Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Cherrie,
to get started today, we'll start

with the fast five and the first
question is, what's your name?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
My name is Cherrie Nolden.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
What's your farm's name,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Our farm is Wonder Acres Farm.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and where are you located?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
We are in Dodgeville, Wisconsin,

which is southwest Wisconsin.

Halfway between Dubuque and Madison.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: And the
interesting thing about being in

Wisconsin, don't think we're gonna
talk about any dairy animals today.

Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: No.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: And what
livestock species do you graze?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
We currently have, small draft

horses, fairly large flock of sheep
and a fairly large herd of goats.

And we use livestock guardian
dogs to protect them.

And little like a 15 laying flock of hens.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, very good.

And what year did you
start grazing animals?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Well,
I started, poorly in 1991, so 34 years

ago, and started doing better in 2001.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
more rotational grazing and, putting

animals on the landscape rather than
maintaining them in lots and feeding them.

And, and only using the grass in
the, I don't know, two months that

it would grow when it got so beat up
with the confinement type approach.

I.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yes.

Yeah, so, so just a couple years.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Yeah, most of my life it's,

and learning all along the way.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based

livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve

the land animals and our lives.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,

challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from

their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.

Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.

This is the place for you.

Speaker 4: Calling our ranchers.

If you're looking to optimize your
grazing operation and boost your bottom

line, Noble Research Institute can
help the noble approach to education

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Now's the time to register for
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Visit noble.org

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For 10 seconds about the farm, I
have some disturbing news or it's

a little bit disturbing to me.

Last week on the podcast talked
about, I purchased some pigs

from Jared, which we appreciate.

My livestock guardian dogs have killed
some of my pigs, and when I say that,

I think there's only one culprit, one
dog in particular that's doing it.

I thought I'd introduced my dogs to them.

I thought it was going
to be okay and it wasn't.

I go in a little bit more depth
on it later in the episode when

I talk to Cherrie about it.

So what's your advice?

I will post the question in
the Grazing Grass community.

Let me know what you've done
when similar situations have

happened, or how do you solve this?

Moving on to the podcast, 10
seconds about the podcast.

The new website will be live this week.

Grazing Grass Resources, I'm planning
to announce it next week on the podcast.

So you didn't hear this part?

But I do plan on later this
week, uh, pushing out to

the Grazing Grass community.

Hey, the resources are alive.

Are alive.

Yeah, they're, they're live.

Go over there and submit resources
because this, this is only as

good as the community makes it.

It's a blank slate for us to
build a resource directory

that benefits all of us.

So those in the Grazing Grass community,
I'll push out something later this week

when it's ready, but I'm really close.

The website will be out pretty
soon too, so enough of all that.

Let's talk to Cherrie.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Cherrie,
growing up, did you think you

would be there grazing animals?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: No,
I I figured I would be a veterinarian

or a college professor or some, just
some employee working for some business.

I, I didn't expect to be a full-time
farmer and using adaptive grazing as,

as the primary income source for me.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I, I
think that's so interesting.

When I think about when I was going
to school, I had this dream to dairy,

but I never thought I could dairy
straight outta college because of money.

And then, you know, when you
dairy you can debate whether

you should go to college or not.

One side of grandparents was like college.

The other set was like,
go get some milk cows.

But so I was going to college with the
thought, well become a vet or do animal

biotechnology so I can teach at to
land grant university and do research.

Of course, you know how life happens.

My journey didn't even follow that at
all, but interesting overlap in in that.

So when you went to
college, what did you do?

What did you major in?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Initially I was on the track for as

an undergrad to head into veterinary,
pre pre-vet classes, and I, I shifted

to genetics partway through there.

And then as I was getting further into
that, I realized that the human end of

veterinary medicine was not suited for me.

And so I shifted away from that
and moved into wildlife ecology.

I.

Because I've, I've always really
enjoyed being outside nature space.

In four HI was involved in basically
any of the projects that were outside

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: so
I got a, a bachelor's degree in Wildlife

Ecology and did some postgraduate research
on predators of grassland birds and

chronic wasting disease transmission

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: And
that's, that's connected to the dairy side

of things because we were interested in
if these scavenging mammals are eating

on infected deer carcasses, are they
then spreading CWD to the dairy Mao hay

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
that are fed to dairy cows.

And is that a potential for BSE
getting into, this part of the world?

So then I did I moved to Kansas and
worked in farm policy and conservation

programs in Kansas and moved back to
Wisconsin and got a master's degree

in Agri Ecology and nearly finished
a PhD in Animal and Dairy Sciences.

The Agro Ecology Project was,
using goats for brush control

in an oak sanna restoration.

I used my own goats for that work.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and then my research for my doctorate

work was a new immune based treatment
for grazing livestock parasites.

So, using egg-based antibodies
to control gastrointestinal

parasites of, of cattle and goats.

And then, then I went to farming
full-time, and that's what I'm doing now.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Did, did
you finish your doctoral program?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I didn't, I, I got through the

dissertation stage and decided that I
should not be going in that direction.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I didn't
make it quite to the dissertation.

I

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: I,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: made it
partway through my doctoral program,

but I was more in education and
technology and the overlap and how

that affects student academic growth.

But then I decided that wasn't
what I really needed to do, even

though I spent all that money.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right.

And time, I mean,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: And time.

Yeah.

Yeah, because I was looking at the time
it was going to take to complete this

and whether or not it was really gonna
be beneficial financially for one,

is that really what I wanted to do?

And yeah.

So I'm part way through my
doctoral program, not finished.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

Same here.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: So you
mentioned there some of the research

you did were with your own animals.

So where in your journey did you
start getting your own animals?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
When I was a, a kid, we had a FA

hobby farm in Stoughton, Wisconsin.

It was a small five acre farm and four H
animals was basically what we had there.

And it was, I didn't have goats
or cattle or sheep back then.

It was all cats,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Animals for projects.

And then we had a few horses
in the backyard basically.

It was overstocked and poorly managed.

And then I moved basically next door
and added 10 acres to that five acres

and started rotationally grazing there
with broilers and selling chickens

to a, a French restaurant in Madison.

And, I really was doing a
lot of intensive rotational

grazing of, of poultry for that.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
grass fed chickens or range,

range raised chickens.

that's when I got the livestock guard
dogs too, because I lost that contract,

because aerial predators, I was able to
control the ground predators with fencing.

But the, the hawks during
the day and the owls at night

were killing all my chickens.

So,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: I
couldn't supply the restaurant because

I kept having so much death loss and the
migratory bird treaty and, and everything,

you can't shoot those predators.

So we needed guardian dogs to keep them
away and that was the solution there.

But I was also rotationally grazing
the horses at that time and pasture

breeding them, keeping them in a herd.

And I.

That was long before I heard
anything about why we can't

rotationally graze horses.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: So
I was doing it just because I, it was

something I'd heard about and it seemed
like the thing that should be done and it

was improving the health of the animals
and the, the land and not producing

erosion and all the other problems.

So I was doing that and then I took
the horses with me to Kansas and

did rotational grazing on a mixed
grass prairie, dry, dry area, just

45 minutes north of the Oklahoma
border in south central Kansas.

