we went.

Cal: Are you AI in all your cows?

Tom: So we used mostly US
genetics, north American genetics.

We, we put an emphasis on type
and we don't want sort of, we

don't want the big show cows.

They've still gotta fit into our grazing
system and they do a lot of walking.

So they've gotta be medium stature
and they've gotta have good legs and

good ERs and wide chest wide muzzles.

I.

Yeah, we put a lot, a lot of emphasis
on confirmation in our Holstein cow

and, and make sure we get it right.

We don't want, we don't want a bad
line of heifers that all come in.

They're all narrow chested and they're
all too tall and they break down.

They don't go in calf.

Yeah.

So we put a lot of effort into that.

Cal: Yeah.

Oh, continuing on that, are
you using sex semen or are you

just using conventional semen?

Tom: Yeah.

So one of the things one of the
sustainable things that we tried

to do when we first started farming
was to go down the sex semen route.

I would say we're one of the very early
adopters of sex semen in Australia.

So we use sex se on our best
cows and, and beef on our.

Worst cows, I guess they bottom half cows.

We haven't actually used a conventional
Holstein bull or a conventional dairy

bull since 2017, and I would say we
are one of the, the longest, if not the

longest, in Australia for, for never,
for not using any conventional semen.

Cal: Oh yes.

What beef breeds are you
crossing on your dairy cows?

Tom: we try to use Angus a lot
just 'cause of the resale value.

But the Angus straws, I'm not sure
if they are where you are, but Angus

Siemens straws have gone through
the roof the last couple of years.

So we actually found some cheap now I
wanna get this wrong limb, flex limb.

Limb flex

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: which is a Angus liers in, I think.

Cal: Yes.

Tom: So we, we are using
that at the moment.

We'll see.

See how that goes.

I.

Cal: Years ago when we dared neighbor had
limousine and then we, we had a few beef

cows and stuff, but the great thing was
he would give me old limousine semen he

didn't wanna use anymore 'cause they were
just trying to keep up with the times.

It worked out really well I wanna talk
about your infrastructure a little bit,

but before we go back and talk about
that, you're breeding some of your cows

to beef calves, I assume you're bottle
feeding them and selling them at how big?

Tom: Sort of six to 12 months.

It depends a bit depends
on the market a bit.

But we get 'em to past we stage
and, and until they're, there's

a lot of inner areas, a lot of I
wouldn't call 'em hobby farmers.

They're better than hobby farmers,
but they're people that as soon

as it gets dry, they don't really
care for their animals that much.

So they, or, or they don't understand.

It's not that they don't care.

They, they don't understand
that cattle need to be fed.

So we try and get 'em big enough for
that market, for those people that have

got maybe 50 acres or a hundred acres.

So they're bigger than a hobby
farmer, but they're not a, a full-time

farmer that would understand.

And so we try and get 'em big enough
so that if it does get dry, because

where we are, we're we are the epitome
of feast and famine in our area.

We have very low rainfall, but we can
get 80% of our rainfall in a week.

And so people will be
buying, buying, buying.

They've got lots of grass, but
then inevitably we'll get a

severe drought within a couple
of months of that big flood.

Cal: Yeah.

I, I like to say in May everyone
hears a great grass manager.

Tom: that's, that's

Cal: when it dries off, we, we
really see how good people are.

So how much rain do you all get each year?

Tom: So where we are, we're,
we're in the Bega Valley.

If you look up on a map, the Bega
Valley is a beautiful part of Australia.

I think, I think it's I'm
definitely not biased at, at all.

I think it's the most
beautiful part in the world.

We're on the western edge of
the Bega Valley, and so we have

about a 550 mill rainfall, which
helped me out 20, 20 inches.

20 10, yeah, 20 inches.

I think rainfall.

Cal: Or

Boy, I was gonna let Google help
me and I typed the wrong deal

and it thought I meant miles.

Why is it

Tom: I think it's, I think
it's, well it's 25 mils an inch.

10 10 inches.

250, 20 inches is 500.

So let's say 22 inch rainfall.

Cal: Yeah.

About about 20 inches of rain.

Yeah.

Tom: And we get very hard.

Winter's cold, not snow.

We don't, we don't get snow.

We get snow maybe an hour from
us or less than an hour from us

Cal: okay.

Tom: But we get very hard frosts like the
ground and everything will just be frozen

for three or four hours in the morning.

And we'll get that nearly
every day through winter.

And so, so yeah,

Cal: Do you get, do you have
periods of time where you guys

are below freezing for a week or

Tom: nah, no, our, our midday
temperatures even, even, it might

get to minus five, which again, I'm
talking Celsius, I dunno what that

is in Fahrenheit, minus five Celsius.

