Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So Riki, we
will get started with the fast five.

First question, what's your name?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
I'm Riki Kramer.

I ranch in Lance Creek, Wyoming.

Together with my husband and my
daughter, we run Kramer's Ranch,

Kramer's Land and Livestock.

It's about 8,000 acres the
eastern central part of Wyoming.

Brush, short grass, pretty arid.

We're, we're, we're in some, not
like really tough country, but is

tougher than some other places.

So

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I think
it's a tougher area than what I'm in.

And what livestock species do you graze?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
we run Angus cross cattle, then we

have a horse herd, a, a pretty good
sized horse herd that we raise.

And then my daughter has
some meat goats that she's.

Grazing and grazing as well.

They don't run with the cows, they just
kind of migrate around the, the house

here in about four different pastures.

But we do have goats.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

Those goats are always a fun addition.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yes.

Yes, they are, we're
we're kidding right now.

And range kidding at that,
like an Easter egg hunt every

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

Well that, that's always fun
when you can go out, when they

can manage their own kids.

Have 'em.

You can just go out and see 'em.

It's like a Easter egg hunt.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: What year
did you all start grazing Livestock?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So
this was my husband's family's ranch,

and so they have been ranching on
this property since 1973, I believe.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh,

yes,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
50 years, his family's been here.

We bought the ranch
from his family in 2008.

No, 2007.

And so then when, when we bought it, we
were able to transition to our own style.

My husband had already been kind of
grazing his own way doing his own thing.

He was a May caver, his family was
a February caver through the barn.

So I mean, we,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: had
gone through a major transition and

so we, when we bought the place, I.

We started looking at some
rotational grazing options,

some different things like that.

But it was just, everything always seems
so daunting and unfeasible because we

are large pastures, we are rough country.

We've got some draws that are, it's
hard to keep permanent fancy and let

alone string temporary fence or change
temporary fence or anything like that.

The deer and the antelope run through it.

If you, if you can name, find it, name it.

We had the reason why it
wouldn't work, I mean,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
explored all of those options and so.

That we just kept kind of plugging
along, looking at some different

things, though, with our grazing
techniques changes over time.

And so we've been refining our grazing
and everything since 2007, 2008.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 2008
is when I really started keeping records.

So we'll just, we'll just say really 2008.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based

livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve

the land animals and our lives.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
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For 10 seconds about the podcast and for
the farm, and kind of combine those today.

So I was thinking about record keeping
and I've seen some things online.

How are you keeping records?

I made a poll in the
Grazing Grass community.

It asked, what are you using
to keep your grazing records,

your, um, livestock records?

And I put paper and pencil and
spreadsheets, but I left it open

so you can add what you're using.

I'd love to see what you're using to
keep track of this, so next year you're

able to look back and see how it's gone.

Look forward to seeing your
answers, and let's get back to Riki.

I.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407:
Before, before 2008.

Y'all were running a few cows.

Did you grow up on a ranch as well?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I did.

I grew up in a ranch in central Wyoming.

Near Casey and so I wasn't
unfamiliar with ag either.

My family also was a
February March cabr and

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
that, that's been a transition.

Set Stock grazing is how I grew up.

Set stock grazing is how Justin grew up.

And so that just even changing the idea
that we didn't have a summer range and

a winter range that the cattle just
stayed on nonstop for those seasons

was quite a change for this place.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

What was the catalyst for
you all going this February

kidding or February, kidding?

We were talking about
goats a little bit ago.

This February calving's not for us.

And you all made the move to May.

What was the catalyst for that?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: The
catalyst really was the fact that Justin

was trying to, when he was, I think just
shortly outta college, so mid nineties,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
wasn't, there wasn't room for him

and his brother and his mom and
dad all on this place with cattle.

And so he went in search of lease
pastures for himself and the pastures

that he was able to find were about
30 miles north of us and two track

roads were the best entrance to them.

so when you're got your cattle up
there that's not real accessible in

February to check 'em, there's dang
sure no facilities to check 'em.

And

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: to
May calving at that point just because

he couldn't get to his cows and,
and he is never looked back since.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yes.

But did you all, when you all
became able to, to go back to

February, Kev, Kevin, was that ever
a thought that crossed your mind?

Or at that point, were you like,
no, this is so much better at her?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Yeah, we, that thought has, it

crosses our mind and we go, no,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: No.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: back.

And, and actually we have
gone the other direction.

When I was pregnant with my daughter,
we were May Havers 1st of May, and

I, I don't know, I was, she was
born in July, so I was like seven

months pregnant and we had Mother's
Day, blizzards blow in right, right

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: middle.

You know, we just started calving,
we're calving right along.

we looked at each other as we're
trying to drag calves outta snow

drifts and everything else to
try to get, get 'em saved, and

we're like, this ain't worth it.

So we actually pushed back
to June 1st, calving now.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

And June 1st is working pretty good
that that's probably beyond most of the

increment weather that you all might have.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
It, it really is.

I think in this last year we, we
decided we'd back up four or five days.

So this year our intended calving
date was, I think roughly May 27th.

So we started calving actually
on the 22nd with our early cat

or those short gestation cows.

as we were out through 'em the
other day, yesterday, in fact, I

would say we're pushing probably 60%
done in this first two week window.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, nice.

Yeah.

What, what kind of breeding
period are you all using?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
We use a a 45 day breed up.

But when we transitioned to our IMG
style of grazing and stockmanship, it

actually naturally synced our herd.

so it's crazy to watch, like
breeding season is unreal.

Like the amount of cattle they
get bred in that short amount

of time, all natural service.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

We, we will have to talk about
that more a little bit later.

Let's, so 2008, you all
had the opportunity to buy

Justin's parents' place.

You all bought it.

What'd the infrastructure look like?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
2008, Justin, I think, well, I think

more closer to 2002, had kind of
come back to the family ranch in a

little bit and was leasing half of it.

And so

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
he then was able to, at his own

expense that he needed water on
the half that he was leasing.

And so he put in, oh geez, in oh five,
I think close to 10 or 12 miles of

two inch pipeline and water tanks.

then after we bought the place, so in.

seven.

So in oh eight I think it was,
we went ahead and pipelined

the other half of the place.

So we have about 22 miles of pipeline
that off run off of two wells and

are, is in an every single pasture.

And then our pasture size
ranged from 70 to 1100 acres.

And so I think there's oh 20, 21
or 22 pastures that we have that

are in varying sizes, all permanent
barbed wire fence a lot of that

fence from the forties and fifties.

We have some new fences, cross fences
that we've put in, but very few.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

With, with coming back and having that
infrastructure in place or that you

all have in place now, did you ever
try any electric fence or were you just

rotating them through those pastures?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We
did try some electric fence stuff.

Just, from 2008 up to 2017, we were game
to try a lot of different things and

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: lot
of different things didn't work for us.

We're such a brittle area, we could never
get the pasture size You know, like one

area of the ground would be really kind
of productive and then you'd move to the

next section and it's not as productive.

You'd have the same size of paddock then
you're, you're not able to get equal

grazing just because we're so uneven in
our, in our production, in our pastures.