So, got to experience different
soil types and climate and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Communities and managing

the animals there we were.

We also had a watershed dam on
the place, so, we would have.

From a tiny little pond up to
40, 50 acres of water when we'd

get a four inch rain down there.

So that was interesting
managing around that fluctuation

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Were you grazing on red dirt.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Yeah, it was, it was, we were

north of the Gyp hills, just

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
the, the top edge of the, the Gyp hills.

So we had a little bit of that
red dirt, but it wasn't, the

majority of the farm was loam a, a

Nice loam.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
it, it's crazy to me.

I'm in northeast Oklahoma,
so we have nice lo loam here.

You start heading west and it's amazing.

Before you know it, you're looking
around and it's red everywhere

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: that, that
clay, it, it's just amazing that

change and how drastic it happens.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yep.

And, and it was so invaded
with Cedars down there

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

I, I went to school at Oklahoma State,
so driving out to steel water and that's

kind of the red dirt really takes over
in that area music wise and for the soil.

And just the, the places here,
if you see land that's not being

taken care of, a few things happen.

It's honey locust taking it
over, or if it's close to some

homes, it may have braford Paris
that's decided to take it over.

But those are usually the invasive feces.

You see a little bit of
cedar, but not a lot.

You go two hours west of me still
water land there not managed, is

just covered in cedar and it just
takes over like nothing else.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yep.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
And that's, and that's when I got

the goats, when, when I was out

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Because I was like, well, I'm working

in conservation and, and all these
invasive species that I, I worked

on with prairie restoration up in
Wisconsin aren't that dissimilar

to the invasive species in Kansas.

And goats are just a
natural solution to that.

They love to eat that kind of stuff.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: I
added, added the goats to the the herd.

At that time I had had sheep back
in Wisconsin and then sold them and

moved to Kansas and was sheep list
for a few years, but then got sheep

again shortly after we got the goats.

And just been using them for weed
management and brush management

in the rotational grazing system
as a multi-species system.

And then when I moved to, I moved
back to Wisconsin from Kansas.

I, I moved to a farm that was
on sand, 200 feet deep of sand.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: And
that was a challenge for throatiness

and during the middle of the summer
and maintaining forages and nutrient

cycling and that sort of thing.

And then now I'm on a farm in
Dodgeville that has loam and clay and

it's a really nice productive farm.

Although we only have 22 acres of
what I would consider good pasture

of the 130 acres that we own.

And the rest of it is woods or
degraded woodland that we're using.

The other species, the goats and
the sheep for brush management.

And kinda converting
that into an oak sanna.

And we just rotate the horses
on the good pasture, the 22

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

Yeah.

So with your, you mentioned
that's just a small portion

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Hmm,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: of
your overall land base, and we

wanna talk more about horses.

But before we get to your horses,
let's talk about what you're

doing with your sheep and goats
on that Savannah target land.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: sure.

Yeah.

So the, I've done something
kind of unconventional.

My, my prior education and experience
with managing goats and sheep

was rotational grazing, like, is
typical and typically recommended.

During that was what we used too
for my master's research was testing

the intensity of the, the rotation
for the ability to reduce the shrub

layer in an oak Savannah restoration.

And then we, I moved to this farm and I.

We did a forestry thinning on
a degraded woodland that had an

understory of multi flora rose and
prickly ash, and a honeysuckle,

a buckhorn brambles of all types.

And those, all those species just exploded
when we did the forestry thinning.

And the forest was, that
area was an oak savanna.

In the past there are some open
grown oaks choked out in the

middle of the forest grown trees.

So we thinned it to a 10 to 20% canopy.

And then, um, we didn't grind
the stumps or dig the stumps

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
grind the tops.

All that slashed we just
left in the, in sight.

We put a perimeter fence up of woven
wire at the high tensile top and,

for of 30 acres of the, 80 that we
bought specifically for this project.

And then, turn the goats in there.

And we did set stock with the goats.

So for the last five years, we set stocked
between 150 and 200 goats per year in that

30 acres and just let 'em eat the brush.

And now the brush is mostly gone.

And because goats don't like to eat Forbes
and grasses that are close to the ground,

they allow, they basically overgrazed
the invasive species and encouraged

the grass and the Forbes to grow.

And so then we've been increasing
the sheep numbers as the goats have

converted that to that brushing cover
to a forb and grass dominated cover.

And now we have enough clearance that
we are putting cross fences in and

we can rotationally graze the sheep
with some goats still in there to

control the ever present and ever
trying to grow invasive woodies.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

With, with your goats and grazing
them, they're, they have access

to a large amount of brows,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Mm-hmm.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I'm assuming
parasite issues weren't a major concern.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
They actually were, and that's part

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: were they?

Okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
We have, we have a huge population

of basically all the different
species of parasites up here in the,

the sheep and goats that we have.

And I actually used those
for my doctoral research.

I, I used, I collected manure from our
goats to infect the goats in the lab

and in my research, a cobra culture and,
and the, we identified all the different

species of parasites that were out there.

And the, the manure was
so loaded with parasites.

It was easy to produce the
cobra culture amount that was

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
orally inoculating our, our goats

to test the antibody treatment.

So anyway, it was we have lots of
parasites and my approach to dealing with

that was genetic selection rather than
throwing inputs at it or trying to manage

to prevent them from ex getting exposed.

And

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
my I learned during my doctorate with

doing the, the parasite research that.

Parasites actually have kind of a
symbiotic relationship with the host.

And they, a low level of parasite
infection helps improve the

immune function of the host.

And they don't have autoimmune or
allergy issues when they have a

little bit of a parasite level that
is moderating that immune response.

So, at low levels they can be
useful, at high levels, they can

be economically damaging, and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
to avoid that.

But I've found that the easiest way
to avoid that is select the genetics

that don't need to be dewormed.

So we don't deworm our
goats and sheep anymore.

They don't need it.

And anything that would
need it, it gets called.

so we've, we're at a point where we bring
in new stock to test them and as po as

potential breeding stock for our animals.

And, We put 'em out in our pastures
and most of them don't, most of them

get so heavily parasitized that we
call 'em before they're, they ever

make it into the breeding population.

And that just goes to show that
we've a lot of progress with the

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
have in terms of being naturally,

to the effects of the parasites.

So just, it's great to not have to do any
deworming and have the animals thrive and

be reproductively successful and all that

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

When you, when you first started
with your goats and sheep there, did

you target specific breeds or did
you target looking for animals from

breeders who had practices like you?

Or did you go to a cell
barn and pick up animals?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
So the first ones I got were

from Kansas for the goats.

Sheep I bought all over the place.

I started with Dopers from Wisconsin
and had some poly pays and other mixes.

And then got San got belly
corsicans from Kansas.

And they're a horned hair sheep and
they were very parasite resistant.

But I was dumb and I retained the
best you who learned to jump my fences

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, no.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I didn't get rid of her

or put her somewhere else.

And so she taught everybody else.

So that whole flock had to go
to the sale barn because we

couldn't contain 'em anymore.

