Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: We will
get started with the fast five.

What's your name?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Nick Jackson and Sarah Mayhem.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458:
ANd what's your farm's name

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
We currently work for regen, LLC,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458:
and where are you located?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Healy, Kansas.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: And
that's a pretty recent move.

Where'd you move from?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
We moved from Central Maine,

a town called Atkinson, Maine.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458:
So quite a move there.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
It was,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

What livestock species do you graze?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Sheep and stockers cattle.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

And when did you start grazing animals?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
We started with chickens in like 2015

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Started with sheep in 2018.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, very good.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based

livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve

the land animals and our lives.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,

challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from

their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.

Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.

This is the place for you.

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cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: So let's
talk about your regenerative

journey just to get started.

When did you get interested in
regenerative ag and has ag always

been in your life, always been
something that's been important to you?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
It, I, I had always wanted to farm,

like from a pretty young age and
didn't quite know how to get into it.

I, it was like 2000, oh,
well, I don't remember.

I was about 30, so about 15 years ago I
started working at Vermont Compost Company

and at the same, the same week I started
working at Vermont Compost Company.

Started dating Sarah and I.

We were very interested in organic
agriculture and market gardening

at first was kind of where what
we being involved in potting soil

production and compost making.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
we thought we would do

market gardening for a while.

We had a small market garden
and was listening to different

podcasts about, you know, going
beyond organic and how you could be

organic and still be degenerative.

And then we started in probably
around 2013 or so, we started

hearing about regenerative ag stuff.

And and that's when, you know,
started dreaming of getting quitting

the job at Vermont Compost and
starting our own, our own farm.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Sarah has
Z always been a interest of yours.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Well, I grew up in the country mostly,

and definitely wanted to be, have
access to animals and things like that.

When I got older, in my twenties, I
worked at a biodynamic farm where we

milked cows and raised chickens, and
I was actually vegetarian at the time,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
being around animals and I don't

know, doing it myself, I felt really
good about starting to eat meat and

drink milk and all those things again.

And my, actually, my health
increased after doing that.

So I was very

grateful for my intuition, just
pushing me over the edge of like, oh,

I raised this chicken, we butchered it
ourselves and now we're going to eat it.

It's really a good process.

So, kind of coming full
circle on that and.

Just really appreciating all the
things I've learned with the little,

the little steps into agriculture.

But neither Nick nor I have a
farming ranching background.

So that's also a blessing and
a curse on its own because we

get to learn all fresh and teach
it to ourselves or find mentors.

But but we didn't come with
the innate skills of that.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

Or, or the paradigms that
you all have to shift.

So, you know, it's, we often
talk about our unfair advantage

or our unfair disadvantage.

We've all got 'em.

So I don't know which, depending
on the day you would put that as

a advantage and a different day.

You might put it as a disadvantage.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
right.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Early on, we were very interested in that

concept of our unfair advantage, and that
was part of what, like thinking about our

unfair advantages was what gave us the.

The courage to leave the job and try
to start our own, our own operation.

Yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yes.

When, when you all y'all were associated
with compost and working with that,

and you talked about your market
garden, you got started in that.

What caused you to make
that next step to livestock?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Well, we're very interested in soil

health and at the compost company
it was always like, well, you know,

you're, it was a lot of importation
of ingredients for making the compost.

And we noticed that all of the compost
was coming from conventional ag

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
To make an organic, a

certified organic potting mix.

So, you know, basically when we started
our own, we wanted to have more control

over the manure that we were gonna make
compost with for our market garden.

And, and we started thinking more
about, you know, using livestocks

livestock as a tool to improve soil.

And honestly, our focus went away
from the food production to the soil

rehabilitation and, and and building soil.

And I started listening to, you know,
stuff like Alan Savory and, and,

just, it broadened my perspective
from thinking about like doing, I

was very focused on like, oh, what's
the smallest market garden we could

have and be profitable and, you know,
pay ourselves to what's the largest

amount of acreage we could improve.

You know, it was

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And so, you know, trying to be part

of that bigger, that bigger goal of
not just making a living, but slowing

down desertification and, and, and
proving soils around the, you know, in

the biggest area we could conceive of.

So it was a, it was, you know, it took
a few years tr tra tradi transition.

I think at first Sarah was a little
more like you wanted to just do

like the small scale thing, and I
was like, no, we need to have like

a, you know, a thousand acre farm.

And, and but she, you know, I think
really, I mean at the same time he was

studying like soil health and stuff.

I was studying nutrition after
being, like I said, vegetarian

and then starting to eat meat
again and wanting to grow

the best meat that we could.

So we started getting into chickens
and pigs at least because you could,

because you could turn a profit.

Quickly on those, you know, a cow takes
a certain number of years to grow out.

It's a big investment.

And so how did we, we stepped up through
pigs and chickens and eggs and and then

lamb, because we could also buy those in,
in the spring and finish them in the fall.

So it was a, it was an
interesting journey.

We just kind of kept taking that
next step to, and then finally

getting beef into our operation.

Yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

And Sarah, you bring up
an important point there.

When we're thinking about profitability
and turning money over, chickens

have a much shorter timeframe for
that happening versus other species.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And that's, that's what we were doing

there in Maine was we started with
like a Joel model of like, give away

your first, like the first batch of
chickens, just give them away to people

that you think might be interested.

And very quickly we had, you know, we
sold out all of our chickens, so it was,

it was a pre pre-buy program where
people had to put up the money

up front, which gave us the, the
money to buy the chicks and all the

grain and to feed them and, right.

And I was, we were moving the chickens
every day in little chicken tractors.

And I was, you know, doing that
imagining, you know, someday these

will be cattle, this you'll be,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
not, not, not,

chickens.

And, and it's, it's cool 'cause it's
kind of come, it's come to that,

right?

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: yeah.

Very good.

Now I wanna dive a little bit into
that pre they've got pre-buy it,

so do you sell it to 'em based upon
the next batch of chickens you did.

And you hadn't ordered any
of your chicks at that point?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: So
I forget when we first started out, but by

the end we were doing like a January sale
if you bought in in January, which let us

make sure we could plan how many chickens.

I think actually the last time
we did the chickens, we, it was

like November, November, October.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yes.

It just keep, yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
because we won like, Hey, did

you like our chickens this year?

Do you wanna reinvest?

And I would send out an email.

Email, don't think we asked for money
in November, but we asked for people

to make a promise that they were
gonna buy chickens with us again,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, okay.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
in January.

And so that gave

us money to buy chicks, money to buy
grain money to live on, you know,

just, we didn't, we didn't have a
lot of money in November coming in,

so, or not November and January.

And so getting that influx of cash
and we weren't hard line like if.

You know, the people who could
pay in January paid and the

people who had to wait until May.

Right.

Waited until May.

And, and, you know, the money
would trickle in and we had

some money to, to live on right.

As

we got things going and we, you
always made sure we saved enough to

be able to buy the chicks and buy the
grain that we needed to buy and Yep.

And then we would often try to buy
extra with that money and then know

that that would turn a profit too.

Right.