Temporary fence, just, it
became a nightmare for us.

I have of temporary fence
posts and lots of poly wire.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

But you're not using any of them now.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: nope.

We've gotten, gotten
away from all of it now.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

With your,

with your grazing management.

Are you feeding hay?

Were you feeding hay in oa?

Are you feeding any cake?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
In, let's see, in 2008, we were

caking about two pounds ahead a day.

And that slowly tapered off
till 2016 when we were feeding

a half a pound every other day.

And we finally looked at each other
and said, why are we coming out here

to feed a half a pound every other day?

so in 16 we quit cake, everything.

Hay is kind of on a as needed basis up

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 2020,
we probably hadn't fed but maybe 25 round

bales total in the previous 25 years.

Like

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
feed hay in the winter.

Now, in 2020 it was a
little bit different.

And we can get into that a little
bit later too, if you want, on

the, what happened in that year?

We had an early freeze
and so our grass did it.

It came up and then it winter
killed, basically frost killed.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we had,
we were stocked to the hilt 'cause we,

we knew we had this thing figured out.

And then we ended up selling ca
or cattle off, like leased cattle.

We had in, we, we early outed leases
grazed insurance pastures just

to get us into October, November.

And then we had to go full feed
hay and that's the first time that

Justin had ever had to feed full
feed hay since the mid nineties.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Well, it never fails.

Just when you think you
have something figured out.

Mu mother nature says, oh no, you don't.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right?

Yeah.

We've been humbled

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: bit.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah, yeah.

It, it doesn't matter what it
is, what species species it is.

Even with my honeybees, it's
like when I think I've got

this figured out no you don't.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

Here's just another lesson for you.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

With the, the discontinuing of
feeding cake to your animals, I

see a lot of feed trucks run up
and down our roads all the time.

How was that transition for you?

Did you run into any wrecks doing that?

Or was it enough?

Was it gradual enough and you
all had already decreased down

to a half pound a day or so?

Was it not any big deal?

I.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
It really wasn't a big deal.

I don't know that we saw a big change
in our cows all, so it was, it was

actually just kind of a nice deal.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Not having to go out there and
feed them that little bit of feed

every day with, with your cows.

I think earlier you mentioned
Angus crossed, have you

always had Angus crossed?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Yeah, yeah, we're

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Black Angus.

Sometimes we run a herford cross in
there, so we do have some baldies

and I

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Have you

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
we've got a Red Angus, a black

headed red Angus bull that we've been

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
a couple years too.

But I still call it Angus

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
guys are not gonna be happy, but

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: No they won't.

But when you say a black-eyed
red Angus, that's a different

animal than a black Angus to me.

So.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
yep, it is.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

So what have you, what has happened
to the type of cow you're running?

Has that changed over the years?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Maybe a little.

Our cattle are, are small framed, I mean
rolly, pully fat in July, coming off

of the best summer feed and being dry.

When we run 'em through the sail
barn, they will, the top end of

'em would maybe hit 1200 pounds.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
10 50 to 1100 pound cows.

And that's when they're fat,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So it's not those huge cows so many
people think of when you think of Angus.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: right?

No,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Of course, that,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
old school genetics.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah,
that's a oxymoron when I say that

too, because when growing up.

We had a dairy and we always used
Angus bulls on the heifers so we

could have small calves, but by the
time we got out, we had to stop that

because the Angus calves were too big.

We couldn't find bulls that would
have those little calves for us.

You, you have your multiple paddocks,
you have your watering systems, and you

mentioned you had two inch pipes and
watering holes through in every pasture.

Are you doing like a tire tank
or a 10 foot tank out there?

What's your watering point look

like?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we
do have the big 12 foot tire pit tanks.

We're pretty fortunate here in Lus.

That was, believe, one of the first places
that was cutting those tire tanks down.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh,

yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: so,
you know, they were handy right here in

our own backyard, 30 miles away from us.

So we do have boy, I bet we're
probably up to 25 to 30 of those

tanks scattered throughout.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: And
that makes it really nice.

Did you all do anything for a base
for those wire, for that watering

area, or did you just pipe it and
put the, the tire tank out there?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Really, we've just piped it in and put

the tire tank there and occasionally
we have to haul some more dirt.

And if

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Mm-hmm.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you know,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: is kind
of a big factor on some of our tanks.

Sometimes we get a little bit of
water erosion from if it overflows

or something, but typically it's
a wind erosion that gets us.

And like a lot of people
gravel pack 'em, but we don't

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: access
to a, to a real handy gravel pit all

the time without a lot of freight on it.

so we just kind of rely on our
heavy soils to be able to hold it.

One thing that we've noticed though is
when we made our shift in our grazing

the cattle don't just kinda lounge around
the tanks anymore and beat that out.

So a lot of times the only place
about a cow's width away from the

drinking tank is all that's beat out
and the rest of it's all grassed in.

And so

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: kind of
an unusual thing that we noticed when we,

when we changed our grazing techniques,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

And what I know you talked about during
those early years, you all were looking

and considering all different options.

What brought you to IMG?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That
that was a journey in itself, I guess.

So we, you know, we tried the
rotation thing and we had the

rotation thing down pretty good.

I mean, we'd made some
pretty good improvements.

We went, typically this
area is 40 acres to the cow.

And just through what we were
doing in 2008, actually were

down to 34 acres to the cow.

So we'd made some improvements,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh,

yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
always just kind of felt like

there's something else there.

Like, we're missing something.

There's something that can be done
to, to get this over the hump.

Like we just kind of
plateaued right there.

And so this one day we were out,
we'd looked at some badlands of ours

and, and how we could improve those.

And we had a bunch of, I don't
know, it was like 10 or 12-year-old

crested wheat hay, small bales
that the strings had rotted on.

we're like,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
I don't know.

Let's go scatter that hay out over in
these Badlands and see what happens.

And so we did, we went and, and
scattered that hay out and they

were like, well, I think we need to
bring the cows in here and let them

finish scattering this hay for us.

And so my daughter, I don't know,
she must have been six or eight at

the time just a little, little girl.

And so we're, the three of us are
out there a horseback and we're

holding these cattle in this
basin and letting 'em just mill.

And we'd hold 'em there for a couple

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: did
that three times, three days in a row.

And every time they tried to come
out, we'd just kick 'em back down in

there and, and just force 'em just
to kind of move around, walk around,

walk paths, scatter, all that hay.

Well, I had taken pictures of it
before and after, and the video of

it all happening and everything.

And there was a Facebook group
at the time that I was a part of,

and I had just shared those videos
out there for conversation piece.

And Bob Kin sees it and he's like,
a minute, you guys really need to

try instinctive, migratory grazing.

He is like, it's gonna fit your deal.

I've been watching what you're doing.

And we're like, tell us a little more.

so he, he, he and I got
to talking about it.

Well, that was like in
March when that all started.

in April I had a horse
fall and break my ankle.

And so now I'm laid up and now
I am like a captive audience.

And so Bob

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
conversing a lot more and I'm like,

okay, I think I got this figured out.