So then I bought a bunch of
breeds of sheep that came

from low maintenance places.

And the goats also were Kansas
source goats that came from low

maintenance type operations.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: by
that point, I had decided I don't care

about breed as long as it survives and
has, has good reproductive traits and

produces, raises its babies without
me needing to do stuff with it.

I'm going for that.

And it needs to have a, so we
sell, we sell at the sale barn.

We

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
sell to a restaurant or anything else,

so we're, we're targeting typically
the ethnic market and a, a fairly

medium to small size carcass is what
they're looking for most of the time.

So, that works great.

From a landscape.

Supported production system perspective.

Those animals grow without
grain or any inputs during the

summer, no treatments needed.

They're all mutts.

I mean, we have some purebreds in the,
in the flock, in the herd, but they're,

the majority of 'em are just mixed breed.

Whatever has the traits that's
necessary to survive in a

low maintenance type system.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: It
sounds very much like last's

philosophy on hair coat color.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
You know, it doesn't matter.

My goal is this, and if the animal
meets the goal, weaning that offspring,

and I have pounds to sell each
year, then what's the other matter?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Now,
being a human, I have a little

bit of trouble with that.

I, I don't mind the color, I'm
very picky about the breeds

because I love breeds and I love.

Not mixing them.

And I say that my goats are a mutt
mix because I'm doing that on purpose

so that I can get some of those
animals, you know, work towards

that very low maintenance herd that
the parasite pressure's not bad on.

I mean, the, let's rephrase that.

Parasite pressure will be
there, but they can handle it.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right.

Yeah.

They can handle whatever
parasite level comes to them.

And I, I tried for a while
to have myotonic, I tried

like the TextMaster, which

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
like a, myotonic bore mix.

And Kiko mixes into that and Spanish.

And so the herd of goats now is
like every breed of meat goats with

a splash of dairy here and there.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and I was surprised, I mean, for the

research project, for the doctorate,
we were using dairy goats and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
surprised at the level of parasite

resistance that dairy goats actually have.

They don't

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
feed efficiency.

They don't maintain body condition
well in a browsing type situation,

but they, tend to have quite
surprisingly good parasite resistance.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: oh yes.

Yeah.

With your, your sheep and goats, you
mentioned doing set stocking with

your goats for a time, and now as
you have more grass and Forbes in

there, you're introducing more sheep.

What kind of fencing did
you use for your goats?

And as you move to that more
rotational grazing, what kind of

fencing are you using for that?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: So
when I started out with a small ruminants,

I only had woven, I only had electro
net and I used electro net for 10 years

without any perimeter fences year round.

And, I tried using like
the, the Gallagher speed

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: fence.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: fence.

That's it.

And they would, they would
just blast right through

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: so

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I'm, I told you
earlier, Cherrie, that I'm a slow learner.

I bought, I purchased two of those
things and they aren't cheap.

And I used one years ago and
it just didn't work for me.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Well,
it's been a number of years and I

guess I need my memory refreshed.

So I bought another one last
year just to use a little bit.

'cause I'm like, if it
worked, it'd be so great.

It doesn't work for me.

Maybe I'll remember it.

Won't buy the third one, but

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: We,
we have one old one that we keep lending

out to people if they, they're interested
in it because they're like, well, that

should be easier than the electro net.

And I said, well, here,
take it, use it, see

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: try it.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: They,
they come back and they're like, yeah,

we're gonna go with electro net instead.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
So we, I mean, people don't like

electro net, but it works, it

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: them.

We only use the 35 inch
tall stuff, and they

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: we,
we rarely have animals that jump over,

and if they do, they get called, and
then that takes care of the problem.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: And
other people will say, well, you just

need to make that smart fence hotter.

And we couldn't make it any hotter with
the, the energizers that we had back then.

Now we have an eight Juul energizer
with a solar panel that we move

around, and that was, that could
possibly make that fence hot enough.

But it sags and there aren't enough posts.

And our, our is very hilly and rocky.

And it's just, it's easier with
the electro nets for us to continue

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: then
eventually we got, we made enough money

that we could put a perimeter fence around
our sil pasture area, and that's woven

wire with two high tensile top wires.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

Yeah.

And are you using like four
by four woven wire field wire?

Are you using some of the goat wire?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
It's not goat wire.

It's I wanna say it's.

Maybe six by four.

Four by

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and the holes are actually too big

because the well they're nice because
the sheep stick their head through

and they keep the fence line clean,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
because the goats stick

their heads through.

And with their horns, we
don't dis butt anything.

They, they're too dumb.

And some of 'em just are constantly
getting their heads stuck.

So they

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

Those yearlings.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

Well, yearlings and occasionally have some
that have horns that go more back than

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and some of those will get

their heads stuck through there.

So the ones that that do that are
the ones that typically do it.

So we just, we tape a stupid
stick on their horns and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: their

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

I've, I've got one goat right now, J 10.

If I go out to the pastor, she's got
her head through something because

we've got some cattle panels and stuff.

And it's always her.

It's never anyone else.

I, I need to put a stupid stick on her.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah,
it makes life easier because you know

that there, there isn't going to be a
coyote or something that eats, or in the

time that you don't, you aren't checking.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yeah.

With the electro netting, when
I look at your photos, you

all have a lot of electro net.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Mm-hmm.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Is
it staying pretty stationary?

Would you consider it more of
a semi-permanent or are you

all moving it fairly often?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
We're moving it constantly.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
it, it gets grown in.

We don't have, there's a type of electro
net that's supposedly is designed be left

in place for the entire grazing season,
but if we leave it in place, the grass

around here grows taller than the fence.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
35 inches tall.

I mean, it's, it's a
shoulder height for me.

At the peak of growth during this
middle of the, the summer and.

There's no way we'd be able
to leave that electro net out

and it'd still be functional.

So we'd, at least in the pasture with the
horses, I'm constantly driving a line with

the A TV and putting the fence in the,
the tire track in one of the tire tracks,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
so that it doesn't get shorted

out by grass and pulling that
up after we rotate outta there.

And every rotation we have
a different size paddock,

different locations of paddocks.

There's no set the.

Layout, I would say,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
where we put the paddocks and it's

all based on what's growing, where and
where the next place is that we should

send the herd and big an area we need
to make based on what's there and how

much I want the them to eat of it.

And our herd, at least with
the horses, starts out with

2022 to 25 brood mares in May.

And then by the end of the season
there's 20 to 22 Foss to that.

And then there's a

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: too.

So it's an increasing number of, of
mouths to feed over the summer and it's

constantly changing where those fences go

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

With your, how do you know when
they're ready to move to the next

paddock or when you need to set up?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Yeah, it's based on how, how far I

want them to eat the grass down and
what's, what residual is left there.

And so I'm watching that as they're
eating it and I try to set up a

paddock that, will hold, will give
them enough food for one to three days.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I'm just constantly adjusting that and

move them as needed to the next area.

And it may not be the
next sequential area.

It might be some other area
that has better growth and

recovery from the prior grazing.

So, we're, we're always moving 'em
around and each year my map looks a

little different of, where we put them
and what the shape of the paddocks

were and sizes and everything.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: And you
bring up something very interesting

there, your map of what it looks like.