Our midday temperatures will get

Cal: What is that?

10, 15 degrees, something

Tom: yeah.

So our midday temperatures will
get to sort of 15 to 20 degrees,

which is, you know, a nice,

Cal: Oh, okay.

So pretty

mild.

Tom: Yeah.

Cal: Yeah.

And you mentioned your rainfall
has the potential to come in a

very condensed time of the year.

When do you typically get rain?

Tom: whenever, where it's autumn, autumn
is probably the most reliable time of

year, which is our February, march, well
I'll say February, February, March, April

is our, typically our autumn or your
fall, which is I guess your springtime.

But that, that's most common
time to be getting rain then.

But we could get 400 mils in July and
then get 150 mils for the rest of the.

11 months.

That's, it's very common.

We get, it's called an East Coast low,
and it's just a low forming off the

east coast of Australia around Sydney.

And we're, we're about
five hours south of Sydney.

And it'll sort of follow the coast down
of Australia and then just dump it on us.

And, and I'm not exaggerating.

We'll, we'll get 400 meals in two
days and then, and then we'll get

four meals for the next five months.

It's quite extreme.

Cal: yeah, with those extremes,
that, that requires some creative

management, I would think.

With grazing your animals,

Tom: Yeah.

Cal: are you, when you get a lot of
that rain, are you worried about pugging

in your pastures or do you do anything
different with your cows during that time?

Tom: no, not really.

We don't have the sort of soils that
pug, well, when we, we do, but what,

what I've been trying to do for well
forever is trying to build soils

and build pasture mixers to hold
that water in the soil for longer.

I, I've got a funny saying, it's called
bipolar farming, that we, we say a

lot around here, bipolar farming.

It's the highs and lows of farming
where you know, we can be going

really, really, really good this week,
and then next week it's terrible.

And then the week after it's really
good, the next week it's terrible.

So I've been trying to farm with a
simple approach, whereas the, the

extremes, the highs and lows, the
bipolar farming isn't so extreme.

We're, we're trying to build soils to
hold moisture in soil for longer and

trying to grow different pasture mixes
that will l last longer through those

more extreme dry periods that we get.

Cal: so with your pasture mixes,
are you broadcasting those in or No.

Tilling them

Tom: No till.

We've got

a, a Duncan Triple disc which again, very
different to Northern Hemisphere farmers.

I would say 80 to 90% of farmers in
the southern areas of Australia are

using no till or minable till no-till.

So it's just a disc, a disc seater,
like I assume they're popular in, in

America, like a, a double disc or a
triple disc seater, just runs it straight

sort of puts the seed two inches under
the ground and then a press wheel

goes over the top of it and closes
the, the grass over the top of it.

So we'll do cover crops as well as.

Minimal till or, or zero till.

I guess it's zero till.

I don't really know the
difference, but yeah, we, well

have, I've never used a plow.

I don't own a plow.

I have no intentions of using a plow.

I think a plow is a good garden ornament.

And that's about it.

Cal: yeah.

Well, I'd love to do a look out my window.

The rain finally hit here.

I'd love to have a pasture
drill, but I'm not that rich yet.

Those, those things are

Tom: They are, yeah.

This one we bought probably 10 years
ago for 20,000, and I think if I

sold it now 10 years old or, well,
it was probably 20 years old when I

bought it, so now it's 30 years old.

I think it's worth about 50,000.

So

Cal: Oh,

Tom: it's crazy.

Cal: I, I had a neighbor
live up the road from me.

He passed away, but before he
had, he purchased a no-till or

pasture drill that caught on fire,

Tom: Yeah,

Cal: and he was very mechanically inclined
and really good welder and fabricator,

and he went through that thing and
fixed it all up at his estate sale.

I thought, oh, maybe we can get our
hands on a pasture drill no-till drill,

so we could go a few thousand for it.

It went for like 23 or 26,000,
so it didn't come home with me.

Tom: Yeah, it sounds similar to here.

Cal: Yeah.

But, but he did a great
job of refurbishing that.

I just need to look for a, a pasture
drill that's caught on fire, except I

don't have his talent to rebuild it.

Tom: I've often thought about broadcasting
and I'm not brave enough to do it.

Plus we own the drill, so, but I, I'd love
to, I'd love to broadcast and just nail

the time in, you know, during a sort of a,
a rainy period and just see what happens.

But I haven't been brave
enough to try it yet.

Cal: Oh yeah.

I, we broadcast some because we
don't have a, a no-till drill.

And I have to say in defense
of the government, there is one

at our county extension office.

We just have to rent it from
'em and get it out here.

And we've not done that, but
we broadcast from time to time.