And I go to Justin, I'm like, okay,
this is what Bob says we have to do.

So we'd go out and we'd work with
our cows and I'd video it 'cause

I couldn't do anything else.

And Bob would say, Nope, you,
you just don't quite have it yet.

And we were trying to hurt him,
trying to place him, trying to get

him to graze, do all the stuff that he
does, and it just, it wasn't working.

But then one day we were out, like
in, must have been June or July, we

were out riding and we'd come across
the pasture and we'd worked with

our cattles and cattle just enough
that we could see some changes.

And as we rode into this pasture, we
came through this gate and it was like

somebody had came through and mechanically
mowed just a swath through this pasture.

And the residual height on
it was like four inches.

Everything else untouched
like eight, nine inches.

And we're like, what in the world?

Like nobody would come through
here with a swather or anything.

And

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you
know, we're like, what's going on here?

So then we got paying attention
and watching our cattle a little

more and we're like, oh, we're,
we're onto something here.

Like Bob kind of has this figured out.

We don't know what it is yet, but
he's got something figured out.

And so finally I called him up
and I said, you gotta get up here.

Like we we're.

Getting there, but we're not there.

You're right.

We don't have this figured out.

so he came up then in August
showed us the techniques that

it takes to reboot the herd.

And we spent five days
working with our cattle.

And then after that we haven't looked
back because the changes have just been

tremendous and they just keep coming.

And the, the changes in the way
our cattle behave, the way they

graze, the way they interact,
everything was like this huge shift.

And it's enough of a shift that
we went from being 34 acres to

the cow to averaging 16 acres to
the cow over the last seven years.

So

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes,

so.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
right there from 2008, doubled

our stocking rate after we were

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: doing
well, you know, for the 40 acres per cow.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

You doubled it after it was
already an improved stocking

rate from where it'd been.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yes.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

So it was, so you all kinda, excuse
the word, but played around with

it for three or four months while
communicating with Bob before Bob got

up there to, to help y'all get that.

Maybe you might say the last mile

to figure That, out.

yeah,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
that's a good way to term it because,

yeah, we played with it and we kind of
had an idea of what we were doing, but

still didn't have the fine techniques.

And come to find out, you, you really
can't get the fine techniques until

somebody show physically shows you,
and you, you actually experienced that.

It's crazy.

I mean, I, I'd watched videos, I'd, I did
everything and it, it took the hands-on

teaching of it to finally get it to click.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407:
And Bob's got a website.

We'll put in our show notes, so if
anyone's interested, they're able to, to,

go see what Bob's got more on it, as well
as whatever you have we'll put in our show

notes with, with doing that,
first off, just tell people, tell

our listeners what IMG is and
what, what does it attempt to do.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So IMG
stands for Instinctive Migratory Grazing.

And what it attempts to do is
mimic the natural herd behavior.

It doesn't mimic it, it is the natural
herd behavior of the cattle and the way

that they move through an area selecting
the forages that they need at that time

based on what's kind of, what's available.

And the maturity levels, I mean, it, it
really is a selective grazing, which I

know is not what everybody's after, but

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: in,
essence, that's what the big herds did.

They selectively chose the forage that
they needed for the time of development

or stage of life that they were in that
fit their, their nutritional requirements.

As we watch our yearlings, they
graze different things than our

pears do or than our heavy cows Do.

You know, it's, it's crazy what
the cattle will instinctively do.

Now, to unlock that, it takes
some stockmanship you've got

a, the stockmanship piece.

It appears to take the stress
away from the cattle so that

want to stay together as a herd.

They want to go back to those old
instinctive ways travel as a group.

The density of it really depends on
the forage quality and quantity that

they are in at that particular time.

Like in late June mid, mid to late
June, our cattle will probably

be the densest that they are.

then as the forage starts to decline, they
start to spread out a little bit more.

And then in the winter months when
they're grazing, you'll see it, it's

a, it's a path that they're on and,
and they're dang sure moving as a

herd, but it's a pretty loose herd.

But they're, you know, the
stuff they're grazing is, is not

quality at all, but it still has

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
ample nutrition to it, to,

for survival basically.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

And we want to tell our
listeners real quick, or.

I can't even talk.

English is new to me.

I wanna tell listeners just real
quick, it's our overgrazing section

for today is IMG and talking about it.

Speaker 2: At Redmond, we know that
you thrive when your animals do.

That's why it's essential to fill
the gaps in your herd's nutrition

with the minerals that they need.

Made by nature, our ancient mineral
salt and conditioner clay are the

catalyst in optimizing the nutrients
your animals get from their forage.

Unaltered and unrefined, our minerals
have the natural balance and proportion

to help that your animals prefer.

This gives your herd the ability
to naturally regulate their

mineral consumption as they graze.

Our minerals won't just help you
improve the health of your animals,

but will also help you naturally build
soil fertility so you can grow more

nutrient dense pasture year after year.

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and your life with Redmond.

Learn more at redmondagriculture.

com

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: But it's a
deeper dive in that we do for something

on your ranch, a practice there.

And with IGM, you all got that started
and you all already had these fences

in place, these smaller paddocks.

And when we say smaller, you
mentioned earlier, we're still

talking large, 70 to 1100 acres, so
we're still talking large paddocks.

Did that work in conjunction with those
paddocks or pastures you have or was

that any type of problem with that?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
so when you, theory.

IMG can be used, like in theory you
would gut all the interior fences

and they would have this entire 8,000
acres to be able to migrate around,

choose the grasses that they needed.

Thank goodness we, like I mentioned,
we have all the horses and we had

several horse bands that we have
to keep fence separate, a couple

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
things like that.

And so we couldn't pull all the
interior fences, and I'm really

glad that we didn't because.

Along this journey, after learning about
IMG, went to a seminar that was done

by Ian Mitchell Ennis, and he, he was
very much so talking about the same type

of grazing, only he was using herders
get the same effect that I was getting

with our instinctive migratory grazing.

And what really clicked right there
after listening to him and conversing

with him a little bit, was that we
needed these fences I needed to confine

them to a specific area to say, okay,
you guys are gonna migrate this 70

acres, and it might only take you a day
to migrate it, but I need you to get

everything that you're gonna get outta
here, and then I'll open the gate and

you'll move on to the next pasture.

And you'll do the same thing.

Now, we're not taking it to the ground.

We're only taking the top third
because when they, when you reboot

those cows and you don't force 'em
to take everything, they really

only want one bite off of a plant.

And so

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: taking
that top third and then they're moving on.

And so what I had really gained
from Ian was a grazing plan.

And so that's what I call
planned migratory grazing.

And it's, it's strictly built on ratios
of pasture size the amount of rest

that you want each pasture to get.

so our entire grazing plan
is set up on a formula.

And like, well, like last weekend I
think is when I finally got ours done.

We'd been kind of winging it to be
honest with you this year because we're

like, oh, we're a little bit behind.

Well, we

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yes,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that.

Yep, it's time to come
out of this pasture.

And so I finally sat down, got all
the math done, did all the figuring

on it, and got our grazing plan from
now until December 31st, all laid out.