What kind recordkeeping are you you doing
as you rotationally graze your animals?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Mainly just writing down where the

fence lines were and what days we
turned in and turn and turned them out.

I haven't been keeping track of,
forage height or any of that.

That's just something I do as
I move them in and, and assess

it for when to move them out.

We did that when we had
a, we got an NRCS E Quip.

Cost share to put in the lane that we
have in the center of our grazing system.

And it's like a dairy lane,
a heavy use area, and then

a rotational grazing system.

We had to, had to do that for three
years even though I already knew how

to do that, that the program required
that you document how, how tall

things were when you turned it in, and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
it was when you moved them out

and all that sort of thing.

With a map to go along with that.

And so I continued the map, but I haven't
been doing the, the height documentation.

And I just, if, if the forage is producing
what it needs to produce to support

the herd, then I figure that's good.

And we, I initially didn't think that we'd
be able to have as many horses as we do

right now, but based on NRCS estimates
of forage yield and that sort of thing,

but in managing them on the land, we've
been able to increase the stocking rate.

And so that 22 acres is supporting
25, 26 horses all summer without any

supplemental hay or grain or any other,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yeah,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
inputs.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

And, and bringing up your horses.

Let's go ahead and shift to our
overgrazing section today, and

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cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: and
we're gonna talk about your horses

and managing grazing for them.

But before we get to the grazing,
are your horses, mutts, as

well as your goats and sheep?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
They're not, because I found a breed

that I could get enough, enough
good individuals that I didn't feel

like I needed to cross breeded.

So the, the Norwegian Fjord breed is
a small draft breed from Norway that

was developed on the really harsh poor
forage of the west coast of Norway.

And they were imported here in the
1930s, and imports have continued over

time, but they're a breed that has value
as a purebred and registered animal.

So them, I've only done purebred
registered fjords and haven't

needed because they're efficient.

They're, they're reproductively sound.

We have a hundred percent not
calving, but falling right.

And don't have health problems.

They're just to, to handle, manage
great in the grazing system.

I don't need to, to cross anything in, and
I don't need to look at any other breeds.

And sell pretty well too.

So

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: What
are, what are they used for?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
they're used for everything for riding,

driving, draft work, therapy, packing
people use 'em for hunting and packing.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah,
so people use them for trail riding to

dressage, jumping, fancy uses combined
driving events, that sort of thing.

So they're, they're
considered a versatile breed.

They're like the Morgan of Norway.

The, the Morgan is the, the American
version of the Norwegian Fjord.

Basically just a,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Medium to small size horse

that's versatile and athletic.

But good tempered and easy to manage.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: For
one, they are just so pretty.

And if you, in a little bit,
we'll talk about how people

can find out more about you.

They, they go to your
Facebook page for your horses.

It, it is just, it's always so pretty.

When you say small to medium size,
how many hands are you talking?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
So the breed standard is 13, two

hands up to about like 14, 2 14 3

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
And so you'll have some

that are smaller than that.

And we have one mare that's
almost 15 two hands, but that's

really big for the breed.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
they're everywhere from

800 pounds to 1500 pounds.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Oh, very interesting.

I, I think back to as a kid my
brother was more into horses.

I was not, I had a cattle of
the World Book, which listed

breeds upon breeds of cattle.

My brother had a horses of the
world book that listed horse breeds

which I, I thought was interesting.

I'd look at it once in a while
because I'm fascinated by breeds.

But that was my, my brother's deal.

We've always had a few horses
till the grandkids got old enough.

I say grandkids, my kids, my
parents', grandkids got old enough

that they weren't interested in it.

So currently we do not have any horses
on the place, and occasionally I think

I need a couple, then I think they
won't get used like they need used.

And I'll be back to the same
point I was before, but I enjoy

looking at those photos online.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Thanks.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: online.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Yeah, and they, the nice thing, another

thing that I like about the fjords
is that they, their training, so

they can be out to pasture for months
to years and you can just pull 'em

out and hitch 'em up and drive 'em

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
go ride or whatever, and they,

they remember their training.

So been very useful for us in that
sense to, to use 'em as we need 'em.

And I view them also as
our backup skid steer.

So if

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
snow that we can't move round bales

to feed the goats and the sheep I
have a bale mover that I had welded

up to be used with the horse.

And so with one horse, I can, I can take
round bales out to wherever we need to

place 'em for for feeding goats and sheep
and the horses themselves over winter.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Using
that horse-powered equipment

is so appealing to me.

I remember reading a book somewhere
about a community that just has horses

and use horsepower, and I think it's
so appealing, but then I remember I'm

lazy and that would be a lot of work.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: It is.

Yeah.

And, and there's not the
warmth of the cab, of the skid

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right?

Yes.

So when we talk about managing grazing
for them, it, experienced a lot of

managing grazing for sheep and goats.

How does grazing horses compare?

Is there things you have
to do different for them?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

So, I've also managed grass fed beef
and done leader followers systems with

the grassfed beef and done co grazing
with grass fed beef and goats and

sheep the breed of horse that I have.

Is more metabolically efficient than
grass genetics beef are, so they

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
quality forage than what the

grass genetics beef need in
order to not get too fat.

So that's the problem with most horses
and their management, is that people

them in a way that they're, they're
obese and then they have health problems

that are related to the obesity.

And of people feel that they can't
graze horses on what, if you look at my

pictures, looks like lush grasses because
they're afraid that they're founder and,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
is basically a insulin resistance

and response to too much energy into
their system from the grazing system.

And we avoid that by me basically just
applying everything that I had learned

in animal science and all of the, the
beef grazing podcasts that, basically

treating the horses like dry cows and,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
them, feeding them in a way that

they're not gonna get too fat.

So if they're too fat,
they're not gonna breed.

Same concept for the horses,
for the type we have now.

I listened to a podcast on a lady that
was managing bucking string horses.

And her, her experience was the
opposite, where those horses

have a higher quality forage need
than the grass fed beef that are

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: So
based on the breed and the type of horse

that you're talking about, they need, you
need to modify the forage quality that you

give them in the paddock, each new paddock
break to maintain their body condition

and not let them get too fat or too thin.

So it's just like, Managing the different
classes of beef animals or dairy animals.

They all have different nutritional
needs and you manage 'em and

the grass to meet those needs.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: So you talk about
managing those horses so they don't get.

Too much of that grass and the grazing lus
grass, you're giving them a smaller area.

So they're, they're actually you.

You could say they're running out of
forage almost because they're getting

all that they need before you move them.

Am I understanding that correctly?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
So we, we do, a typical approach that

I see in horse management, people
wanting to restrict or limit the

quantity of forage that the horses have.

My approach has always been, I
don't want to limit quantity.

I want them to eat as much as they want,
but I'm going to limit the quality.

I'm

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I'm going to reduce the quality by

letting those forages get more mature,
which reduces digestibility of those

forages and increases transit time.

The passage rate

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and so they can't.

Because the passage rate is slower,
they can't shove any more in, so their,

their total caloric intake for that
day is reduced simply because they're

consuming more lius forage than if
we put them on eight inch tall, very

lush pasture, which is what I see a
lot of people putting their horses on.