And I, and I have to say, sometimes
I think I'm smart when I broadcast

and sometimes I think I am one of
the dumbest people around because

it, I don't see any results from it.

Tom: I think the timing is
crucial, even with a drill.

I think the timing of of getting seed
in the ground is, is very important.

Cal: With your, your drill, what
kind of grasses are you putting in?

You mix?

You mentioned some mixes

Tom: Give me one second.

I'll, I'll bring up what
I put in this year because

Cal: Oh, okay.

Tom: So we.

Cal: And also what's
your timing on that, Tom?

Are you, I think you mentioned
cereal grains earlier.

So is that a cool season crop for you?

So you're putting it

Tom: So it's all,

Cal: in

Tom: all cool season.

Okay, you ready?

So this, this is the mix we
did on about say 220 acres

of ground we sewed this year.

So we did a cereal, which is Sayer oats.

We put Concord two, which is a rye grass.

We'd put some prairie grass chicory.

We did a leafy turnip.

We did three types of,
no, two types of clovers.

I'm not actually sure what that is.

And there's another thing that
I'm not sure what that is.

And then a, a type of plantain.

So,

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: yeah.

And then we also broadcast
also I did broadcast.

I broadcasted, loosen on top of
that with a type of fertilizer.

Afterwards.

Yeah.

Cal: Oh yeah.

That worked pretty well for you.

I,

Tom: The multi-species mixes Yeah.

Have worked really well for us.

Yep.

Cal: yeah.

Are you planning annuals there?

Is that better milk production than
your grasses you already have in place?

Tom: Yeah.

Although, because we have such a, such
a good ous, summer native grass base,

we plant annuals through the winter,
and then the, the native summer grasses

go dormant through winter, and then by
about November, December when the, the

annuals, the winter annuals are dying off
the summer perennials, I guess you'd call

'em, start growing again, just naturally.

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: yeah, we, we just do that year after
year, so about March every year we try

and sew the whole farm to winter annuals.

Then by November the winter annuals
are dying off and the, the summer

annuals, or summer pastures are growing.

And we go into that.

Cal: Are you feeding any hay
or hay leads or silage to your

Tom: Yeah, we do it.

We are pretty conventional in the
way we grow silage and, and hay.

What, what a silage.

What a bale.

Silage.

Silage.

We have done pits in the past when
we've had a really good spring.

But yeah, most, mostly just bale silage
and, and through winter, like at the

moment, we'll feed silage out with the
cows in the, in the paddock and just

when we're a little bit short on grass.

But yeah, I, I would like to get to the
point where I'm not so reliant on silage,

but it's a bit like a few other things.

I'm just not quite brave
enough to, to do that just yet.

Cal: You know, we're all on this journey
and there's things we have to do along the

journey we'd like to not do, but you're
just not quite far enough along yet to go

there.

Yeah, just keep working towards it.

Let's talk about your infrastructure
a little bit for your dairy.

So what kind of barn do you have?

Tom: We don't have a barn.

We, we have a, we have a milking shed.

We call it a dairy which is where the

Cal: Oh, okay.

Tom: But yeah, we, we
never put cows inside.

The cows are outside 365 days a year.

24 hours a day.

We have a, a dairy, it's
a little tenic side.

Dairy takes us about three
hours to milk, 220 cows.

We milk them twice a day, 5:00 AM
and 3:00 PM it's a, yeah, it's a

very small, we call it a dairy, but
I think you call it like a parlor or

milking parlor or something like that.

Yeah.

Cal: Yeah.

Dairy Barn parlor.

Milk barn.

Yeah.

Tom: Yeah, so,

Cal: So tend to the side.

Are you using swing, I
assume rather than low line.

Tom: So we're double up.

So we have 10 cups on each side.

We can milk 20 cows at

Cal: Oh, okay.

Yeah, we were.

W we just had a double four
herring bone when we were milking.

I, I dreamed of a bigger
barn, but we never got there.

Tom: Yeah.

Well, this started as a six and then it
went to an eight, and now it's at a 10.

And I'm, yeah, I have, I'm very excited
for the day we pull this one down

and just build something else because
it's, I, I spend more time in that

parlor than I do at home, I think.

Cal: I, I know when we, when we got
started and was daring with my uncle and

grandparents they were milking a lot of
cows through a old double four swing.

And it was, they were milking
like five and six hours.

It was, it was a crazy ti period of time
there trying to grow the herd and figure

out what to do with your, with your double
10 are, do you have automatic takeoffs

and are you pretty computerized in the

Tom: I would say so.

I wouldn't, I mean there, there's some
very flash, fancy parlors in Australia

because, you know, people don't like to
spend more than sort of an hour in there.

We've got too much to do.

So there is some very fancy ones.