And so our, our infrastructure that
was already in place really played a

key role in that and knowing what our

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
sizes were

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: hope, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and how
long we wanted those pastures to rest.

So now we only graze summer graze
with our cow, main cow herd,

about 3000, maybe 3,500 acres.

And then our yearlings will graze
another 3000, maybe 2,500 acres.

so then that leaves,
that's like 5,500 total.

So there's another 25, 3000, acres
that are in insurance pastures that

are in rest for a full grazing season.

And sometimes that adjusts.

Sometimes we have to pull things out
of insurance, if the grass is growing

and we get the perfect ideal rains and
everything, sometimes we shorten up those

acres that we're on so that maybe our
main cow herd is only grazing 2000 to

2,500 acres for the entire summer and
everything else is in insurance or rest.

So it's, it's been quite a journey
with the instinctive migratory

grazing and then combining it with
our planned migratory grazing.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
It's been incredible watching.

Like one thing that we did one
year was we started the cattle over

on the far east end of our place.

We're we're contiguous, so that helps.

as they would graze a pasture
and the the math on our plan said

they should be coming out about a
day before we'd go open the gate.

sure enough, we'd go back the next
day that they were like, the day

well actually be the day after.

So there was a day skip in there.

the day after, what they should have
been coming out of that pasture and they

were out and grazing the next pasture.

So we just kept doing
that and we grazed them.

We migrated them all the way through.

they think 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5 pastures.

migrated with us just opening the gate
the day before, the night before they were

supposed to come out of there type deal.

And so what that allows us to do is
we now graze some pastures and six

times in a growing season because
we've only taken the top third.

it only takes, sometimes it
takes 15 to 20 days to recover.

Sometimes it takes 45 days to recover.

Just kind of

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you know, when we're, when we're

really moving fast through 'em, that
us because we can come back around

and graze again that same pasture I.

That in itself has been an eyeopener
because they don't always graze

the same plants each time through.

So when they come through in May, they're
gonna be grazing the cheat grasses

and the early cool seasons grasses.

come back through in June, those ch,
those grasses are already kind of

mature and headed out and they've
picked up a different grass that

they're going after or for or whatever.

it didn't matter that our grazing plans
still held for whatever species of grass

that they were after because we have
such great diversity in our pastures.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: With them
going through just a little bit.

I wanna talk more about your forages
and your pastures in just a moment, but

help me see when you got this herding
instinct rebooted in your cow herd.

Am I looking out there and I would see,
I would think they were surrounded by

electric fences and kept in a small area.

They're grazing that close together
as they move through a pasture.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
At times.

Yes.

Depending on which pastures they were
in, if we have 'em down on the sub

irrigated meadows, I've actually got
video clips and pictures of them being

tight, like they were fenced into an area.

And

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
when you realize that they have access

to 900 acres and they're just in
this little wad just walking along,

migrating along, grazing huge when
you, when you finally get to see that,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
uplands, they're not gonna be that

tight, but you will see 'em, let's see.

We could have two to 300 head,
like 200 head of, of pairs

roughly five acres as, as

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh wow.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: along,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you know, but we've also seen 'em as

tight as a hundred foot by 200 foot,
whatever, you know, that's like three

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Uh oh.

Yes.

N now with your cow herd,
you all went through that

process and got the IMG going.

Have y'all brought any, in,
any new cows into the herd

other than what you've raised?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We
have, have, we actually, so in that

since 2017, I bought some cows to, bring
in, and that was, that was an adventure

getting them to hook onto our cows.

They, they settled in a
lot faster than we, than.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
have because of the way we handled,

but you could sure see that some of
those cows had maybe been mishandled

as they would run and search out
trees to hide under or brush up.

And, you know, it took a few times of
handling 'em to figure for them to figure

out, Hey, it's okay to be with the herd.

You don't have to run away and go
isolate yourself like the herds

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: be.

then we've also brought in two separate
groups of share cattle as we keep

building our numbers, leveraging
somebody else's cattle, basically.

But, you know, it's, it's always
interesting watching those cattle come

in and, and they'll finally assimilate.

Some cattle take a little
longer than others, just

depending on their background.

We've not found, we've, we actually
used the stockmanship techniques.

We were day working quite
a bit up until about 2020.

And so for three years there.

We had, we were day working pretty strong,
and so we hadn't found a herd of cattle

yet that wouldn't respond positively
to the stockmanship of the IMG stuff.

And we're talking range cattle
that were flighty, 10,000 acre

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: as they
saw you two miles away, they were gone.

And

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Their
head goes up and they go,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
away and they're coming towards us

because we're drawing them to us.

And instead of pushing
them away from us, it was

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
to watch.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: And how long
did that process take on you all's

initial herd to, to get that rebooted?

And when I say that, I know y'all did
a few months, then Bob came out there.

When Bob left was your herd,
would you consider him IMG?

At that point

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I would
consider them pretty strongly rebooted.

Yeah, it

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Five consistent days

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
screw ups.

I mean, as soon as you revert
back to old habits and everything

else, it blows 'em apart.

And so then you spend another
day or two essentially rebooting,

but it doesn't take as long.

but yeah,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: tell
you five days, five consistent days that

reboots is, is there, as long as you
continue with that same program then.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: And with your,
your five days, so you're saying someone

goes out to your course and we're gonna
talk about this later they come home

five days, they can go through this.

Is that, are they gonna spend those
five days out with the cows the whole

time, or is it a little while each day?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: It is.

So it's really now, like if you come
to our school, it's five and intense

days out with the cattle, mostly
because we've got so many people that

we need to get hands-on cattle, so
everybody needs opportunity or whatnot.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
the five, the five days are, you

have the techniques down, you know
what you're doing, you, you know how

to read everything that's going on.

You go home and you spa, you go out,
you move your cows, you like pick

'em up in the morning and take 'em to
water and put 'em on a grazing path.

day one.

You go out the

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you'll typically, what you'll see

is your cattle on day one, they will
be scattered all over the pasture.

And day one, you'll pick 'em
up, you'll move 'em to water.

Using the stockmanship techniques,
you'll take 'em off water and put 'em

on a grazing path and then let 'em be.

And day two, you'll go out and
you'll be like, nothing's changed.

so you'll pick 'em up again, and
you'll put 'em, you'll take 'em to

water, and then you'll put 'em on a
grazing path and you'll ride away.

So I mean, we're talking two to
three hours maybe, depending on

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and
how much area you're having to cover.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
And by day three, you'll kind of

see pods of cattle And so, you
know, you'll have a small group

here and a small group over there.

And so now you're gathering pods of cattle
to water instead of all these individuals.

And you'll bring 'em into
water and you'll take 'em off

and put 'em on a grazing path.

And then by day four, you'll see
about three distinct herds of cattle.

And then by day five you should be
down to two and usually you'll be

down to one distinct group of cattle.

It, it really does happen that fast
if you've got all of the pieces

in place with your stockmanship,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

And do you have to revisit that from
time to time or, it's like a computer.

It's rebooted, so it's good to go.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
so truly once you convert, you

don't ever want to go back.

Because every time, now, if we change
pastures, we use those techniques.