Or a mode pasture that has
just started regrowing again.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: and
all of that's like candy for a horse

versus me feeding broccoli to our horses.

In terms of the forage quality, I.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: So in early
spring, when you have everything's

lush growth, what are you doing
at that point to keep it from

being too high quality for him?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
We just turn out later.

We don't turn

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
the spring.

At the same time as, like we would
turn the sheep and goats out earlier,

then we would turn the horses out.

And we have areas that are where we just
graze horses and we use the sheep and

goats for weed and brush management.

Areas that we primarily use for goat
and, and sheep grazing in the sy pasture

mainly, but it's not usually until
mid-May that we're getting to four to

five leaf stage in our orchard grass.

And the stems are starting to elongate.

You have some flowering heads
kind starting to emerge.

That's the stage of maturity
that we turn the horses in.

And then we ro we rotate them through
first rotation pretty quickly.

And that kind of sets up a grazing
wedge that we can then use through

the rest of the summer rotating around
and waiting again for each rotation,

the recovery to get quite long.

And they aren't sending
up flowering stalks.

Most of the species of forages aren't
sending up flowering stalks later

in the season, but they are getting
more lignin as they get older,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and that that works to maintain

good body condition on our horses
and not let them get too fat.

And then the other important thing is we
don't restrict hay over winter either.

We, we, again, we make quality of hay
that would be dry cow hay, low quality

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
is lice and is not going

to make them too fat.

And our goal is if they did
gain too much over the summer,

especially at the end of the summer.

Then they go on to free choice,
low quality hay all winter.

And we are, we just keep food in front
of them 24 7 and they eat what they

need and if it's the right quality,
they will lose whatever extra fat they

got during the summer and be ready
to go grazing again in the spring.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

Yeah,

as you move your cat, move your cows.

Sorry, I'm used to talking
about cows too much.

As you move your horses what kinda
temporary fencing are you using or

do you have a lot of permanent fence?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
We only have perimeter,

perimeter permanent fence.

We use electro net on the
interior for our brake fences.

And the reason we use that instead of
using pigtail posts and single wire

is because we have mares with fos.

the,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
unlike cows, where the, the calf will

go under the fence and lay on the
other side, and the, the cow will

just stand there and baw for a baby.

The mares will run through the
fence to get to the baby or

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: So,
we've found that the electro net keeps

the folds in, which keeps the mares in.

so even though it's a little more work
for, for me to set up those electro

net breaks, I'll do that and they raise
their babies, they stay in the fences.

I can manage the forage quality.

And a healthy working system.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Are
you using a 35 inch, 36 inch

netting with your horses as well?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yep.

We use the exact same net for the
goats and the sheep and the horses

and the stallions respect that too.

I, I

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: they
really don't like being zapped, so if the

electric is strong enough they, and they
respect the fences, they will definitely

stay in even just 35 inch tall fences.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

you, you ever graze an area with all
your species or do you manage your

horses in one, one herd and then
your, your sheep and goats in a flock

and they don't ever intermingle, but
they may still graze the same area.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
So it's a mix.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
we'll have, the, the mares.

So we tend to keep the mares together
as a herd during the summer, and we

switch stallions out for breeding when
certain mares are coming into heat.

But then based on the paddock that
we're turning them into, we may turn

sheep or goats or sheep and goats
into that paddock to eat more of

the burdock and the thistle and the

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
And we have black locust suckers

that are coming up all the

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Mm-hmm.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
clone that we have.

And so we're just, we use the, the species
that we have based on what's in that

paddock and what we want them to eat.

Sometimes we'll let the horses go
through it first and then turn the,

the small ruminants in afterwards.

Sometimes we'll put the small
ruminants in first, like in the

fall after the burdock has set.

Of its burrs.

We'll send the sheep through
to pick up all the burrs, as

many as they can pick up first.

And then we send the horses through,
which reduces the amount of burrs

and the, the mains and tails of the,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: So what
I'm hearing is adaptive grazing

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: you're, you,
you're adjusting it to what's needed

in that particular paddock at that
time and what your goals are with it.

Yeah.

And, and one thing you brought up just
then was about sending the sheep to get

to get that you have some wool sheep too.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: And,
and I'm sorry I didn't even cover

that before and I knew you had
that, so that just triggered it.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
We have, we have hair sheep, we

have wool sheep, we have hair wool
crosses and don't know, there's.

Five or six breeds of sheep in that mix.

So, just like our goats, they're,
they're a mutt mix of anything

that has traits that survive.

And we have about 60 of 'em
that get shorn each spring.

But the rest of the 150
or so are hair sheep.

We prefer the hair.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

And we'll get back to the horses
and I'm sorry to go on this tangent,

but I was like, I didn't even ask
you about the wool sheep because

I thought that was interesting.

'cause most people don't have wool
sheep around here unless there's,

they're in the club lamb business.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yep.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I like the, the wool sheep because,

the, the ones that we brought
in were poly pe, Icelandic, and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Doll
and Shetland and tho the baby doll have

nice, meaty carcasses, I mean, for a

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: breed.

They're, they don't have too long legs
and they're just a little, little square

stool on on those little short legs.

And they make a nice broad back when
crossed with other breeds of sheep.

The Poly Pay and Icelandic
are very good maternal's.

They typically produce twins
and triplets and raise them.

So we've bred that into hair sheep
and tried to avoid hoof rod issues

by having minimal doper, in the mix.

Mostly cat and a little Saint
Croix for parasite resistance.

The Shetlands are, we probably are
gonna get rid of most of the Shetlands.

And they do, they have really
fine bone and they milk down hard.

They,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
as good a body condition, but

they're very good mothers and
they usually produce twins.

So, in the mix, they're good.

But the, the ones that are
pure are just very very thin.

And at the end of the grazing season after
they've weaned their kids, their lambs,

and there's just, we, yeah, we have a mutt
mix and some of 'em need hor every year.

And they're too good to, and
they contribute too many lambs

to us every year to cu them.

So

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
day we'll get to the point where we

get rid of most of the wool sheep, but
even the hair sheep will pick up burrs.

They just won't hold onto 'em as

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
sheep will.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

Now what?

What?

Yeah.

I don't know why I stuttered there.

One thing with the breeds, so you
mentioned baby dolls and I see their

pictures and they look like really nice
carcasses, but I can't tell their size.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
They're small.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: How
are they compared to your hair?

Sheep?

Are they smaller than your hair?

Sheep.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

So the baby dolls at
maturity are like 120 pounds.

The the

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and then the, the Cains and others

are more in the 150 to 180 pounds.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

So your cains compared to mine
are pretty good size because

mine aren't quite that big.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

And we have, and the St.

Croix is bring the size down too.

We, we

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: of St.

Croix in, when you breed a St.

Croix to a a Shetland, you get
a really tiny little thing.

when you, when you breed them to
the um, Katahdins and Dorper crosses

and things like that, then you
end up with something that's more

in the like 130 pound size range.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

Yeah.