Ours is, ours is a very, very old
parlor with some lipstick on it.

That's about it.

Cal: Yeah.

Well, you, you gotta be careful.

Those parlors can get really nice
and really expensive and you're,

you're like, they can do what?

Tom: They're, yeah.

Very expensive.

It's incredible the price of
a, just to build a new dairy.

Here we are looking at millions
and which is why I've put up with

our little dairy for so long.

Cal: Just on, on the subject
of milking, have you ever

thought about a robot milker?

Is that popular?

Tom: It, it's becoming more popular.

I'm not against the idea.

And if, if, and when we decide to build
a new parlor, we'll be looking at robots.

Definitely.

I'm not sure it will happen.

I, I don't know.

Yeah.

It, it'll be an interesting
case study anyway for if and

when we go down that path.

Cal: Yeah.

I, I think they're very interesting
and I've seen some, some discussion

about them on grazing dairies, and I
know there's a dairy not too far from

me with a robot, like an hour away,
and I really want to go visit it.

I haven't convinced my wife that I
can just stop in and talk to 'em, but.

Tom: I'm sure they love it.

There's one near me, they milk 400 cows.

They've got six robots.

But they, they do have a feed
pad, a concrete feed pad.

So the cows are yeah, they, they go
on grass a bit, but, but not a lot.

If I was to do it, I'd try and have the
cows on grass sort of 95% of the time.

So yeah, I'm not sure how that works.

I know there's a lot of farms in New
Zealand and Tasmania that have, that

have robots and do what I'm trying to do.

So yeah, I'd go and look at them
whenever we go down that path.

Cal: Yeah.

And, and I think with virtual
fencing, the ability to, to auto

move those cows and it, it, it'll
be interesting where all that

Tom: You're talking my language

now.

I'm, I'm excited about that.

Cal: yeah.

Not, probably not something I ever have to
worry about, but man, I, I could just I.

They can bring the cows in, you can
have your robots going and you're

there providing tech support.

Tom: Yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

Power's a power's a bit of an issue.

I'm not sure.

Our power in Australia has gone
through the roof in the last

five years pretty much since

Cal: Oh, yes,

Tom: and robots are very heavy on power.

So I'm not sure whether there's
a more sustainable way with solar

panels or something like that
to, to ease the load of power.

But that's probably one
issue with the robots.

Cal: Oh yeah, of course.

You wait another decade.

It'll be amazing what they can do.

And

Tom: Yeah.

Cal: on both ends of that, generating the
power as well as what the robot requires.

Of course, if you'd like me, I'm
gonna buy a robot in 10 years.

That's 20 years old, so it's,
it's already out there working

with your.

Your infrastructure, get cows out to
where you need to graze, and they're

coming back to that barn twice a day.

How have you done your infrastructure,
so that works well for you?

Tom: We've, we've got laneways,
so we've got central laneways

all over the farm sort of thing.

They're, they're not great.

They're, they're, they're
actually very bad laneways.

But I'm trying to make them better
without spending too much money, I guess.

Probably one interesting part of our farm
is that we're divided by a very big road.

So our cows actually go across the road.

We go over the road.

Once a day or, or twice a day.

We go across the road.

We are looking at putting in un
underpass at the moment, but damn, those

things are expensive too, so, yeah.

So yeah, our, our road is our bit of an
obstacle to our central Laneway, I guess.

I'd like to, yeah, I'd, I'd like to
be a lot more efficient in the way

our cows walk to and from paddocks.

But the road is a bit
of an obstacle there.

Cal: Oh yeah.

For your, your lanes, do you have
anything down on the surface of the

lanes or are they just where you
made the lanes and they've been your

Tom: Yeah.

Yeah.

We, because of our, you know, we, we
don't have those really long wet winters

like a lot of Southern Australia does.

Our winters are actually pretty
dry and cold, so our layaways are.

They hold up very well.

They might get a bit messy for
maybe two weeks when we get a

massive downpour of rain, but after
two weeks they're, they're fine.

Again,

Cal: Oh yeah.

Are your lanes are they just
like high tensile wire, single

wire, or are they more elaborate?

Tom: bit of a mixture,
depends where they are.

If, if it's only where the herd
will walk, then they're just

single wire electric fences.

If they're sort of towards the back
of the farm where there's dry cows and

heifers and things, then we have maybe
three barbs and one electric wire.

trying to, trying to keep bulls away
from the herd is always an issue, so we

have to have sort of half decent fences
to stop the bulls getting in the herd.

Cal: Oh yeah.

What's your watering situation?

Tom: So we have a really beautiful
river called the Tenter Welo River.

I won't spell it for you 'cause I
don't even know how to spell it.

Cal: Yeah.