So essentially we are revisiting it

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: If we
went back to driving them, it would blow

'em apart and they would be stressed and
then they would just, they would never

come together and graze in the pasture.

So have to go back to the
IMG stockmanship techniques.

Every time we move our cows,
we take 'em to fresh pasture.

We put 'em on a grazing path.

And then they're good to go.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, very good.

With,

with the Stockman techniques, are
those beneficial for you even if

you're not working on horseback?

Or is it just mainly if
you're working from horseback?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We
we're really glad that we learned them

a horseback because now we understand
the communication that's going on.

'cause really it's communication between
your horse and the cattle, and that's

what's creating that draw and then getting
the cattle to do what they do and, and

re and reducing the stress on them.

have been able to progress those same
techniques into the Carell on foot.

But we

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
what our horse does.

so, and you know, once you understand
what the, the communication between

the animals, then you can start to
make that communication yourself.

And now we do have a four-wheeler.

We bought a four-wheeler
here a couple years ago.

We hadn't had one on the place for, I
mean, I think my husband had one when

he was in high school, but, so we bought
a four-wheeler and, and we've played

around with that a little bit too.

And it's, it's a whole different
type of, of communication.

You know, your horse has lateral movement,
which is huge in that four-wheeler

does not have lateral movement.

A

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
headlights that look like prey eyes.

Horses don't have.

Shaping up my horse's body because I
rely a lot on flex of my horse and to

send the, the, this, the communication
and, and whatnot is based on the head

posture and the body posture of my horse.

And a four wheeler is all
straight lines, you know, so it's,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
done, but it's, it's not as effective.

It just, I don't know.

It, I think if you learn the techniques
of horseback, you can figure out

how to make a four wheeler work,
but you still won't have the same

control that you have with a horse.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah,
so the horse is kind of the basic

level and I, I hate to use the word
basic, but you really gotta get the

handle on that before you try and
do some of the other, more advanced

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that's,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: you figure that.

out and understand it.

Yeah.

When, when you think about
operations that would benefit from

A IMG grazing, who, who is that?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I would
say it's large acres arid environment.

And that's, that's the, that's the
people that have not been able to get

rotational grazing to work for them.

When you're in a large acre arid
environment, you know, you're

so brittle, you can't, you can't
afford to take everything off.

You can't afford to screw up one of those
paddocks, you know, 'cause then you're two

to three years before it ever recovers.

And depending on how

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you could lose half your

ranch for two to three years.

And so really the IMG and the PMG.

It fits those large, large acres.

And I, you know, like we're not big, we're
8,000 and there's certainly a lot other

places that are a lot more acres than
we are and a lot more arid than we are.

You know, they're talking 80 to

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
to a cow and, and they're utilizing

it in some of those areas.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

Is there, there's a couple more questions
I have on your herd and on forages.

Well, let's go ahead and ask about
the forages, and I'll come back to

your herds and your pastures in just
a moment with your forages in doing

this, have you noticed any change
in your forage species or for each

quality, has it been negative, positive?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Through
the data that I've collected over the

years, we've seen a, a really nice shift
from, annual plants, our cheatgrass,

perennial plants, our Western wheat.

it's, it's been for the positive.

Like we

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
a cheatgrass problem.

Cheatgrass is one of those things that
we graze early on in March and April.

And so that keeps it pretty well
knocked back so that then our favorable

cool season grasses aren't competing
with it the entire cool season

long to the point that our cheat
grasses maybe a little endangered.

And I'm not sure what
we're gonna use as an early

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
we keep on this trend.

so that's, that is a major shift
that we've, we've seen and I've

got that data collected somewhere.

I just didn't, didn't drag it out,
but I, ah, I'm not even gonna quote

any numbers, but it's, it's been a

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
huge shift for the positive.

Like I said, we're sagebrush, we're
Western wheat, we're buffalo grass.

Thread leaf said,

green needle, grass, needle and thread.

Trying to think June.

Grass cheat grass.

Got some Broome grasses down
on the meadow like that.

I don't know.

At one point I think there was like
47 different species of plants, Forbes

grasses, available to graze that we, we
had monitored and found on our place.

So, I

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: variety.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I was about
to say, I've never been to Wyoming.

And then I was like, wait, I have,
I went to Cheyenne Rodeo once.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Barely, barely into the tip of Wyoming.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Barely.

Yes.

I think you've mentioned a few
times through this, you run your

cow herd as one herd and you
run yearlings as a second herd.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We do.

That allows it.

So we run our cow herd at, we found
that we can summer our cow herd and, and

rotational grazing with the IMG and they
actually will leave enough stockpile

forage that we can bring winter graze,
custom graze cattle in and graze all of

that that we just spent the summer on.

In the meantime, our yearlings are
grazing another section of the ranch,

couple thousand acres or whatever,
and they're keeping that part of it

vegetative so when they leave, our cow
herd can actually migrate over and they

will winter on what the yearlings were
able to keep vegetative and stockpile

a, at, at a little bit lesser density.

You know, their yearlings

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
not as many of them.

And so that's what we rely on then
for our winter stockpile grazing

is what the, what the yearlings can
generate in regrowth and stockpile.

And then, like I said, we, we actually
found it kind of a niche market

where we custom graze winter grazing
cattle on everything that we had

already, summer grazed and people

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: with.

People are like, I don't, I
don't want your old grass.

And now I've got guys calling going, Hey
can we, can we get some winter grass?

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

When do those yearling calves come,
heif, if you, you've got your heifers.

When do they come back to the
main herd, or when are they

assimilated into that main herd?

I,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So we,
we do things a lot different around here.

We, we don't wean, we,
okay, so we, June calf,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
we will wean the following April.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

11 months old

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: yep.

They, they run

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: or 10, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
grazing out with the cow all winter.

At that point when we wean, we will cut
the bull calves and so then the heifers

and those, then steers will get thrown
together into the yearlings bunch.

So they, because they're
basically fresh weaned calves,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
run together until about the middle

of August and then we'll pull the
heifers out of that bunch and throw

them back in the cow herd right
prior to throwing bulls in about the

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
18th of August.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So the
steers will finish out in a group of their

own, and they'll leave usually mid-October
is when we get, when we sell those steers,

I.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So the
heifers are back in the herd and

they're breeding with your main herd.

You're not doing anything special to get
those those heifers bred the first time.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

Yeah.

They they, they, yeah, they
just run like the cows do, you

know, and sometimes they don't I
shouldn't say sometimes they don't.

But like as rough as they're ran,
they don't always mature out as fast.

They're kind of slow
growth cattle, which grass

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
And so it's it's kind of interesting

watching that all unfold as
we kick 'em back into the.

the main herd and, and watch 'em breed.

You know, sometimes that heifer breed
up isn't the greatest, we've actually

found that if we will just keep the
top end of those that were open,

then we can run 'em another year.

It doesn't cost us anything to
run 'em, like it actually benefits

us to have those numbers then

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
let ' em grow out and mature.

Then they'll stay in the
cow herd for quite a while.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So, so you're
having some at 24 months, but there's

some, you'll keep the top end that
didn't breed at that point and they

can ke it three years and stay in.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right?