Well, Cherrie, thank you for going
on back on that tangent on the sheep

when we to horses and listeners, thank
you for following my thought pattern.

Back to your horses, are there
anything that took you a little bit

to understand with your horses on
grazing versus the other species?

Any gotchas or anything you
would suggest to someone else?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: I
think the, the thing that I had to learn

was the perspectives of other people
and how to navigate the things that were

being told to other people about how,
how horses graze or shouldn't be grazed.

And me trying to figure out.

Where the disconnect was because
I had been doing the grazing and

hadn't run into these problems
that these people are talking

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
had to, I've had to back my way

through it to figure out why, why
am I not having health problems?

Why am I not having founder colic?

All of the, the issues that people claim
that horses will have when you manage

them out in the landscape to try and
communicate to people what it is I'm

doing and give them the information
that's actually useful rather than me

being like, well, I just graze 'em.

I mean, why can't you just graze yours?

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
So there weren't, I didn't feel

like I ran into any problems myself
other than, wading through, the

rhetoric that's out there and,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
trying to understand.

Other people's perspectives.

Like I, I frequently hear people
say, well, horses have two sets

of teeth and therefore they're
automatically harder on the vegetation

than cows or sheep or goats are.

And I was like, that doesn't really
make sense to me because it's

all about how you manage them.

If you, if you leave them in a
spot for a, if you leave any animal

in a spot for a long time, it's
going to be a golf course that

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
behind.

Our neighbors have dairy cows and their
farm is in some of those pastures where

they continuously graze is a golf course.

It's way shorter and the forage
productivity is, is, would take

three years before it would
get to the level of our farm.

And it's

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
simply because they over graze it

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
And it's not about the number of

teeth that the animal has, it's
about how you manage the animal.

horses can be managed to not over graze.

Pastures very easily.

You just move them more
frequently and watch what

they're consuming and move them.

If that species that they're
consuming that gets down short, move

them before they make it too short.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: So I see
these lots or these small pastures

with horses in 'em close to a house.

How would you suggest they
get started on managing their

grazing a little bit better?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Typically, So typically the most horse

properties are overstocked to begin with.

They often have a small acreage and
too many animals to be gra to graze

them all year round on growing forages.

They just don't have the land base.

There's the opposite where people
have a big, large pasture and they

have five horses out in 40 acres.

And they don't like that because they
can't easily go out and get their horse.

It, it's way it's lost in
the, in the weeds out back.

And so they want to keep them in a dry
lot up near the house or near a barn.

So it's easy to go get them.

And our system is different than that
because we installed a, a central,

graveled lane in the middle of our
pasture and all of our rotational grazing

paddocks or adaptive grazing, or whatever
you wanna call the term for what we're

doing they all connect to that lane.

And so we put something that's different
than what you would typically wanna

do with a cow sheep or goat operation.

We have the water tank up in the
lane and we have the mineral and

salt at the other end of the lane.

So it induces the horses to move and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
is a, is attached to that lane so they

can come up, drink, go get mineral
and salt, and go back out to graze.

And we want that.

We want them to move because that
helps with just physical health.

And I don't have to go out and exercise
all of our horses all the time.

But the other aspect of that is
a human can just walk down that

lane and into this small 0.6

acre paddock that we have almost
40 horses in and go grab whichever

horse you want and take it out and
use it and put it right back in.

So it's not difficult to go get
your horse out of that system.

And what I would say for people that are
considering shifting from a dry lot type

system to a rotational grazing system.

It's easy enough to break up paddocks
and there's lots of guidance and

stuff about that out there, but I
feel like the thing that is the, the

catch point for a lot of people is
they don't free feed their horses.

They feed them grain meals once
or twice a day, and they limit the

amount of forage that they have.

And so they're standing around with
nothing to eat for a large portion

of the day, the horses gorge.

Then when they do get access

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
ours don't gorge because they know that

they're never going to run outta pasture.

They don't gorge on hay because they
never run outta hay during the winter.

So shifting and transitioning the,
the herd to be able to consume

as much forage as they want.

Changes their metabolism from a
starvation mode to a maintenance mode,

and then they behave differently.

So making that change first, getting
them onto free choice forage, that

is of the quality that's necessary
to maintain the body condition for

that particular horse or horses.

Once they're doing that and they're
in a good healthy body condition,

then you can split up pastures and
start giving them one day's worth of

forage in a small area at a time, and
then them to a next one day's worth

of forage and leave that original.

Paddock that you put them in with
enough residual that those plants can

grow back again within the grazing
season to graze again, but don't

return until they've fully recovered.

And that's the main thing that I
think horse folks tend to not do.

They tend to leave them, if
they do have paddocks, they

maybe only have four instead

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right.

Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
They will leave them in there for two

weeks and then move them to the next
paddock and return in like 10 days

and the pasture hasn't recovered.

And then the horses are overgrazing the
particular plants that they like and

totally leaving the fescue and everything
else that they don't like alone.

And so you get uneven use of this,
of the stand and you get those un

palatable plants taking over weeds,
compaction all of the typical things

that you see in, hor horse pastures
that aren't managed very well.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Excellent advice there.

One thing I wanna jump back to is
your lane, and I, I just wanna talk

a few particulars about your lane.

What size gravel did you put on it?

Did you put geo textile
fabric underneath it?

how did y'all build the lean?

Because I, I know that's a really simple
question, but I also know some people get

hung up on, on like, well, how do I do it?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: right.

so we, we were installed
that per NRCS standards and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
it was part of an equip contract.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
followed the, the standard that

they require, which is, basically
taking the sod layer out.

I don't remember whether
a geotextile was put down.

We don't have enough clay up here,
and it's on the very top of the

hill to so we don't have quite as
big of an issue as a low clay farm

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
gravel sinking into the, the clay where

geotextile would definitely be needed,
but whether that's there or not, I

don't even remember, but it's large.

Gravel breaker rock.

And then I think.

Two other smaller grades of
gravel in layers above that all

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Capped with fines.

And the gravel that was

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
as Dometic limestone because

that's the that's the gravel
the bedrock that's around here.

And so, our horses have, and other
animals have access to a source of

calcium and magnesium just in the
fines that are on top of this lane as

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: very good.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
when we, we scrape manure

that would accumulate there.

So sometimes in spring, the fall and
really muddy times during the winter,

we will put their bales on that lane
and basically use it as a long, skinny

dry lot to feed them over winter when
the conditions are so bad that we

can't be out graz out bale grazing.

Really tearing up that
failed grazing area.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
scrape, we'll scrape that, wasted hay

and manure that accumulates there and
spread that on our, our hay fields.

And it's picking up when we're scraping
or it's picking up those fines.

And so we're putting calcium and
magnesium back out into the the hay

field plus all the nutrients that
were in that hay and the manure

and everything being recycled back.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Very good.

How, how wide is your lane

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
It's 20 feet.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: 20 feet?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yep.

20 feet wide and 1056 feet long.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
we, on the end of it so it ends where,

kind of in the center of the pasture.

And that is a high point.

And we didn't put an end on the lane.

It was just open and, we put the,
we started managing the horses

out there and used an area at
the end of the lane, during the,

whenever they were done grazing.