So we took that as an investment,
that early stage money, and we would

invest in if we had an order for,
I don't know, 500 chickens, meat

birds, we would try to invest in
like 750 or a thousand, whatever we

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
do and pay for.

And then we knew that, like that early
bird sale we called, it was like, Hey,

you get a best, you get the best price,
you get 10% off or whatever because

you're giving us the money ahead of time.

But the

people who bought afterwards, if
they were on the wait list or they.

We needed to wait.

'cause we, we also know in farming, you,
you have livestock, you have dead stock.

There could be a predator attack.

We needed to buy more than what we buffer.

Yeah.

We

needed to buy more than
what we were running.

Yeah.

So, sometimes we had grow out
problems because the grain changed

where they were getting it from.

And it, it was not, it would
not describe it as easy.

Like some years the chickens just it,
and we, I don't think we ever figured out

why, but the chickens just didn't size up.

Right.

And so we

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
even though, you know, we had

promised only to give a certain
amount of chickens, we would just

that because we had told them they'd
be a five pound average or whatever,

we would give them extra chickens
because they were smaller than than

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah, yeah,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: And
people never have really had a problem.

They were always appreciative and they,
you know, for the most part, we had a

pretty high customer retention rate.

So we switched that also as we
learned more things and we tried to

make the customers happy, like no
matter what, it was our goal to feed

nourishing food and do that thing,

but we would go from 10 chickens,
so you could, you could sign up

for 10 chickens or 20 chickens if
you wanted to fill your freezers.

But then we changed that to
poundage, like if it was like 500

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
because then it just made it easier.

Like then we could, right then, then
if we had a problem with the growth

grow out on the chickens, we could
just be like, okay, you're gonna get a

hundred pounds of chicken, whether it's,
you know, 25 pounders or, you know,

whatever, 25 four pounders or whatever.

Right, right.

So,

Yeah, and then we, we switched to, we,
well we, we include, we started including

lamb and basically did a similar process.

The first year we sold whole carcass
lamb or like the, the customer bought

paid by the pound, by the hanging weight.

And we, you know, I think by the
second year we realized that was

too cumbersome for our customers
and, and for us to, to think about

and to advertise to market that.

So we switched to lamb boxes with
a, with a cut, with a, with a

selection of different cuts and
with a little bit of optimization.

But by the end, I think
we went towards like.

Minimal optimization.

It was just like you had like two choices.

Yeah.

You could

choose your like roasts and stew box
or you could choose your steak box.

Like, and then we would just cut all
the lamb into like shoulder steaks and

leg steaks and, and then people would
often buy like two roasting boxes and

one steak box and they would be totally
content with, they were, and they were

about the, each box was the equivalent
of about half of a kain lamb grow.

It

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
17 and a half pounds is what

we figure a half a kain is.

And we, you know, there was usually if
we did a, if it was a good year, the

carcas sizes would be a little extra.

So we'd have like, we could.

The customer would get everything
they paid for and we'd be able to

retain a little bit more from each
of those carcasses that that kind

of the above and beyond that gave
us product to sell, you know, off

the website for retail
cuts and, and, whatnot.

Yep.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Two, two things
there that really stand out to me.

I love the, the pre-selling of chickens.

E even as well as lamps, because when
you're trying to get started, money

flow or cash flow is always an issue.

So if you can afford to grow some, so you
have that proof of concept, or at least

it's the way I categorize it in my mind,
and you get some of those chickens out,

then you can sell some, then you get the
capital needed to grow that first batch

and, and kind of the same way with lamps.

The second thing I, that really stands
out to me is making that process easier

for the end user, for the consumer,
because I see so many people selling

beef and if it's working for you,
how you're selling them, go for it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't
be doing it that way.

But it looks kind of com complicated.

Well, I'm, you're gonna pay X
amount per pound of hanging weight.

Then you gotta explain what hanging weight

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Right,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: or, or
you can say, well, it'll be so

and so, price per life weight.

You still gotta explain it.

Instead of you can say, here's
our price and here's what

you should get approximately.

You know, this is ag, so the
product's going to be variable.

Things do happen, but we'll
try and get you in there close.

I just think it makes it so much
easier for a consumer that's moved

further and further away from the farm.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: And
when you're trying to budget your money

as a consumer, I just recently
bought a whole beef and it was

excellent, but it was about
$800 more than I had planned for,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
you know, that buffer of like, oh wow,

okay, it's $2,000 or it's $3,000, and
you're trying to just budget yourself

as you go and you're like, oh wait,
that was that at first year doing lamb?

That's what the problem was, right?

Because the lambs turned out
huge compared to what we were

telling people they were gonna

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And then they were like,

oh, we still owe you $300.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Right?

Yeah,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

We're

like, yeah,

sorry.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
decided to turn that problem into a

solution, saying, okay, you, you know
what you wanna buy, you buy as many boxes

as you want, we'll sign you up for 'em.

And then if there's any excess,
we just turn those into cuts

and we sold them on our website.

Yeah.

Or,

or into more boxes.

Yeah.

Right,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

And you, you all bring up an excellent
point about your budget and you know,

because we're working from a budget and
if it goes too beyond our budget, I have

to reach somewhere else to get that money.

Yeah.

You want them to be able to plan
for it and really be successful

with that transaction, as well
as providing a quality product.

Yeah.

Now, in Maine, Maine is one of the
states that we don't have any guests

from on the Grazing Grass Podcast.

And in fact, I reached out to you
because you all were in Maine, and then

come find out, oh, you're in Kansas.

But let's just talk about Maine
for just a second, because

that's where you were doing this.

What's the Maine environment like,
and how did that work for you?

Because when I think about
Maine, I think about trees and

I think about cold weather.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

Yes, sir.

Well, you know, historically, like
my dad always says there's more

trees in Maine than there ever was.

You know, in

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
his the state was cut off in the,

you know, the 16, 17 hundreds.

It was, it was nearly clear cut like
the, the bottom two thirds probably,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
and, and, and cleared for cattle and

sheep in the 18 hundreds, 1860s, there
was a million sheep in the state of Maine.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And as there were in many places that

Maine is not alone in that way.

But today it's mostly, you know, a
lot of those old fields are grown

back up into woods and it's a,
it's a high rainfall environment.

You get like 55 inches of rain a

year.

And so it's really, you know, it's the
ecosystem there wants to be a forest.

And, and the early colonists you
know, cleared the land to so they

could grow crops and, and graze
livestock and they had the labor

force or wherever to do that.

But it's, it's like we live in a
completely different time now there.

And it's there's, there are still numerous
dairy farms, but it seems like every year

I hear about dairy farms closing there.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
The northern, the very northern

part of the state, Aroostook County.

We actually, I have spent very little
time up there, but there's a lot

of agriculture at scale up there.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Okay.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Crop, some crop growers and

probably some dairy farms.

It's a little, it's there's still more
open up there for whatever reason, whereas

the coastal and central areas have a lot
of the farms have closed and, and the

land has been allowed to grow back up.

Yeah, there's a lot.

There's the, the main Organic Farmers
Association is very active there.