Yep.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

Yeah, I think, I think that's
an interesting discussion.

We had GBT on here and we were
talking about them and they were

gonna try some three year olds versus
two because they're doing some slow

growing or growing only on grass.

And I know for us here, sometimes we
have trouble getting those 15 month old

heifers big enough to breed on time.

And that breed up is not
as high as we'd like.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

And I don't know that it's so much
for us, a matter of size, because

we've had some really little heifers

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you know, they're breeding at

six, six and a half, and I mean,
they're maturing at thousand pounds

when they're a 5-year-old cow.

You

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
that's, that's pretty little you're,

when you're breeding up there, but
they'll breed up then It's just, I

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
just a matter of, I'm not

sure, maturity or something.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I, I don't know.

We, we had one year out of
one set of one, one bull.

We had used, we had a fair number,
we had a young bull with them.

We didn't think they would breed,
and we cave out a fair number of

heifers at 21 months and we're like,
we're having trouble getting this

group to breed at 15 to 16 months.

And here we've got this
group that's Kev at 21.

So.

We haven't necessarily been trying
to repeat that, but we've been

trying to get better on that U using
some of those genetics and stuff

because we're like, why did that
work then and not these other times.

It's one of those things when you
think you know best, you don't.

Now with your your forages, we talked
about the forages and forage changes.

One thing you've mentioned throughout
this, which I really love the

term, is insurance pastures.

So let's talk a little bit
about your insurance pastures.

Why do you call 'em that, and how much
of your ranch is the insurance pastures?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
So insurance pastures were a, a new

thing that we'd picked up from our,
from our conversation with Ian.

Because

we, well to, to be, I guess to begin with,
when we really wanted to step forward and,

and try to up the production on our ranch,
we had to know in our own minds that we

weren't shooting ourselves in the foot.

Like, what if this fails
miserably and I graze

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
of the ranch, and oh my

goodness, it does not recover.

Like, what

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
And so first idea came about when,

how do you, how do you effectively
double your stocking rate or know that

you can double your stocking rate?

You cut your ranch in half
and you take your same

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and you

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: sounds so simple.

When you, when you, sorry, Riki,
you cut your wrench in half.

That sounds so simple, but that's
not the immediate, you know, at first

you're like, well, what do I do?

But it's just so simple.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
yeah, it was like a light bulb moment.

Huge.

You know?

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
So then what's the other

half of your ranch become?

It becomes the insurance for, if you
screwed up so bad on this half of the

ranch, still have half of it available.

If you have to destock, great destock, but
you still have grass to go to or a pasture

that's gonna grow again next year, know,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
if you damaged it that bad.

And

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that's
where the insurance thing came from.

Well then we also knew that we
had two separate things that

we needed to keep separate.

And so we had our main cow herd
and we had our yearlings and so

we had to designate some grass.

both places.

So, you know, ended up at, there are some
times when we are literally grazing both

of those herds of cattle on half the ranch
and the other half is literally resting.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: if
we should happen to get a hailstorm

or a fire come through in the
middle of a grazing season, what?

We're pulling pastures out of insurance
like cattle, you're going here,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
longer available.

So it just, it opened up a
lot of opportunities for us

to do some different things.

thing with it, like last year, July
2nd, was the last measurable rain or

precipitation we got until November.

All that pastures that we had planned
in April saying, Hey, these are

all gonna be insurance pastures.

weren't afraid of not getting any more
moisture or the fact that it hadn't

rained because we knew were keeping
these as vegetative as we could, and we

had this stockpile already set aside.

So now like, yep, we're gonna kick
into an insurance pasture to let these

have, you know, 60 days rest and maybe
it'll rain in that amount of time

so we can get them to regenerate.

And so that's really how we use them.

And they truly are just that.

They're insurance against
poor, poorly placed bets.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

And do you, you are holding off of
grazing them during the growing season.

Is that the only time you're
holding off of them or do you,

you let 'em rest even longer?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That's
usually the only time we hold off of them.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
and they might only be insurance

for a part of the grazing season.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
You know, we may, we may plan on

using them and then in June we're
like, oh my goodness, we cannot

stay ahead of this grass growth.

And so then we start kicking more
pastures after we maybe grazed them

once, kicking them to insurance and
tightening up the area that we're grazing

to try to keep it vegetative and, and
high quality for as long as we can.

the other side is when you
pull 'em out of insurance.

So ideally we try to keep 'em in
there for a full grazing season

but it might be shorter or longer.

And then.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Then the other, the part is, is want

to come, and this is why we bring in
winter cattle, is we need cattle in

here to clean off all that stockpile
and trample it down and get it

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
and start building the, the soil.

Then, you know, we're armoring it with
all that forage that was still standing,

but we're also able to harvest so much of
it as well and capitalize on that extra

stream of income with those custom grazed
cattle without damaging our pastures.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I
don't know if I've heard the

term insurance pastures before.

I'm apt to, I don't know if Ian uses it.

I've heard him speak, but I don't know.

When you said it today,
I'm like, I love that name.

You know, it's a nice, easily identifiable
term for you're setting that pastor aside.

It's, it's in case we need it.

In fact, when I get off
here, I gotta talk to dad.

We're talking, we weren't gonna bail
any hay, but we've got lots of grass, so

we're thinking about bailing a little bit
of hay, but we're gonna start using that

term insurance pastures and those that
we stay off of just in case we need 'em.

I love that terminology.

So let's, let's, transition just
a little bit, Riki, and let's

talk about your school coming up.

You have a school coming
up, I should know.

I don't have it up on my screen, but

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
I believe

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407:
I believe it's in July

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
the 11th.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: There we go.

So tell us about your school.

Tell you.

Tell us what, well, first just tell
us about your school that's coming up.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Okay.

So yeah, it's July 7th through the 11th.

And what Justin and I have gone to
doing, I think we started this in

2020 after we wrapped our minds around
what Bob had taught us and everything,

and we saw the powerful effect of it.

We thought, you know what, we'll, we'll
branch out and offer it because we have

the opportunity to bring people here
and show them what a rebooted herd looks

like, what our grasses are looking like.

When you can look across the fence and
see a fence line difference, you kind of

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
oh my goodness, know, things

are different on this place.

Why are they different?

And so we give people then that
the hands-on teaching of all the

stockmanship techniques that are
required in rebooting the cow herd.

We go through the math of our planned
migratory grazing system so that people

understand how it ties into the IMG and
how this whole system, I mean, it, it

really is holistic, it all ties together.

To form what we have created
here and been able to do in, in

shrinking our animal units per acre.

So it's, it's a week long, it's intense.

When the class is full, then we're looking
at 10 to 12 hour days in the saddle just

to make sure everybody gets hands-on time.

The, the fewer class people that I
have in attendance, I mean three is

the minimum that I can have, five to
six is optimal because then we're,

you know, eight hours a day in the
saddle, everybody's got hands-on.

Everybody's been able to practice the
techniques and see how the herd is

affected and, and get 'em to move to you.