Tom: Then we, yeah, we pump
to a water tank and then

gravity feed to water troughs.

The cows drink outta the river a lot.

And we also have a, a couple of dams.

I don't know if you if dams are popular
there, but everyone has dams around

here, sort of we're, we're fairly hilly
topography, so that's very easy to put

in a dam and, and cows drink from it.

Cal: Oh, yes.

So, so basically a pond.

But what do, do you have a
a different word for that?

Tom: A, a pond like a, a dams
just like an excavated hole in the

ground at the bottom of a hill.

Cal: Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So not as big as what we
would consider a pond.

Tom: It might be one or two megs.

I don't know what

Cal: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

When, when do you normally keve your cows?

Are you a year round keever,
or do you keve a couple times

a year, or you're seasonal?

Tom: We, we carve once a year.

I wouldn't say seasonal because
we don't really have seasons.

We're quite unique in that we can
be cut in silage in the middle of

winter, in the middle of summer.

Anytime.

Anytime it rains, pretty much we
can be, we can have the best time

of the, you know, the best grass of
the year at any time of the year.

But from a management's perspective,
we carve once a year, we carve in our,

in our autumn or our fall, which is
we start on the 1st of March through

till, well, I, I say June, but I've
actually still got cows carving at the

moment just 'cause we got a bit slack.

But so 1st of March till about
mid-June is when I ideally want

to have all the cows in the dairy.

Cal: So, so they're freshening and
then they're going to be grazing those

annuals and other Forbes you planted.

So they're gonna be on that nice
high plane of nutrition when

they're earlier in their lactation.

Tom: Yeah, so I try and have the
whole herd dry when I'm planting.

So February, march is when I'm planting.

Then I try and have the majority
of the herd dry during that period.

And then by the time they're in peak milk
production, they're on the new grass,

they're on the new multi-species mixes.

And then through sort of April,
may, June, we can really get

a lot of meal care that cows.

Cal: Oh yeah.

How does that work from a
selling your milk perspective?

I assume you, you have a bulk tank,
come take it to a cooperative or a

Tom: Yeah.

Cal: processing plant.

Tom: So Be Cheese.

I don't know.

I dunno if Be Cheese is popular,
the, the name brand, but in Australia

Be Cheese or, or Bega Foods I think
they're called now is a huge I'd

call them a multinational maybe, I
dunno, a huge company in Australia.

Anyway all started from a little
tiny cheese co-op in Bega, which

is about half an hour from me.

In 1899, they started bega cheese and all
the local dairy farmers set their milk.

There.

And then Bega cheese has just grown
and grown and grown and grown.

I think they're worth a $4 billion
company or something at the moment.

Cal: Oh yes.

Tom: so all our milk goes to Bega Cheese.

We only have one cooperative in our area,
so we, well, it's not a co-op anymore,

it's a publicly listed company, but we
only have one processor in our area.

So all our milk goes to Bega cheese.

We produce around four
or 5,000 liters a day.

Our milk tanker comes.

Picks up.

We have a bulk tanker, a vat we call it.

A milk tanker comes and picks it up every
day and, and takes it back to the bigger

cheese factory and turns it into cheese.

Cal: Is, you know, growing up on dairy,
we milked every day of the year and

we had cows ke year round so that we
could be shipping milky year round.

I know in New Zealand
it's that very seasonal.

All your cows are dry,
they're all freshening.

What's the main way in Australia?

Do they follow more of that New
Zealand type where most people have

time off because cows are dry or are
there some that's milking year round?

Tom: I would say the, the most
popular way of carving cows would

be two batches, a batch in the
Otto and a batch in the spring.

Which is what we were about
only a few years ago before

we decided to go to one batch.

There is still a lot of farms that
carve year round and they'll have cows

carve in every single day of the year.

It's still fairly popular, but
the New Zealand system, I would

say is becoming less and less.

I, I would say 1% of Australian
dairy farmers actually stop

milking through winter, like the

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: New Zealand system.

Yeah, it's becoming a lot less and
less, and that's just because our

winters here in Australia, well,
they're not nearly as hard as they are

in New Zealand, so we can actually,

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: we can actually grow
grass and we can actually keep

cows on grass through winter.

Whereas in New Zealand, trying to
milk cows in winter is just insane.

And I dunno how they do it.

It's just raining every single day of
the year and yeah, it'll be impossible.

So.

Cal: Well, I, I know when we dar it,
I always looked at that and thought.

How great would that be to turn
your cows dry for a couple months

before you kick back in gear?

Tom: Yeah, I, I'd like to get to that
eventually with the way we are doing it.

But yeah, we, we, we'll
probably never get there.

We've still got bills to pay.

It's very hard to sort of just shut
down the dairy and say, I'm not

gonna have any income for two months.