And so it's one of the places where
there's probably one, a very high

percentage of small organic farms and
some fairly diversified but they're

on smaller acreages, you know, ranging
from vegetable production to small

dairy farms and different things.

And you know, we, we were involved
in that scene there in Maine at the

beginning of our, our time there.

And just started really for us.

We were just started thinking more
about where, where actually do like

does, does God want our, our help?

Like where do we, where can we
be the most useful and does it

actually make sense ecologically to
be trying to graze cattle or sheep

in a place that wants to be forced?

And,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
There's definitely the market there

for, for people who wanna buy product.

But, you know, we were trying to think
about how to grow, how to build a business

that was you know, that where we could
graze a thousand head of cattle or, or

several thousand head of sheep and have
the appropriate size land base to do that.

And, And, that was challenging
in Maine, especially with the

rising real estate prices and a
lot of people moving after covid.

A lot of people moving outta the
city and the, the real estate

just went through the roof there.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
and, you know, houses in towns, but for

farmhouses, you know, people, people
in New York City or Boston wanna just,

they have the money and they just go
pay whatever price someone puts on an

old farmhouse with a hundred acres.

Like it just blows your mind like the
prices that things are selling for.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Even
for here in Oklahoma, the price

increase we got with COVID and
there was a few other factors here.

Marijuana growth be or growing marijuana
became legal for you had to have permits

and stuff, but that really, through that
period really shot land prices up and

Yeah, and, and you couldn't make, it's
really difficult to make livestock pay

for land, but then with the increased
prices, it's even more difficult.

So I would imagine it's expon that's
more expensive in Maine because you're

dealing, you're fairly close to a.

More populated area for
your market, which is great,

but you're also working with your
dollars go less or go Not as far.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

And it

seemed like the solar industry also
took off around the same time and Yeah,

that too.

They were were hay
fields quite frequently.

I mean, obviously the landowner
had to make the deal and

stuff, but it was.

They made it really appealing for
many landowners to say yes, to

turning those hay fields into solar
grazing or, or solar fields and then

and then, and and clearing forest to
put up solar fields through there.

Right.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: And
that reminds me, so I mentioned

this on a couple episodes ago.

My dad mentioned the other day, pick on
my dad just a little bit when he loosens.

He's gonna be unhappy with me.

But he mentioned, he says, you know,
we need to build some structures

out in some of our pastures
and put shape cloth on them.

I'm like, or we plant some trees.

It doesn't work tomorrow,
but it'll get there.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: I I, I
do get, it's not quite one-to-one

with a solar panel versus a tree,
but to me that just sounds crazy.

To cut 'em down to put in solar panels.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
yeah.

And, and in places like Maine,
it, it never quite made sense

to us because there's so much
there's so many cloudy days, right.

There's,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
it's, you know, coming out to

Kansas, it's not, it's not quite
like, Seattle, but it's a lot more

like Seattle than it is Kansas.

Yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And I get why solar panels don't

work in Kansas 'cause the amount
of like hail and wind and wind.

But I don't know that they
make sense in Maine either.

They have less hail, but
it's very cloudy for the

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
If, if we had wanted to, we

probably could have built a
business in Maine on solar grazing.

But,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
We're a little concerned about

unintended consequences that things just
outside of our knowledge base around

the solar panels and grazing animals
under them, you know, to those who

are doing it like more power to 'em.

But it's not our.

It's not our, this, this, when we
think about how we want life to be,

either, you know, today or in the
future, like being around a bunch

of solar panels is not how we want

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: So
I, I'd like to have a house with solar

panels on the roof possibly, or, you know,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Right.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
feel a field full of solar panels.

Just seems like a, yeah, not a, not, or

fill a parking lot, fill a solar
panel so the cars can have some shade

or something that's already Yeah.

Put them

on the big box stores and over
all the parked cars, like Right.

There's so many other places to put
'em than where we produce our food.

Right.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: I, I agree.

I, I have to, I see some of these places.

They put solar panels and I'm like, why?

If you'd raise them a little bit
higher, put 'em over some cars,

provide a little shelter there, or how
many houses and barns are out there

that we could put solar panels on?

I know that creates a more
fragmented system and it's not as

efficient and stuff, but, but wow.

I just think there's so many
opportunities out there.

I'm like, why'd you put it there?

And now we have that fenced off, and
then some, sometimes they put 'em solo

to the ground and put gravel under 'em.

I'm like, why?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and with things like the PFAS thing
that happened, I don't know, two or three

years ago that came out in Maine and it
was just like the whole state of Maine,

like for the most part, people who were
told in the seventies or the eighties

when the Clean Water Act came like,
here, dump this refuge on your farms.

We'll get

rid of it that way instead
of dumping it in the water.

And and then there's all the
unintended consequences that

come out 20 to 30 years later.

Yeah.

I dunno if

you heard that.

That's the kind of the most recent thing
in Maine was they've actually had to close

farms down because of too high of PFAS

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: oh, no.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
in the soil and in the water

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Quite a few farms are, have been

just shut down.

And so that, you know, that was a,
that was all part of the concern too.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: And, and you
know, as we kinda dumped the main,

just a little bit there and didn't
actually mean to dump 'em too bad.

I still plan on getting someone on the
podcast from Maine, but Everywhere's

got their own issues and stuff.

But as you.

A, as you all thought about you all's
future and thought we need to move

somewhere else, talk a little bit about
that decision and then your process

to start looking elsewhere because,
well, I talked to someone the other day

and they were in downtown of a city.

Obviously they're gonna have to
move somewhere, but that's a big

decision to take your family and
uproot 'em and go across the country.

So talk a little bit about that decision
because there, there may be others

facing that decision and what are
some things they need to think about.

And I just asked you a hundred questions.

I apologize for that.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
no worries.

It's okay.

No, it's a, it was a humbling experience.

Yeah.

I basically, I grew up in Maine.

My, my parents have always
lived in Maine, you know.

It's it was like a, it was
part of my identity, you know,

I'm this is where I'm from and
I'm always gonna live here, kind

of attitude is what I always had.

I did have a short stint in Vermont,
and that's where I met Sarah,

but shortly after we got married,
it was like, okay, it's time to

move back, move back to Maine.

And and so the, I, when we made that
choice to move back to Maine, I never

thought we would move from Maine.

The intent was to go back to my
parents', small, rough acreage and try

to build a farm that we, a profitable
farm business on, whatever, like

10 acres, you know, like whatever
the 10 acres of usable land there.

And and so when we started, you
know, there was, it was multi,

there was multiple reasons.

We had an insecure land
situation that we were using.

And so that was a big part of it.

That was really kind of the catalyst.

But there was also this desire to
ha be part of a big, the bigger

regenerative movement and be doing the
work where it actually meant something.

'cause if we, like, the way I viewed
it, where the land that we were working

in Maine if we just stopped what we
were doing and nobody did like grazed

another animal there, it would've
just grown back up into forest.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: the
land wouldn't have complained one bit,

like the, the trees and the, and all the
wild animals would've just moved right in

and it wouldn't have been become a desert.