So in the morning they'll have a
grazing bout and then they'll go stand

together and digest, and then they'll
go back out and graze some more and,

and then come back and stand and digest.

They like it on the top
of the hill in the breeze.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
they would, they would cluster

together there swishing flies.

And we used the, the footprint of the
space that they chose to stand in as

their resting period to be the size and
shape of the the pad that we put there.

And then we put gates and,
and posts around that.

And that is kind of the sender spoke for
a lot of the grazing paddocks that go out.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: To
the rest of the pasture and it's just the

right size because they showed us through
their behavior what what they needed.

And we just made the fencing and
system set up to what they needed.

And by that point, we had about
the, the number of head that we

figured that the land could support.

So we didn't expect that it would
be changing much in the future.

And then we could have, then
we felt confident in installing

some permanent infrastructure.

And the, the lane has a few
gates in it and it's woven wire,

sides with high tensile top wire.

And that high

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
brings the electric out to

the center of the pasture.

So we can tie into that for
setting up the brake fences.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: First
off, I think that was wonderful.

You used the behavior of the animals
to figure out what you needed to to do

there as opposed to so often we decide
what we think they should do and say,

here now use what I built for you,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Right.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: than
listening to the animals on your lanes.

You mentioned a few gates.

How close are your gates together
and what's your gate material?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Well, the they're not frequent enough.

That

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
designed that before we really

were using it at the level

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: have.

And that's, that's something I
always recommend to people is

don't install something permanent
until you've used it for a while.

And

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
out what actually works and, and where

you do want permanent infrastructure.

But they're just pipe gates
that we close and we run an

electric in front of them so that

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
the horse, the horses rub on them

and they pick them up off the hinges.

And,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
but if, if something's

electrified, they leave it alone.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Mm-hmm.

Yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
works really well.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Very good.

Cherrie, I, I've really enjoyed
this conversation on horses.

Like I mentioned to you at the
beginning, it's not something we

talk a lot about, but I really think
we need to get the conversation

going further and it's going now.

Thank you for that.

Before we shift to the famous four
questions, is there anything else you

would like to add grazing management
for horses or anything else?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Think just having an open mind and,

and letting the animals help you
decide to use that land is important

because The horses like to be high in
the landscape like goats and sheep do.

Whereas the cattle like to be
low in the landscape when they're

resting, they want, they go down
into the ravines, into the trees.

The horses have access to the ravines
in the trees, but they choose to

go to the upper high parts in the
landscape and stand there in the

sun in the middle of summer and the,
the wind in the middle of winter.

So,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
it's by having the animals that you,

you wanna have on the, in the system
and watching their behavior, that can

help you a lot and designing things that
work for those animals in that system.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, very good.

Very good.

Cherrie, it is time for
our famous four questions.

Same four questions we
ask of all of our guests.

Our first question, what's your favorite
grazing grass related book or resource?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I think that's forages books that I

actually have on the shelf behind me.

I I have a lot of the the
grazing, like generalized type

books that, that are recommended.

And a lot of the ones that you've had
on the podcast are ones that I've,

I've ordered because I've not read
them before, but like these, these

forages and introduction to grassland
agriculture, volume one and volume two.

I like data and I like understanding.

the study design behind
what data is available.

And like these books because
they give me data and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: It's
not just anecdote or a random chart.

I can, I can go look up the, the
publication and see how the study was

designed and whether the conclusions were
reflective of what was actually designed.

And I found that having that kind of
information is useful for, applying.

What is typically designed
for cattle in terms of

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
grazing guidance and applying that

to horses and the different, just
understanding the differences between

the species and a highly metabolically
efficient horse versus a dairy cow

that needs much higher quality forages
and books like those really help me

out, they, they help me figure out
why what I was doing works for the

horses that I have, and so then able to
explain it to people so that they can

do the same thing with their animals.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, very good.

And what I took from that was you are a
person that loves footnotes and in notes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Yes, I.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I, I love picking
up a book that has those available.

Now I probably don't do a good enough
job following those two, really look

it up, but I love it when I see a
book that has their sources listed.

Why are you saying this?

Our, our second question.

What's your favorite tool for the farm?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I've thought about that.

And the thing that we use just about every
day during the summer is the skids or the

ATVs and hauling those nets everywhere.

And checking on animals
in the SIL pasture.

We could ride the horses out there and
I could rig up some pack saddles and,

and move everything around with them.

But the at TV really
makes it a lot easier.

But then really the reason that
been successful with the horses

and rotational grazing or adaptive
grazing managed grazing is having a.

Thinking mind, tinkering

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
tinkering with concepts and ideas

and figuring out how to make it all
work with the interconnectedness

of the system and the animals
and us and all of, all of that.

So, a mind that, can filter the
information that's out there and

apply it in a functional manner to
goals and objectives of the system.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, that is so
important, being observing, observant

and reflecting and thinking about it.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yep.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Excellent there.

For a third question, what
would you tell someone?

Just getting started?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
I would say especially related to

the horses don't listen to all of the
stuff out there of people that say

that you can't graze horses, you can.

And you just have to integrate the,
the behavior and function and metabolic

needs of the horses that you have.

Integrate that into the information
that's available for cattle and goats

and sheep and other species out there.

So use, use your head and don't, don't
just rely on, information from people

who say it can't be done because they
haven't figured out how to do it.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Excellent advice.

And lastly, where can others
find out more about you?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Sure.

We have a website that I've put
together wonder acres farm.com,

and I'm on Facebook for under my
name Cherrie Noden for the goat

and Sheep and Lifestyle Guard, dog
information, silver Pasture Details.

And then I have a Wonder Fjords,
space, DER Space, F-J-O-R-D-S

Facebook profile for the, the horse
related postings, because there's.

The, the horse people get tired
of seeing so much sheep and goat

and LGD stuff, and the, the small
ruminant folks are like, why are you

posting so many pictures of horses?

So, so I made a separate site for them or
separate Facebook profile for the horses.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
And, and here I am.

I'm following both of them, and I
encourage the listeners to do the same.

It'll be well worth their time.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Thanks.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah,
and I said lastly, but actually

we have one more question.

Do you have a question for me?

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

I mean, you, you interview so many
really amazing people and they have

so much, breadth and, and depth of
knowledge in so many areas, and they're

contributing all this in your recordings.

Are there, what, are there some of those
things that you feel like you got the

first row seat on and now you're, you're
using that on your own farm and making it.

Making your operation even better.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I.

To be honest, it's the whole
basis for the, the podcast.

I thought this gives me an opportunity
to talk to these, these people that if I

just called them up, like, who are you?

do you wanna talk?

Now I have a podcast.

I'm gonna be like, well, I have a
podcast and we wanna make episode.

They're like, oh, okay.

We'll talk.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: It has helped.

I, I can't even put into words how
much has helped my operation and the

reason, there's a few reasons for it.

One, I hear about these practices
that people are doing that I'm

like, oh wait, I need to try that.

Or, yeah, that makes sense that your
horses were getting over conditioned

and or had the potential, so you had to
graze them on some lower quality forages.