We actually ha I have some neighbors
that are allowing me to utilize their

cattle that are not rebooted hope

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: nice.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: attend
the school also to learn these techniques.

And so it's kind of like my little bribe.

They're like, Hey, I'll
teach ya, but I gotta use

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
don't know anything about this.

And so, you know, we work on fresh
cattle, we work on our cattle, our

yearlings, our pears, because every
animal class responds differently and

there's different cues and signals and
things that you have to pay attention

depending on the class of the animal
being lings, being cow calf pears that

are baby versus cow calf pears that are
three to four months old versus dry cows.

know, there's

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
bunch of different nuances there.

So we try to get a variety of, of cattle
that you're handling and things like that.

And we spend a week, ne, I mean my
cattle are rebooted, so we don't even

have to spend the week on my cattle.

That's why my neighbors are really
chomping at the bit for this is, they

get their cattle rebooted in that week.

I.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

So what does someone who, who's interested
in coming, what do they need to do?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
They need to have a horse and they

need to have the ability to ride
and, and get their horse to do some

basic horsemanship maneuvers and then
show up and be ready to camp out on

the Prairie and just enjoy Wyoming.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So, so
I'm understanding correctly they're

bringing their horse out there
and going through the course.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

They'd show up with their horse
and, and then we would just,

we'd go play Cowboy on the range

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh,

yes.

and

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: to
set it up because I know when we were

learning trying to get to seminars
and everything, it seemed like I.

You know, the, whatever venue was
hosting, they always wanted their

cut of people were bringing in.

And so, you know, they provided
your meals, but the meals

were gonna cost you $50 a day.

And I'm like,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: for
a lot less than $50 a day, you know,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
here's your hotel room, but it's 180

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Mm-hmm.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
And I'm like, know, the people

that are, that are truly need
this, isn't where their focus is.

And so I really try to do
it as bare bones as I can.

And, and I'll be upfront with you.

I'm like, you know what?

We're eating, you're
packing your own lunch.

So bring a cooler, I'll supply ice.

You're gonna bring your own lunch, you're
gonna cook your own meals at night over a

campfire or a grill or whatever you want.

You know, you're gonna
fix your own breakfast.

If you eat breakfast in the
morning, if you don't, great.

then, you know, like, you wanna sleep
in your horse trailer, you can't.

Or you have a tent or, or whatever.

Or Lus is 20 miles away.

Down a gravel county road.

So,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
if you wanna go stay in a motel

or hotel, I shouldn't say motel.

If, you know, if you, if you need a,
a bed and you, you know, you're just

not up for camping, the horses can
stay pinned out here at the ranch.

And then there are motels in Lusk,
there are restaurants available,

you know, so there is that also.

But really the aspect sometimes
I think the fun of it is when you

actually do get to come camp on the
range and be a part of the ranch.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I am not even
sure that's not a tourist opportunity

right there just to let 'em for a week
cowboy with you and camp out on the range.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

I'm probably missing something
there in agritourism.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

That's what I'm thinking.

I'm thinking that sounds fun for a
couple days then I'd have to recoup

because I'm pretty sure I can't sleep
on the ground that long, but, you know.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
And you know, it's amazing.

I never gave it a thought when, when
we first started this, we were day

working a lot and 10, 12 hours in
the saddle was no big deal for us.

You know?

And,

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
are like, yeah, I ride all the time.

And then they'd show up and, and by day
three you're really starting to feel it.

And I feel it now that I've gone back to
teaching and I'm like, Ooh, is a little

rough, this many hours in the saddle.

yeah, you want, you want a
taste of true cowboy life.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

I, I think so.

Yeah.

It wouldn't, it wouldn't take too long.

Is there anything else you'd like to share
about your school coming up or about your

operation before we move to Famous four?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: And I
think we've covered, covered a lot of it.

I just, know, if you're, if you've
got brittle, brittle, arid country

and you're trying to find that.

way to get over the hump on this deal
it really is worth looking into and

investigating a little bit further.

And if you're a horse oriented
outfit, it's a, it's a great fit.

It's, you're not babysitting your cows.

You reboot ' em and you ride away and, and
they do their own thing for however long

they're supposed to be in that pasture.

So that's, you know, I, I just try to
get 'em people as much information as I

can through our school, not only with the
IMG stuff, but with the planned migratory

grazing as well, and just all the pieces
that I have gathered up over the last

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Now, I try to teach, I just try to

convey to people and, and pass on my
knowledge, and that's really what I'm

after, is just passing the knowledge on.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

I, I think it's a wonderful thing.

I, I hope you have lots of
people and y'all have to spend

too long in the saddle each day.

Moving to our famous four questions,

Speaker 3: Today's Famous Four questions
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And to be honest, the behind
the scenes and access to other

things we're working on here has
not been very good in the past.

I have a couple things in the works.

And hopefully those will be out
soon and our insiders will reap

the benefits from that first.

But insiders, I appreciate
you supporting the podcast and

helping us keep this going.

If you'd like to be an insider,
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It has it there and you can join and
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I appreciate each and
every one of our insiders.

Thank you.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: same four
questions we ask of all of our guests.

Our first question, what's your favorite
grazing grass related book or resource?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Oh

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I know you're
starting to say Bob Kinford, he's got

a lot of stories, but let's go beyond

Bob.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
no, I, I'll definitely

probably have to go beyond Bob.

So it's been a while since I've read.

I'm trying to think.

Actually, we started on a
lot of Jim Gareth's stuff and

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
of key pieces to that.

I like listening to Ian
Mitchell Enni and his ideas.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
walt Davis had a lot of key

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
pieces of information there too.

I, I really, I

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
reading his books and the, and

the little tidbits of knowledge
that, that he puts out there too.

I'm trying to think, who
did Knowledge Rich Ranching?

That one was a

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: All

Nation.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That
one was, you know, it was early on in,

in oh 8, 0 9 probably when I read it.

And it kind of snap started snapping
some pieces into place for us too,

or, or at least verifying that we
were on a path of some sort that

somebody had traveled with success.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

All those people you, you mentioned are
great resources on Ian Mitchell Enus.

Do you know where, does he have any video?

I know he is, got a few videos online.

Is there anything online that you,
that you really point to with his

stuff, or is it more in person?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
I could say it's more in person.

I did run across and I haven't had a
chance to, to fully watch it, but just

recently did an interview with him

and I'm trying to think who that was.

I found it on YouTube and I started
listening to it Justin and I were, we

were getting ready or something to go
somewhere and I just kicked it on and

they'd just gotten to the point of
talking about some of the stuff that was

really mind blowing to us at the time and

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: a road.

And I'm like, that's the stuff.

And he is like, yeah, it is.

And then we had to go and lost service.

And so I

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
I do know that there is that

video out there that was had.

And I like say, for the life of me,
I can't think of the name of it.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, I'll
have to look and see if I can find it.

Our second question, what's your
favorite tool for the ranch?

I, I thought it might be your horse.

He, how many horses do you
have that you ride regularly?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Let's see,

I have two.

Justin has two.

Royal has one, and then we got
a bunch of colts kinda coming

up that shift in and out of our

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: But
we, we each have two main go-to horses.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Two regulars.