Right.

And so, so there was a big part of it
for me that really wanted to move to, you

know, move to a place where the work we
were doing actually meant something for

the long term that we were helping to.

You know, be part of a movement that's
reversing diver desertification and

increasing life in a place where, you
know, where it's got ra low rainfall

and needs that herbivore impact.

There was also, you know, the financial
piece where it was though our business

was growing each year organically, it
was, we were doing better each year.

It was still very challenging
financially to make it all work.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
we, yeah.

But I think going back to the land
agreement we had, it was mostly that,

because again, we were like, things
were really, it was the best year

yet when we were on our last year.

Yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
with cost of things going up too

in the current economy, it's hard
to predict if it would've stayed.

Well, good.

Yeah.

You know,

well, like, you know, if things went,
it's like if things went, went really

bad and people didn't have money
to buy expensive lamb, will, will

we still be able to be in business?

Or will I, will I have to go back to
the, you know, I was a carpenter before

when I always was trying to farm, but I,
my main occupation was building houses.

We did that for on the side for years
while farming up until probably 2018,

I was working as a carpenter and, and,
you know, do farming early in the morning

and into the night with a headlamp.

And, and so it was like, how
can we actually make a living.

How, you know, how can we make
enough money and be doing this in

a place that makes sense, you know,
ecologically and, and then also

wanting to be part of a community.

You know, like Sarah said, the people
in Maine are amazing, but we found very

little comradery in people who are seeking
to understand how to graze animals.

Regeneratively.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
There were, there were pe

There are people there.

Yeah.

It's not, there's none, but there
you know, we couldn't just go to like

a a conference on regenerative ag.

A lot of the conferences
we did go to the solutions.

Were always very technological based.

Like, you know, you know, you need
to, you know, in, you know, for market

gardeners, it's like you need to put
up more greenhouses or, you know.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
You need, you know, for, to combat

climate change, you, you know, you need
to, you need to put in more irrigation

and, you know, do different things.

And we were like, nah, you just need more
livestock and like, you need to, you know,

include livestock in your operations.

And and so we were sort of, black
sheep in a way, in that way.

Like I, I personally could never quite
a hundred percent agree with a lot of

the other folks in the community there.

'cause I was

like, just so adamant.

We need, you need more
livestock on your operations.

Even if you had an orchard or a, or a.

Grain farm or a vegetable garden.

How could you in, in
include li more livestock?

And that was just wasn't really
talked, you know, I mean, to, it

is to some degree talked about,
but not as much as I wanted to be.

And the mo so, so it was just, you
know, there was so many d different

facets and we really just started kind
of preying on it and looking at you

know, kind of job opportunities that
were, you know, listed in different,

you know, job boards or whatever.

And I remember we, you know, we,
we homeschool, so we were looking

at like, which states have the
best laws for homeschooling.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
We, we didn't wanna be like really far,

like in a place that was like, like.

We didn't wanna go right from
Maine to like South Texas.

That was a place we, we were
considering a, a job opportunity

in South Texas and seemed like
a little bit too big of a jump.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

Yeah.

So, so what I'm hearing there, first
off, that identity issue, I hate

to say it issue, but your identity
is tied to where you grow up.

I know for me, I am, I'm in northeast
Oklahoma and I go over into Missouri and

Arkansas, even eastern Texas, and I'm
like, these areas are nice, Louisiana.

They would be nice to
live here, but I'm a Okie.

So, so, and, and then the other
thing, you talked about some,

some other things in there for me.

My family lives here close and I don't
wanna move further away than I am.

So that really constrains me to that area.

But we all have that criteria.

Like you mentioned, going to South
Texas would be a huge change.

So as you looked at, you're like, what
fits into what I'm comfortable with?

so that worked out.

So as you looked at homeschooling
and stuff, you said you ended up

in Kansas, so obviously that works.

What were some other
states you were looking at?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Well, real fast, I do wanna just speak

to, you mentioned the family aspect.

It was, that was probably
the single hardest factor

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, I

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
moving, you know, my parents and my,

my siblings and family are in Maine.

Sarah's parents are
in, in the Boston area.

They're a drive.

They were a drive away if we

wanted to go visit.

And it was, that was the single,
that was probably the biggest factor

of, of thinking about, okay, we're
taking the kids away from the family,

you know, how's that gonna be?

And we had really had to weigh out that
kinda like, well, is the quality of

life we're giving them here in Maine
with access to see family occasionally

better than if we, you are in a more
secure situation doing the important

work that we see important, you know,
that we hold so valuable to be doing.

And so, you know, we kind
just kind of kept preying

on it, but I, you know, I've
transitioned myself from

thinking of myself as a maner to.

to.

you know, a human from earth.

You know, like I feel

like now I, I feel so free.

Like, I feel like I
could live anywhere and,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
like if, if for whatever reason it

doesn't work out here, here in Kansas,
like, you know, we could, we could go

anywhere and, and do this work and, and
and feel just like liberated in that way.

It's amazing.

And I'm very sensitive too to the people
who grew up here and, and you know, I, you

know, coming from a perspective, always
being from a place like I don't really

wanna like negatively impact the quality
of life here for the people who have

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

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cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Mike, I,
I wanna jump back into that family

discussion just a little bit more.

Were your family supportive of this,
and then do you feel like moving

there, you were closer to 'em in
Maine, but just because you're close

does not mean you, you see 'em and
communicate as much as you would like?

Is that going to change
much with you in Kansas,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
right.

That was sort of, we started,

you know, kind of looking at,
like, we would go to see my

parents like once a month.

They would come up and see us maybe
once a month or every other month.

We were an hour and a half from my folks.

And and they were pretty much
the only family members that

would come up and visit us.

Because we, we, we started out on their
property, but we in eventually got a

opportunity to work to manage some land
and live in a house in central Maine.

And so that was, you know, like
I said, an hour and a half away.

So we were pretty much.

We didn't get very few visitors and we,
we, I, I was going back to my hometown

to deliver product on a weekly basis.

So I would stop in and see my parents
for the first few years, like every week.

And sometimes the kids or Sarah were with
me and sometimes they, it was just me.

Probably most of the time it was just me.

But then a month they would come
down and they would come up and

visit us, or we'd, we'd all make
the trek down for family gatherings.

But it was like, if we added up, it
was like, we were always in a rush.

We'd be like, we'd be

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: That is so true.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
two and we were usually come,

we were combining it with
like a delivery or something.

So we, so we, we could only visit
for an hour or so, and then we'd

have to make the long drive back at
late, you know, late at night and

get home late and have chores to do.

And the visits were always
just felt a little rushed.

We started saying, well, you know, with a.

If we take a job opportunity that has some
time off included, and we can just come

back to Maine, if that's what we wanna
do, then we could actually spend like

a week with Grammy and Grandpa and, and

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
not feel like we're gonna

rush off quality time.

Yeah.

And have

quality time.

Yep.

You know?

And, and with the balance of it all,
like Nick was working and I was working,

I was like mostly in charge of the
website like the YouTube channel, the,

the Facebook page, the all those things,
but also accounting and egg packing.