It's nearly impossible.

We'll, we'll get down to maybe 60
milking cows at our lowest point.

Maybe 50 milking cows.

Cal: Yeah.

With your, your heifers and your
dry cows, are they getting moved

as often as you move your milk

Tom: No, I, I'd love to do it.

It's just too hard.

So we, we had dry land paddocks, so, so
the milking platform is all irrigated.

We run,

Cal: Oh, okay.

Tom: We run three soft hose
travelers and plus we have some

little bike shift sprinklers.

I'm not sure if anyone knows what that is,
but they're fairly common in Australia.

So we have big, big boom sprayers
and we irrigate around 70 hectares

of, of pasture for the cows.

The heifers and dry cows run on dry land
and it's very marginal as you can imagine,

20 inch rainfall with hard winters.

It's a fairly marginal country.

I think if I could move them multiple
times a day, I could grow a lot of grass.

The time and effort is
not really worth it.

So they do get moved every couple of days.

I put in a, you know, I put in the basic
effort of moving them every couple of

days and but if I could get some really
high density stocking rates with heifers,

I think I could grow a lot of grass on
the, on the marginal dry land paddocks.

Because just by doing what we're doing.

We've turned paddocks that were
just bare with no grass into, you

know, somewhat, somewhat pasture
paddocks, dry land, pasture paddocks.

Yeah, so I, I am seeing a huge
difference by doing half a job.

If I could do a proper job,
I'd think I'd see a huge

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom: Yeah,

Cal: Yeah.

It gets down to that time issue
because you don't have the

ability to run them as all one mob

Tom: No,

yeah.

No, we can't.

We, we run all our heifers in one mob
'cause we're only carved once a year,

which is a, back to the reason I do that.

So all our heifers running one mob.

So at the moment I've got, I
got 90 rising two year olds and

I've got about 70 or 80 calves.

And they all, they all run as one mob.

Cal: Oh yeah.

Tom, before we move to the famous
four questions, do you have

anything else you'd like to add?

Tom: I don't think so.

I think we've touched on most things.

There's, there's a lot of

Cal: I, I, I tried to.

Tom: there's a lot of things I say
that I'm not sure whether many people

understand, but we'll see how we go.

It might be something
different for your listeners.

Cal: But yeah.

We'll, we'll see how it goes.

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Cal: And our first question,
what's your favorite grazing

grass related book or resource?

I

Tom: Good question.

So, I employed a guy, I think I
mentioned this before, about five

years ago, and he put me on the.

Regenerative word that
I'd never heard before.

He put me onto a book called Call of
the Read, warbler by Charles Massey.

Um, Charles actually
lives not far from me.

He's probably only an hour or a bit,
bit over an hour from me, and I'd never

heard of him until I read his book.

And that put me on this journey of
realizing that there's this massive

group of farmers, particularly in the
Northern Hemisphere, on the same journey

that I'm, that I've been on forever.

So Gabe Brown's book, dirt to Soil,
another Easy read that between

them two books, they've yeah.

That I would highly recommend them
if I, I assume most people have read

them, but if you haven't read them

Cal: Yeah.

Or they're on there to read list.

I've read parts of both of them, but
I haven't read 'em both completely.

Tom: Yeah, they've got a Charlie's books
are they're fairly different style of

books, but Charlie's book is good pretty
much the whole way through Gabe's book.

I found that you sort of gotta
take bits and pieces out of it.

There's a lot of stuff in there
that probably wasn't relevant

to me and but I still, it's an
easy read and, and it's good to

Cal: Yeah.

Yeah.

And both excellent resources.

What's your favorite tool for the farm?

Tom: Oh, good question.

I knew this was coming and
I actually forgot about it.

I was thinking about
books instead of tools.

I will say that I.

When?

When I first started farming,
this is a bit of a story here.

When I first started farming, I used
to have these cheap gumboots, right?

And I would lie in bed at
night and my calves would ache,

and I never knew why it was.

And then Gemma, my wife, decided to buy
me expensive gumbo from New Zealand.

I can't remember the brand of them,
but they had lots of cushion in them.

And when I hopped in bed,
my calves didn't ache.

So

I would say my number one tool
is these comfortable gum boots.

They are, yeah, they've been a
bit of a game changer for me.

Cal: I don't think we've ever had
them listed as the favorite tool

on the farm, but I would have to
say it makes a world a difference.

Just depending upon what shoes I've got.

Or I had two pairs of tennis shoes and
I, I bought one and it's supposed to

be good for my foot, so it wouldn't
bother me, and I wore 'em on the

farm, and then I had my good pair.