Yeah.

Right.

During, during your school, will you use
those interchangeably, or in your mind,

are those horses interchangeable with
your herding, with your stockmanship?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
They really are.

We, we found early on that even like.

We can take a, a very green cult, a cult
with not much experience and not, not

very much as far as a handle on 'em,
still be able to shape them up and get

a, the response we need from our, our

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you know, it, it's not uncommon

for us then to go ahead and ride
a green horse at our school.

Like day one, I'll probably be on a solid
horse and so I can show the techniques

and I can make sure they're all right.

But then from that point forward,
I may jump onto a green one

and be like, well, here we go.

Now we're on a young horse.

You can see how they handle and

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh

yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
what, this is what it's going to be

like for you when you go home and
your horse, you know, is fresh or

new, or you step on a different horse
that hasn't been to five days of

the school and different things like

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Which, which
I think is really beneficial for

people learning to see, hey, your
horse doesn't have to be a veteran

with this to be able to do this.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

The, the

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
certainly are fun and they, they allow

you to get a little bit lazy because the

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
it doesn't take long and

the horse figures it out.

Like, I have one little marere
and you'll be riding along and

you'll be kinda watching up there.

And she's watching behind her, you
know, she's watching everywhere where

you might be focused on one thing and
all of a sudden if you're not, like,

if you're not paying attention, she'll
just stop in reverse and like just

turn and then you'll look like, oh
yeah, the cow stopped and she's already

pulling cows back past her on her own.

I'm

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Glad you're here.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Yeah, yeah.

I'm

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
I'm here.

You got this.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I should
have just sent you out here to do it.

Yeah.

Our third question, what
would you tell someone?

Just getting started?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Learn.

Learn as much as you can.

And.

Learn from as many people as you can,
because even if you only took one thing

away from every individual you ever
encountered, your toolbox is overflowing.

You know, lifelong learning is, is huge.

And even, you know, we talked earlier
in the episode about being humbled by

Mother Nature, but yet those lessons we're
still learning because sometimes when

you're on the forefront of things and you
know technique, yeah, it's been proven,

but it's still pretty experimental.

Like that's the phase
that I feel like we're in.

Like we're experimenting with this.

How far can we push this?

What can we do?

there's nobody out there laying
the path for us, but yet we're

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
as we go.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

Excellent advice there.

Yeah.

If, if, and, and I think, and
I apply it to myself, if I can

take one thing from every episode
that I've done on the podcast, I

ought to be much better than I am.

I guess I'm just a little slow.

I'll work on that.

Our last question of our famous four,
how can others find out more about you?

And the course.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So Bob
Fer does have a migratory grazing website.

There's a lot of information there.

It's, it's kind of abstract because
it's such an abstract topic.

Like it's, there's not gonna be a
lot of information told to you on

how to do it, but there is some
information out there on what it is.

I, I don't have a website personally.

I kinda utilize Facebook a little bit.

There is a little bit
out there on YouTube.

If you, if you searched
up my name, Riki Kramer's.

There's some different stockmanship
things that we've done, some drone

videos that we've done of our herd.

If, if that interests you and, and
what our herd is doing and those little

clips that I've put out, then, you
know, feel free to reach out to me.

Facebook message me just figure
out how to get ahold of me.

I guess.

I, it's not that hard.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

You know, Facebook works for so
many people and then obviously

they could email you as

well.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

And as the last of the famous four, but
we got one more question to wrap up.

Do you have a question for me?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Do I have a question for you?

Do you, do you intend to
keep doing these podcasts?

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I, I,
I plan on not stopping because

they are so beneficial for me.

This IMG I'm not going to do it here.

My environment's different.

We don't use horses.

It's not something I think
would benefit me here.

But did I gain something from the
conversation I did besides just the, the.

The getting to network with someone
and learning about your operation.

But, and I mentioned this, this
insurance pastures, I love that term.

I love the idea of it.

I'm going to run with that.

Um, so just picking up something from
each episode, and I mentioned this an

episode or two ago, that, you know, when
you go to conferences, you come back,

you're kind of energized people that's
going and go to your school, they're

gonna get home, they're gonna be excited.

Well, we don't all have the opportunity
to go to conferences every time we

need a shot of motivation, but these
podcasts can be that, and me having these

opportunities to talk to people that's in
the trenches doing it they just energize

me and motivate me to do a better job.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
Absolutely.

I'm glad to hear

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So,

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
you're so right.

Like, you know, just, just, you know,
use the insurance pasture idea there.

That, and that just those
little tidbits sometimes

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that
somebody needs on getting them over

that hump and, and down the next path.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I, I so agree.

Just to continue on that, if we look at
someone where they are and we think, how

do we get there, that's too big a leap.

If, if yourself in 2002 or 2007
looked at where you are right now,

you might say, we'll never get there.

But by taking these little steps,
these little tidbits from everyone,

you're going to eventually get there.

But you gotta be careful not to
think, oh, I gotta make that huge

leap today because that's daunting
and will cause us to give up too soon.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That's,
that's one thing that we've done is,

and I, I provide it to our, my students
when they come to the school, is a book

that we've put together, not only on
the, on the stockmanship techniques

and the grazing plans and everything,
but it also outlines our journey.

And that you see that we went
from two pounds ahead of a cake

down to a half a pound a day,
and just those little incremental

changes that we made over time.

And finally it got to the point where
we could totally change directions

in a positive way, you know, the

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
wanted to go.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah, yeah.

That's excellent.

Riki, really

Appreciate,

you coming on and sharing with us.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407:
it's been great.

I Thanks, I thank you
for the opportunity, Cal.

This is our second episode we've had
about instinctive migratory grazing.

Bob Kin Ford was on here, and I
should have looked up that episode

number I'm thinking in the nineties.

I'll put a link to it in the show
notes, but really excited to have Riki

on to share about their operation.

You know, when I first hear about it.

I'm like, does this really work?

Is it a valid program?

But based upon talking to, to Riki and
talking to Bob and seeing the numbers

that Riki shared with us, as well as
she sent me another um, file with more

information, it does look like it works.

She has greatly improved
her stocking rate.

How many or carrying capacity?

So if you are running animals.

And you use horses with them and
you are a bigger area thinking, I

don't know about this electric fence.

This may be the thing you're looking for.

So I encourage you to check
out her school, look into more

information at Bob's website.

I think it's all very interesting.

Now, my biggest takeaway though.

Is the insurance pastures.

And I'm sure you, you knew that
from my conversation with Riki.

Um, I love that idea.

I love the terminology insurance pastor.

Um, in fact, I told Riki after
the, or at the end of the

conversation, I'm gonna start using
it and I have talking to my dad.

We've got some pastures that we've
identified as insurance pastures.

We're not going to touch
'em unless we have to.

And if, if we don't touch 'em, then
we're gonna have old growth there,

then we can decide what to do later on.

But the last few falls
have been really dry.

We fed way too much hay last fall.

So hopefully these insurance
pastures will help in that way.

Um, I, I'm curious what you
think about insurance pastures.

Are you doing that?

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