And we, you know, at one point we had
800 chickens, so we had something around

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
light, 400 eggs a day.

So between the two of us, practically
working more than full-time our kids

were falling through the cracks.

And so.

And, and, and our, my family
were, are great, but they didn't

really, they, and what we were
doing was not important to them.

And they

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
they, we had no support.

So it was just us doing,
we, we value family time.

We value three meals a day.

We value sitting down
at the table together.

And we value reading at night.

We don't, we don't do screens
and we don't do technology a lot.

We just do, you know, kind of
just life and kids learning,

but they would be with us.

And those times were amazing.

But the times that would fall through
the cracks was like, as we were

getting, as my kids were getting
older and they were homeschooling

we couldn't afford curriculum.

We couldn't, I mean, and there's a lot
of free resources out there and I was

like the best at finding them for the

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah, but

that takes time.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
it takes time.

Right.

And then just like sitting down with
them for a few minutes, like they're

super smart and you know, they can
do a lot of like fencing skills and

electrical work and plumbing work.

Yeah.

But you know, like farm, farm electrical,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Fencing and, and running

water lines for animals.

Right.

But the, like, sitting down to do

like the worksheets or whatever,
I, I don't value that as much,

but I think there's a time and a
place for a little bit of that.

And to read and learning to write, it
takes time and you have to sit down

and you have to take time with your
kids to sit down with, read with them.

And so now he is mostly got the job and we
help out when we want to and when we can,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
it's, it's shifted the dynamic a

little bit more where I can support
the house a lot more and he can

support the family financially.

And and, and Sarah also, because she
has all the the spreadsheet knowledge

and stuff, she is actually very
helpful to the business, even as,

you know, just as an auxiliary to me.

And

she kind of helps, helps.

She's not a paid employee,
but she helps me a lot with,

with the work that I'm doing.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

Well, and you know, as, as I think
about it, and for some people,

depending on how often you see.

Your family moving further away
does may not adversely affect that.

And for, like you, you mentioned
before, you'd see a, well, you're busy,

so it's a quick drop in, hello, talk
for a minute, and then you're gone.

Whereas now you have the ability to
go back and visit for a longer period

of time without those demands that the
quality of, of the visits much greater.

So I, I think that's an
important consideration.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
I think so.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

Yeah.

And and that's, you know, and we, we,
we, we do, video chats with my, my

folks and other, other family
members like frequently.

And you know, that technology is
definitely, like, if it was a hundred

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Definitely helps.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
It, we would, you know, be writing

letters back and forth and the kids
actually do write a fair amount of

letters to like their friends and
some of their cousins in Maine.

So, so that's, they get to practice
their writing and stay in touch with

people through, through just old
school, you know, paper and pen.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

Which I think is a great practice.

I, I wish, and I say this and I'm gonna
say this, and I don't do it now, nor

am I going to practice and get to the
point that I do it any time in my life.

But I wish I was, you know, had
that habit of letter writing

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
me too.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: as a
younger person to do it now.

And, and I'm not saying it with any
illusions, that's tomorrow I'm gonna

start learning how, because I'm, I'm
not going to, I'm not gonna put the

time towards it, but I wish I had that.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Right.

Same.

Same.

Yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

So in getting ready for the move
across country and then moving across

country, was there anything now that
you are there, you wish you'd known

before you started the process?

I.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
I don't know.

My quick answer is no.

Yeah.

It felt

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: good.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
it felt like a, we made the decision

and everything just fell into place,
and whether that was the hand of

God just helping us get there.

But we decided to stay at a few
Airbnbs along the way because

we had livestock guardian dogs
that we were bringing with us.

And

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
so we just was like, oh.

And then we decided to
stop at Greg Judy's place.

We were like, he's in Missouri.

It's on the way to Kansas.

So, and they, they've got an Airbnb.

Yeah,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yes they do.

Yeah,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
So we stayed at his place.

And, and pestered I can't
remember his wife's name.

Kind of pestered her to Jan.

Yeah, Jan, we, we, we were like,
is there any way we can see Greg?

Because the Airbnb is like,
they don't necessarily interact

with the Airbnb people,

so if you, you might
see them, you might not.

And so we're like, is there
any way we can see Greg?

And so he, she's like, oh, he,
well, he is gotta go move the bulls.

You could help him with that.

So we, we went and helped,
helped him move the bulls for

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, nice.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: And
he gave us a de, you know, demonstration

of how the bale and roller works, and they
gave the kids a ride on his four wheeler.

And

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: fun.

The kids started making
like little, oh yeah.

Trinkets with the grass
that he hates or something.

What was the broom?

Grass?

It was not, not broom grass.

The broom.

The broomed

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, oh, yes.

Yeah.

Broom.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
making, like we, we were talking

and they were just bored.

So they started sitting on the ground
weaving broomed and he's like, I've

never seen kids do this before.

This is amazing.

So,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: And
that's the best use for Broom

said I've ever heard of.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: yep.

So it's a good time.

So we just, we just said, Hey,
we're going across the country.

Where can we stop?

Who do we wanna see?

Yeah.

And what's the best way to get there?

And just to back up a little bit, we.

So I agreed to take the job and
then we just listed everything.

We had a bunch of sheep and some,
a few had a cattle that and some

other like equipment stuff that
needed, all needed to be sold.

'cause we knew we
couldn't bring it with us.

And within like two weeks of it being
listed on Facebook, between other

people sharing it and just people who
wanna support us, they people bought

everything we had to, to sell basically.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, nice.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

You know, I think we, we have, there's
been times being here that we wish we'd

figured out how to bring our milk cow.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
'cause we realized out here that milk

cows are sort of rare and more expensive.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, they're,
they're pretty pricey right now to

get a nice milk cow for the farm.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And it seems like the cattle market out

here, we were there's a probably, there's
an interesting thing being in Maine.

I don't know.

The cattle prices are very different.

They like, are maybe slower to like
cows in, in general or steers might be

cheaper there than they are here, whereas
the, the prices just kept going up and

more affected on the, on
the daily, on the, yeah.

Weekly

cow prices.

yeah.

So a 1500 milk cow, there is
like a 4,000 milk cow here.

It's

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yes.

Yeah,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: yeah.

My, my daughter's looking for a milk cow.

And the prices we see, I saw
one for 3,200 the other day.

But yeah, that's the floor.

It just seems like they're,
they're much higher than that.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: it's
almost like looking for a horse, you know,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
it's, or a vehicle.

Or a vehicle.

Right.

And to go back to like our, our
quality of life in Maine when we,

we, we like holistic, like a holistic
mindset, like an Alan Savory,

like how do you want life to be?

We really liked that model.

And there were many times where
we couldn't afford to run a

truck because our truck broke.

And it was like we had, we had one vehicle
for most of the time that we were, you

know, operating a, a, a business in Maine.

And it was our family
vehicle and our farm vehicle.

We, you know, it was a,

a, a,

Toyota Tacoma with, you're not
Tacoma, a tundra with a backseat.