And I've been wearing my good pair,
which is actually the cheaper, the two

brands, because I paid more for the one
that I wear out and about when it's dry.

'cause I, I want it to not hurt, but I
went and painted in a house on concrete

and those shoes I wore on the farm,
I could barely walk the next day.

And it's just awful when that happens.

That may be speaking to my
age, but man, it was awful.

So in fact, I got rid of those
shoes and I've been wearing

the others all the time now.

Tom: Yeah, these are a game changer,
especially you spend so much time walking

on concrete as a dairy farmer and, and
you don't really think about looking

after your feet and your legs, but yeah.

Cal: Yeah.

That's, that's so important.

I know when I came home from college to
dairy, I know my, my parents, they were

about down with their feet and legs from
standing on the concrete all the time.

Tom: Yeah,

Cal: Our third.

Our third question, what
would you tell someone?

Just getting started?

Tom: don't look at what
other people are doing.

Worry about your operation, worry about
what works for you, what you enjoy.

I got, when I first started
farming, I got very caught up in

trying to follow the norm, I guess.

And, but I didn't really
particularly like farming like that.

I, I've.

I enjoy growing grass.

I enjoy cows on grass.

There's a push in Australia for for
more feed blotting cows and putting

cows on feed pads and things like that.

And then there was times during my farming
career, I sort of went down that path

trying to milk too many cows and trying to
put cows on ous feed, but it wasn't really

my skill level and I didn't enjoy it.

So I've gone back to particularly the
last six or eight years, I've gone back

to what I enjoy and what I'm good at.

And that is growing grass and having cows
on grass for as long a period as I can.

Cal: Excellent advice there.

Yeah.

Just even when we look at people
on the same journey, we believe

we are on, we gotta be careful
about they're in a different spot

on their journey than we are.

So don't get caught up

in that either.

Tom: especially there when, when
you look at finances too and you

see someone that's just bought a
new mixer wagon and you think, oh, I

should be buying a new mixer wagon.

But, you know, it's completely
different financial situations.

Cal: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And, and I get caught
up in that sometimes.

My wife's like, Nope,
quit worrying about that.

Yes ma'am.

Where can others find out more
about you and what you're doing?

Tom: Yeah, I'm not really on social media.

I, I have social media, but I
don't really go on it that much.

I'm in the, I'm in your
group, but I rarely

Cal: Right.

You're in the Grazing

Tom: I mean, yeah.

Yeah.

And I've posted in there a couple of
times, but yeah, I don't really, I

don't particularly like social media.

So my wife runs, my wife runs a Facebook
and Instagram account for our stud cows.

I, I think it's called Tango Holsteins.

She puts up very cute calf photos
and photos of our kids with cows

at shows and things like that.

So that's probably where
you can find their business.

Cal: Oh, very good.

Very good.

Before we finish today, Tom,
do you have a question for me?

Tom: I do, and I've been thinking
about this for a while actually.

I would like you to describe
your, if you were to go back into

dairy farming, I would like you to
describe what it would look like.

Cal: If I, if, if I had the money, could
go back into dairying obviously I'd have

a newer barn and a bigger barn because
like you mentioned earlier about milking

for an hour, that would be my goal.

That if my, if I'm getting to
choose, I'm deciding how many cows

I'm milking and that's gonna be
based upon how much grass I have.

And I would get a barn that I
can milk them in an hour, or I'd

figure out about the robot milker.

And I've always loved, you know,
moving the cows, doing the.

The lane to the barn.

You know, we never had a lane to the barn.

The cows went out in this
pasture during the day.

Another pasture at night in that
area where that pasture met the

barn area where the gates they
went through was always a mess.

And we, we put down so much rock.

Of course, if you put down that
geo textile fabric, now you can

hold that rock on the top, which
is a game changer for our corrals.

But I wouldn't even worry about that now
because of the virtual fencing and talking

to people about the virtual fencing
and halter being able to automatically

shift your cows to the dairy barn.

I, I mean, I, I can always remember
going out and going to get the cows

or someone had to go get the cows.

Well, someone else is
getting the barn ready.

If the virtual fence can do that for
you, bring the cows up get you a nice.

You know, herring bones was
all the fashion back then.

The parallels

para bone, I think one, one
company's got para bones that set

'em not quite a herring bone, but
not 90 degrees to you, whatever.

I guess I would get used to that.

I actually love the side, the, the full
side and single entry exit, but you

can't milk very many cows through there.

But I like seeing the whole cow, so
I guess I just have to get used to a,

a parallel or a herringbone to do it.

I do a swing over barn.

We did low line milkers, but I think
you can get more through there if

you've got a bigger barn and swing.

Then the grass is for
the breeds of cattle.

If, if this is all make believe, I
would choose some unknown breed or some.