When I think back to our horses, we
did a very poor job of managing them.

But they would get fat

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: and, and
that was always an issue, so, so.

Bringing out things like that
because sometimes, even though I

like to think I'm observant, I like
to think I reflect upon things.

There's times that people point out
obvious things to me and I'm like,

wow, why didn't I think of that?

So I love those moments, but then,
so I, I get those practices and I get

to see how they work on my operation.

And sometimes it's practices,
sometimes it's mindset.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Sure.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: And then
the, the other thing that's really

important when you go to a conference
or kind of gathering and you talk to

people, even if you're an introvert,
you leave there energized, ready to go.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: it's just
you're getting information and

they're validating some things you're.

You've, your thought, you have thought
or you're doing, they're causing you

to think about some of your practices.

And some of them may be new, but you're,
you leave there energized and what

that does, that motivation when you
get home to do what you're doing or

to try something new is really high.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yes.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: only
lasts so long and sometimes we need

little shots of that motivation.

And I, I feel like this podcast is
little shots of motivation for me.

For when I have something.

I have a issue right now with a
livestock guardian dog that I'll probably

put at the first of this episode.

just got some pigs because it's gonna do
pastured pigs and my livestock guardian

dogs have killed three of the four.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Really?

Wow.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843:
And I introduced them.

even let 'em in the pen
with me so they knew.

this would be introduction.

I know one dog wanted to play a
little bit more and I got onto him.

I got him out I had a pig get
out and they attacked the pig.

And then I got that pig back in.

I got onto my dogs, I thought we're good.

And it's one dog in particular.

I don't notice my other dogs doing it.

Then the next morning I'm
missing a hog or a pig.

find it, it's been killed.

We went through that.

I thought we were in a good spot.

And I go out to my hog pen yesterday and
my dog is laying there with a dead pig.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: hmm.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: So I, I'm not, so
I've gotta figure out an answer for that.

But the reason I bring it up,
those things happen on a farm.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: They

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: not
always roses and everything nice.

And getting some motivation or extra
energy during those times is really good.

And I think listening to
podcasts provide that as well.

But I just happen to be the person that
gets to talk to them, talk to the guest,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: so,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
that, with that one LGD, you

can put a muzzle on him and,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
just, there are muzzles that are designed

with they're tall enough that the dog
can open its mouth and the holes are

big enough that they can get kibble
through the holes so they can drink and

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: I,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
with the, the muzzle on.

And our livestock guard dog
adults, we need the size six

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: And
so when we, when we have individuals

that we're changing things around
we have introduced pigs and the dogs

that we had at the time with that.

That attention from us and us
telling the dogs, no, these belong

here, you need to leave them alone.

That went just fine.

We didn't run into the

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yes.

Oh good.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
and we, we bought Weanling piglets and

raised them up with the goats and the
sheep and the dogs in there with them.

They, they, the pigs did eat
the chickens that were wandering

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
in there.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: yeah.

I'm sure they did.

Yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
And the dogs got mad when

the, when the pigs did that.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
the pigs were big enough that the dogs

really couldn't do anything to the pigs.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
for that one dog, if you put a muzzle

on him, maybe he will get to the
point where he accepts that they're

part of his guarding group, and the
other dogs don't need the muzzles.

And that way they can all stay
together and you won't have that

one injuring or killing piglets.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yeah.

I, I didn't even think about
a muzzle because I'm like,

what am I going to have to do?

try to actually have him up here.

I have the, the sheep and goats
not too far from him right

now, from the pigs right now.

And I try and have him up there when
I'm out there taking care of them.

So he sees I am, I'm
carrying for these animals.

That's your job too.

But thus far it hasn't worked, but

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
The other, the other thing that might,

you might run into is we've had where
we put a muzzle on one dog and the

other dogs sense that that dog is
frustrated with the muzzle and they

help the dog by chewing it off of them.

So you

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh,

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
to put muzzles on the other

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: oh, okay.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
chewing the muzzle off of the one

that actually needs the muzzle.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh, yes.

Oh, okay.

Good advice.

See.

Another benefit of the podcast.

Just, just these, these moments
to have these conversations.

And I think to go back to your
question just a little bit, I think

beekeeping organizations do a great
job of having local group meetings.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Sure.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: And I don't
think as grazers, there's, there's

pasture walks and different things out
there, but we aren't as good, or maybe

good's the wrong word, as diligent
as the beekeeping organizations.

And I've even talked to local grazers
here about us having a local grazing

group that meets once a month just go
out for supper so we can talk grazing.

But I haven't, I haven't took the
step to really get it started.

We've talked about it and we all think
it's a great idea, but we've yet to do it.

But just having those opportunities
to talk with others is so important.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843: Yeah.

And yeah, and like you said, these
these recordings and being able to

access them when you're out driving or,

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh yeah.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
something that you don't have to be real

focused on what you're doing so you can
listen, you that kind of community and

even though you're not meeting one-on-one.

And discussing things.

You're hearing new ideas that would be
similar to what you would talking with

your neighbors about what they're doing
and why they're doing what they're doing.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: right.

I agree.

Well, Cherrie really enjoyed having you
come on the podcast and share today.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Thanks.

Thanks for having me.

I'm glad to have the opportunity to
talk with you and hope that some of

this info is useful to your listeners.

cal_1_05-25-2025_090843: Oh,
I, I am confident it will be.

cherrie-nolden_1_05-25-2025_090843:
Thanks.

On Jen's podcast, Choosing to
Farm at the end of each episode or

interview, she kind of provides a
summary or what caught her attention.

I've thought for a long time we
needed that for the grazing grass.

The issue was just doing it, so we're
gonna try it today, see how it lands.

I really was excited to
get Cherrie on the podcast.

I'd reached out to her a year or two
ago, someone, one of the listeners had

suggested her because I'd mentioned
about finding someone grazing

horses in a regenative fashion.

A couple things I really
like about what she's doing.

One, she's taking a very
deliberate approach to how

she's managing her grazing.

She's being observant, she's reflecting
up on it and choosing the right grazing

management for what she's doing.

She's holding her horses in longer
so that the grass gets more mature.

Which, you know, I know in the
springtime of year, I just wanna

get animals out on grass or moving.

So that's, that's a great way to not
always just do what everyone's doing.

Hey, those ca those horses need a more
mature forage, so I'll just hold 'em up a

little bit longer and I can manage that.

The other thing, creating a lane.

I know in dairies, when you look at
New Zealand dairies, a lot of times

they have lanes that the cows go in and
out on using that concept for horses.

It is great.

I think for one, it gives you
nice access to your facilities.

And the other thing is she has
water at one end of, of the lane

and mineral salt at the other end.

So the horses are getting more exercise
plus she, plus she observed horses'

behavior and actually made an area
at the end of the lane that that's

where the horses kind of go and stand.

It's in a high spot.

She gave them plenty of room
for the number she has now.

Those are a couple things
that really stood out to me.

I hope you enjoyed it.

In fact, go over Grazing Grass
Community post what stood out to you

or what you got from this episode.

Look forward to seeing it.

Cal: Thank you for listening to this
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