And the kids, just three kids
squished in that backseat.

And we, we went everywhere in that.

Yeah.

And so it would break down and
then again, the price increases

over the last four or five years.

It just I had a good mechanic
that could, you know, would fix

it in between my deliveries.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Like I, I'd do a delivery

and I'd drop it off and he'd.

Have for the weekend, we'd have
no vehicle for the weekend.

Just be home moving fence and pick
it up the following week and be

able to make the next delivery.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh Yeah.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah, so we talked about like

what, what quality of life
we would want to do, right.

What, what, what would
be important for us?

And yeah.

That's really what it
came down to is right.

You just trying to think like, okay,
how do we want life to be in the future

for us, you know, for our family now,
for our kids in the long-term future,

what, what skills and what type of
life do we wanna be preparing them for?

And so it was, you know, moving to
a more of a grassland eco, you know,

you know, ecology and and being more
involved in, in those occupations, the,

the sheep and the cattle and, you know.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Now,
how long have you been in Kansas?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: We
moved here last March, so it's been about

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, so

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
13 months.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: yeah.

So a little over a year.

I thought it was a little bit shorter.

So as you think about your move
and how things are going for you

now, and think about in Maine when
you were considering this move,

do you, do you think it happened
right when it should have happened?

Or do you wish you'd pushed maybe
harder to have it happen Sooner?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Like if would, do I think

we should have moved sooner?

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
No, I don't think we need to move.

I think it was just right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We got a level of custom grazing.

Yeah, we, we, we, we had just kind
of gotten into custom grazing.

Yeah.

It was the, and we.

We really liked selling food.

We, like, we always think of ourselves
as food producers and being, you

know, that's, you know, we're soil
stewards and food producers foremost.

But the direct to market, which was
our bread and butter for a long time it

became just, you know, challenging labor

wise to fulfill all the orders, all
the marketing, the communication with

all the d as, as the business grew
and we had more and more customers,

it d demanded more and more time that.

And so the idea that we could just do
custom grazing and have like a couple

business to business customers and be
able to make a big part of our income

doing that seemed really interesting.

So we, the last year in Maine, we custom
grazed some sheep and some cattle for

a couple different operations and.

That was, that was like really good.

They were, they were all mixed into
one flirt of cow, our cows, our sheep

and other people's cows and sheep
that were okay to be run together.

And it was just one big, one big mob.

And, and, okay.

And it was, sheep like es and lambs and
u lambs and feeder lambs and cows and

calves and some steers and heifer calves.

And we, you know, we br we actually
had a bull we know to breed

some of the cows for a moment.

Yeah.

One of the custom graziers had
a nurse cow and she'd put, she'd

grafted four calves onto it.

It was a jersey dairy operation.

Oh yeah.

And she'd grafted four c calves on it.

And that was out there with them mom, you

know, the nurse mom, and our four calves.

So it was just like, it was just,
and, and three don and three donkeys.

Right.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
it was like, just like so beautiful

every day, like seeing all

these different animals together.

Right.

And the, the sheep would use the
cattle as shade structures and.

And, and we got a level of, we
went into the the Free Choice

Mineral Cafe experiment on our own.

And that was really nice because I did
a spreadsheet on like what animal was

using what, during what time of the year.

And I gathered a lot of information,
like whether they were putting on

a, a coat, they would go through
like, you know, sulfur or they

were, it was fly fly season.

They would eat more iodine,
different things like

that.

And it was fascinating to

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458:
That would be, yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
coming into here, we have experiments

under our belt that possibly yeah,
business owners wouldn't wanna

try, but we have that knowledge

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
had, I recently actually, this just

this morning, like in preparation for
talking with you, I was thinking about.

What if we just decided to move instead
of moving to Maine instead of, we had

thought about applying to jobs on ranches
out west, and I think we gained so much

information, just so much experience
in trying to do our own thing and, and

learn the hard way than just go right.

To becoming an employee

for someone else.

Well, like you're saying, like
the paradigm shifts because

there's a lot of people who say,
well, you can't do it that way.

You have to do it this way.

Right.

And so you, when you're trying
something on your own, you're like,

well, this is all I have, or this
is, this is what I'm interested in.

I wanna learn more about that.

So you get to try to
try things on your own.

Yeah.

Which not everybody's
willing to try those things.

Well, it's, it's harder to do
when you're an employee if the, if

your boss, you know, or you know,
you, it's just the, it's just more

challenging to take those risks.

Right.

And

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: it is.

Even, even when you think about, so
for instance, in my situation, we

have dad's animals, we have dad and
my animals, and we have my animals.

With my animals, I can experiment
or try whatever I want, and if it

doesn't work, it only affects me.

So, yeah, that, that's
a a great point there.

Let's transition just a
little bit and talk about what

you're doing in Kansas now.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

So, I got hired by Sage
Asin at new business.

He started in, I guess last
year called Regen, LLC.

And I am managing a, the Kansas
unit for region LLC here in Healy.

And it's, it's pretty much a
hundred percent custom grazing.

There are a few of the sheep that
the parent company ask in land and

livestock still own, but most of them.

Most of the sheep that we have here are
all custom grazed, but they're owned by

outside investors or people who wanna

own sheep and, and region gets
paid to take care of them.

So, we've, and then we run stockers.

It was, it last year was all
steers in the summertime.

And so in about two weeks, two or
three weeks now, the, the steers

will be arriving again this year.

So we last year we had about a thousand
sheep and goats over the summer and

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
and over the, the, the steers left

and in September and then we started
getting in more sheep and the goats left.

And so over the winter we had
almost four, 5,000 sheep, like

4,700 sheep over the winter here.

Three different bands.

We had adult wool, a adult hair, sheep
a band of like 1500 or so hair uams, so

young uams that we were not breeding.

And, and then a band
of wool sheep as well.

So, we, we've shipped some of those
to, so Sage has he's managing a

ranch in Nebraska and Wyoming.

And so some of those sheep have gone on
to different places, and I think mostly

they've gone to the, the unit in Nebraska.

And so right now we have
around 2200 sheep here.

And that's these, their current plan is
they will be all be here for the season.

We've got the help of two Peruvian
guys, awesome guys that are just

work really hard for us to manage
the sheep and they're so much fun.

We, we really love working with them.

And they, they do
whatever we ask 'em to do.

It's really awesome and, and
we've all taken up the, you know,

learning Spanish to, so we can

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
communicate with them, which was,

I personally never had any, any
interest in learning another language.

But it's definitely and if they say
you can't learn a language when you're

40, you can just, immersion helps.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yes it would.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Nick was like speaking Spanish

right away and I was like, wow.

And I went through 12 years of Spanish in,
in school and I felt like I could remember

a few words, but I couldn't speak it.

So it's really nice.

My kids are out there with them and
they're learning the language and and

you know, my kids have always asked
to learn another language, so it's,

it's quite, quite nice to have that.

Yep.

So we.

The, the steers are run on native
pastures and the sheep are run

on native pastures when possible.

We, it's all, it's all leased land here in

Kansas.