Rare breed to milk.

Granted, I, I think you, I have to,
depending on your market, I mean, you

got hostings, but you gotta get 'em
moderate size so they can handle grazing.

If you're doing more of the specialty
market, the jerseys really excel there.

But you know, if I'm gonna do
hostings, it's gotta be red hols.

It's gotta be a little bit different.

Well, of course I like the air
shires and the Milky Shore horns.

I've always loved Dutch belted.

The line backs are always great.

Probably have to do a hosting
base and then just play with those

breeds some you all have milking
shore horns down there, the auroras

Tom: Yeah.

Yep.

There's a few farmers around here, a few
farms around here with full Illawarra

herds and they date back to genuine
Illawarra cows from 150 years ago.

It's very, very old stud
breeders have the Illawarra cows.

Ca

Cal: And I think those genetics
have been brought into the us.

Of course, they're, I'm pretty
sure just absorbed into the

milking shore horns here.

And and, and that's one thing, since
all the genetics have been host of

Holified, you know, they've, they've
added a hosting genetics to milking

shore Horn, air Shire, all these
breeds to increase their production.

I definitely would prefer the older type
and not worry about producing so much.

But that, that's all depends on how
much money I got in a bank account,

because you gotta make money.

Tom: it's always good to dream.

I always have these dreams about
if if I was to start again, what

would my farm look like if I didn't
have any debt and things like that.

Cal: yeah.

Yeah.

Have, yeah.

I, I do, I I love the New Zealand type of
milking sheds that's just got the roof.

Our environment's not real conductive
to that, but that'd be, you know, if

you had garage doors on the side of
it that you could open up during the

time of year, you, that is possible.

That'd be really nice.

And yeah, I have a flush
system to clean it all quickly.

Yeah, it, you know, I remember
high school, obviously this

doesn't make me very popular.

I'd read so many dairy magazines and
I'd designed parlors all the time.

I, I had notebooks full of parlors and
different types and different layouts.

I can remember telling my parents
about it, and I'm sure they

thought I was crazy at the time.

And I'm even shocked.

They listened to me for however, how
many different parlors and then I even.

This is really going back.

I had a in television video game
system, but they came out with a

keyboard and you could run, no,
actually I had to take that back.

We had a Vic 20 keyboard that
would plug into the TV that

you could write programs for.

So I wrote a program so I could cross
breed dairy cattle and it'd draw me a

pedigree of, of the breeds that in there.

And then it averaged all their expected
milk production and butter, flat fat and

stuff to come up with this composite.

That was the, the dairy cow I'd breed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I love that exercise, Tom.

That's a question I haven't been asked.

And I, I love the aspect of dairy.

You know, of course I'd like to have
a little store at the road that I

could sell all my products through.

Tom: we, yeah, that would be one thing
we'll venture into one day is being

able to process our own milk or, or even
just a, a small portion of our own milk.

'cause we live on this main road.

We get lots of people that would,
I, I believe, would love to call

in and just buy two liters to

Cal: Oh, I, I

think so.

And I, I love the idea of making cheese
as well, and other dairy products.

Tom: Yeah.

Yeah.

Cal: Yeah.

Well, that's a good question, Tom.

I really hadn't thought about
it, and I'm thinking I didn't,

I gotta round out my answer

Tom: I know you've got a deep love for
dairy farming and milking cows and things

like that, so I knew you'd enjoy that.

Cal: oh yeah.

That, that was a good one.

I did enjoy it.

Tom, Tom, I really appreciate you
coming on and sharing with us today.

Tom: No worries.

Thanks for having me.

It's good to, I dunno, I
like these sort of podcasts.

They're, they're easy to listen to and
it's lots of different, lots of different

angles at regenerative farming, I think.

Cal: we good.

We, I hope people enjoy it.

Tom: I'm sure they do.

I enjoyed the conversation with Tom.

I always enjoyed the opportunity
to talk about daring, especially

in a place I've never been.

It's very interesting.

We gotta talk a little bit about breeds.

As you know, I always love breeds.

The other thing that I think was
interesting, he brought up the fact when

he heard about Regenerative and looked
into it, he's like, oh, this is what.

I've been doing for all these years.

You know, I can remember when
Greg Judy named his channel

Regenerative Grazier, Greg, Judy.

I'm like, what's that even mean?

Then dug in deeper and it's
what I'm trying to do here,

trying to be regenerative.

And as we mentioned on the podcast,
Tom and I mentioned lower inputs,

lower costs, uh, make more profit and.

The leave that land in a better
shape than we've had it before.

And I think it all goes hand in hand,
which it's amazing that it does.

But I did think that part was
really interesting and I really

appreciate Tom coming on and sharing.

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