And so most of the winter, the
sheep were grazing stubble oat

not oats corn and milo stubble.

And and then in the summertime our,
our main landlord will, and actually

another, we've gotten some connections
with some other landlords who are

planting cover crops for us to graze.

So learning a lot about how to graze cover
crops and with sheep and and and, and a

lot about the native grasses here too.

Like it's just completely different
grasses than in the north, northeast and

the light, not only different species,
but the lifecycles when, you know,

like when you're gonna get the most
growth out of the, the livestock

on the native grasses and you know,
what, what can stockpile and, you

know, how if are they gonna, you know,
appropriate times to graze stockpile.

And so we're, we're just like,
sponging it up 'cause there's

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
learn.

Yeah.

We have our experience, but
there's so much down here that's

different and, and good way.

Yeah.

And it's all spread out.

Like even our native range pieces
are, we have a, we have 1700 acres

of native range that's, it's like
an amazing piece that the landowner

had set up previous where it's.

It's all broken up into
strips with high tensile and

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
points every 600 feet with like,

like very good water flow, like
30 gallons a minute, water flow.

So that for the stockers, that's like a
great setup to be able to do daily moves.

Most of the, most of the time last year
I was doing twice a day moves with this,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: And
but like I was saying that we're, we're

kind of spread out like the, the sheep
graze all over and we have got some land

10 miles to the north, and so, we'll, we
walk the sheep up up there to do that.

There's the, the, the Milo and corn
grazing is all separated and some of

it has water and some of it doesn't.

So we, the guys haul water with a
thousand gallon water tanks to, to

get water to the sheep where if they
don't, aren't close to a water point.

And they, you know, I've pretty
much insisted they do like at the.

You know, the, at the most, I mean, I
tried, I want them to do everyday moves

to move 'em with the animals every day.

But sometimes just labor wise, it doesn't

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
you know?

They probably average more every other
day, moves and then occasionally they

might do a three day paddock or something.

But we try a shoot to have 'em do
everyday moves with the sheep, which

is, it's so much better for the sheep
and, and the land to have the sheep

having access to fresh feed every day
instead of trying to get, you know, get

one more day on this piece of ground.

And really notice, like, if, when, when
you they do that, that's when like you'll,

seems like you'll have more deaths happen.

And,

and the animals just thrive a lot better
if they have that access to a fresh bite.

They didn't have to.

It's not somebody's
second, second, choice.

It's their fir, you know,
first choice bite every day.

So,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: when, when you
think about the change from Maine and

scaling up to that many animals, 'cause
you went from a, a much smaller amount

of larger mammals to much larger numbers.

What was the biggest change
with that scale change?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: Hmm.

Well, I mean, definitely with a
sheep, it's like, you, you, don't,

you can't focus on individuals.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: It's much
tougher to count him, isn't it?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
you, you, you have, you where you're

really looking at the whole group.

You do need to pick out, like you
need to look for the, the ones that

are falling behind and, and, you
know, pick out the skinny ones.

And like we, we never kept a, like a,
like a feedlot situation in Maine and.

Always just kept them
healthy by moving them every

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
and having access to green grass

and then it's just a di it was
very different co context here.

If we notice an animal that's not
doing well for any reason, pretty

much it comes to it, the corral kind.

I don't know if he, it's really visible
behind us and not behind our house.

And then it will get, you know, if it's
something that we wanna keep, then it'll

just get rehabilitated and go back out.

Often they are, they're culls
and we're just trying to keep 'em

alive until we can get 'em sold.

So we didn't have that in Maine.

It's definitely a, we, we
did call and we cu heavily.

We did call in

Maine, but they, they would often go
right to it, right to the butcher.

We were 15 minutes to a butcher shop, and

we could just bring 'em right from
the field to the butcher shop.

Now we try to fill a trailer
before we send right.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: It's
just a little more challenging that way.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
But yeah, diff it's pretty similar.

I mean, you're just making bigger,
bigger paddocks in anyways.

Yeah.

Bigger, bigger

paddocks.

The water struggles can be real
when you have a hot thirsty day

and you've got 800 steers trying to
push their way into a water trough.

But it's pretty much
similar, as long as you can,

you know, make the adequate space.

I was really surprised when last spring
when the steers got dropped off here.

I was like, there's no grass grow.

'cause it's like, you know, this

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
we different, a lot, a lot of buffalo

grass, which is very short grass, but,
but really amazing in so many ways.

And you know, we were used to grass that
was like up to here some parts of the

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
it was like, you know, oh my gosh,

they're gonna be complaining.

And they didn't, the Angus were out on the

pasture and.

Them 1, 2, 3 times a day.

And they would never even complain though,
just when they were, when they were

ready for a move, they were ready for a

move.

But once they learned that, you know,
they were gonna stay in the fence,

I, and you know, and they knew that
I was gonna come back and move them.

There was really very little ever
had a problem with the fence.

It, what did single strand poly braid.

And occasionally I'd come in the
morning and they'd be one out and

he'd just be milling around trying
to figure out how to get back in.

You know, he probably got pushed out
somewhere along the way and and he

wouldn't, didn't, they never left.

Out of the 800 that we brought,
I think last year we lost three.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: I
got ex, I had never had any experience

with using a dart gun and darting
cattle with, you know, just do,

doing a little doctoring if we saw
something, either a foot rott or like

a pink eye or something like that.

And so, I don't know, I used a
dozen darts or something, may, you

know, probably not much more than
a dozen darts over the season.

And had three losses over the season.

Just, you know, the, the
they call 'em ballers.

The, the the, these were all, all the
steers and they, occasionally they would.

They'd pick one that was, they'd
start riding and they'd ride

him until he wasn't doing well.

And so I, by the end of the

season, I figured out how to,
how to separate those ballers

into the paddock behind.

They just, I just have 'em follow
and separately, and occasionally

they were, they didn't like being
by themselves, so you had to have

at least two or three together.

Otherwise they'd just try to jump the
fence to get back in with the group.

And then

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
like a death sentence.

They'd, they would, you know, just
get ridden more if they did that.

So, you know, yeah.

But by, by the end, I, you know, I think
that I had a group of like five ballers

that I had separated out into the, to
the, the back paddock and yeah, when

they, when I was like constantly nervous.

'cause you can't count 800 steers in a

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Right?

Yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
like, ah, I, I, geez, I

hope none are missing.

I hope they're all there when we ship out.

We had ship out, we had couple,
we had a couple of events.

We had a big flash flood at one point.

Yeah.

We had a big, which

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, no.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
of fence everywhere.

Yeah.

It was a big storm.

And we, and, and it, and I just, if
it, if I had been anywhere else on the

ranch, it wouldn't have been the problem.

But I was down in a little valley,

the range is filled up with water so

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
wash, washed out my poly braid,

washed out the barbed wire fence
against the adjoining ranch.

And so I went on a Sunday morning
to go check on him and they had,

they were leaving the paddock to
go into other paddocks on our ranch

and they were leaving the ranch
going onto the adjoining ranch.

And I was there by myself trying
to gather 'em all back up and Yep.

And I finally, you know, took all morning,
but I got 'em all gathered back up.

But, you know, for the rest of the
season I was like, man, I hope, but the

thing is the neighbors here are so good.

Like, if

any cattle get out, like people
are calling me, you know, not,

not usually, not even my cattle.

Like, they're like,

Hey, I've got some cattle on my ranch.

Are these your cattle?

And I'd be like, oh no, those aren't mine.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: and
you know, they send a picture or something

and I could confirm they weren't mine.

And yeah.

Yeah, it's a nice small community.

So

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, very good.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
yeah, you know, if, I've always

felt like if, if a steer got
outta my neighbor's property, they

were gonna let me know, you know?

And

you know, sure enough, when they shipped
they were all there, all but the three

that had died, it was, it was awesome.

So.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Well, very good.

Nick and Sarah, it's time we transition
to our famous four questions, same four

questions we ask of all our guests.

Our first question, what is your favorite
grazing grass related book or resource?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Well, I books, I always

go to holistic management.

I'm a big fan of Alan Savory.

And as a family we always really
enjoyed watching Greg Judy's

podcast and really love listening
to him talk about grazing and yeah.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Sarah,
you have anything to add on that?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
I really enjoyed Dr.

Fred PSA's book on nourishment as far

as, you know, keeping the animals
healthy and having them, the

babies with their mothers watching
what to eat and things like that.

It's, that's, that's an added
bonus into the world of like

moving your cattle every day.

And I think it

adds on to a lot of what Alan Savory and
even Greg Judy say about the animals, so.

Mm-hmm.

It's

nice how it all works together sometimes.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: it is.

And excellent resources there.

I've been wanting to read nourishment for
a long time and I recently was made aware

there's a audio book, so I'm actually
listening to the audio version of it.

So yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Good.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Our
second question, what's your

favorite tool for the farm?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Probably poly braid.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: I think

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Step in posts,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: yeah,
with, without those, it's hard

to do what you do each day.

yeah, What would you tell someone?

Just getting started.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Figure out how to keep your animals on

the smallest possible space and move 'em
every day and, and do the experiment.

Yeah.

De decision fatigue can be real.

And, and you have to, you have to fail.

You have to fail.

It's

just like, if you know, I'm gonna
get up in the morning and I'm

gonna make a decision and I'm gonna
fail, and, and then that's okay.

It's not a bad decision,
it's just it information.

Then just make that decision
and know you're gonna fail, and

then do the next thing the next
day that makes you fail again

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And just keep failing until you realize

like your failures don't define you.

It's, it's the continuing to get
up the next day and, and, have

progress in the right direction.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
gotta have your, you've gotta have

your, what you're aiming for, you
have to figure out what your goal

is as a family, as an individual.

Yeah, have a, have a goal.

Yeah, definitely.

And like, figure out, think,
spend some time thinking about

what your goals are and then just
start moving to towards them.

And when you fail, one small
step because you're gonna Yeah.

Get back up again and
move towards that goal.

Yeah.

Well, and constantly reevaluate,
you know, are we move closer to

the goal or further away, right.

There's a lot of distractions
on a farm, right?

You can have a random animal who just
dies and it's, maybe it's one out

of a hundred, or even one outta 20.

And you can get really distracted about
that one animal and think, I failed this

one animal and the rest are thriving.

And in the process of.

Trying to fix that one animal.

Not that that's not important,
but you can forget about the

rest of it's very easy to do.

We've done it so many

times.

You know, you just, you forget about
the whole picture and you go towards

the one thing that's a distraction.

And so we often think about things
in an analogy of a motorcycle.

And I don't drive a motorcycle,

but I've heard it.

If you're driving in the road
and you see a pothole and you're

looking at that pothole trying
to avoid it, you're gonna hit the

pothole,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
right?

So you just have to look at where
you wanna go and see the pothole,

acknowledge it's there, right?

It does the pothole, but
don't keep looking at it.

Look at the things you wanna get to.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

Excellent advice.

Both.

Yes.

And lastly, where can others
find out more about you?

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Well, we do have a YouTube channel

that we have neglected for the
past year, but we, we, at any point

we could, we actually have uploaded a
few things in the past year, but I don't

think our website is active anymore.

Our YouTube channel is Jackson
Regeneration Family now.

It was

Jackson Regeneration Farm, but we
switched to Jackson Regenerational

family as a, since We aren't running
our own business at this point.

So yeah, that's probably the best

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yeah.

And we'll put a link.

To the, the, to that in our show notes
and before we get guys pulled up.

So we're talking and
Sarah says, Nick and I'm,

I'm like, Nick sounds right.

And then I looked at my paper
and I'm like, wait, I got Mike.

So I called you Mike, and a little
bit Sarah calls you Nick again.

I'm like, I've got something wrong.

So I popped open in a new tab
and I'm like, I have Nick there.

Why did IW write Mike down?

I don't know.

So Nick, I apologize for that.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
you say it once and

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, okay, good.

Yeah.

To wrap up, do you have a question for me?

How do you keep names straight?

I really don't know.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Oh, geez.

Well, so you work with
your dad, it sounds like.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: I do, yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
And have, how's, how's that go?

Like, do, is it, do you guys
enjoy working with each other?

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: I, I love
the opportunity to work with him.

And my dad is a Vietnam veteran
and he is, when I say disabled,

dad does tons of stuff.

He's disabled, but he
gets around with a walker.

But when you say that, you're gonna
think he's more fragile than he is.

My dad's not fragile.

I don't think anywhere anyone's
ever thought dad's fragile.

So we've worked together for years.

I live two miles down the road from him.

We have cat or he's got
cattle that I manage.

We have hair sheep together.

And then I have goats
and cattle on my own.

But I talk to dad every day.

We work on stuff together.

Yesterday I complained to my wife that
my dad roped me into doing something

else that wasn't on my schedule, but I, I
find that it's such an honor to be able,

he can't do all that we do physically.

And obviously he's older than me, so,
you know, his age comes in there too.

And it's such an honor to be able
to help him do his goals because I

know he's wanted to, to do this for
years and we've done it for years,

but he's not ready to, to give up.

So I really enjoy it.

Now when I say that it's really been a
journey, because when I was 20 working

with my dad or 25 working with my dad,
it's a whole different environment

now that I'm a little over 50.

We won't say the exact years, but.

I understand my place and I
am more accepting that I'm

able to help him get there.

Now, on the conversely, he's
more accepting of my crazy

ideas and what I want to try.

So we've both grown and, and I
look at it and think, I've only

got so many more years of this.

I need to take advantage
of it and enjoy it.

So I, I love doing it.

Working with family introduces a
whole host of issues that you've

gotta be able to work through and
be honest and, and understand.

Sometimes you gotta take a step back.

As much as I enjoy working with dads,
there's days he drives me crazy.

It's just the way it is.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Definitely.

For sure.

That's wonderful.

And he had a dairy farm
when you were growing up.

Is that

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Yes, yes.

So, grew up, grew up on a dairy.

I went to college and I was one of the
smartest ones in my class at college.

'cause I came home to dairy after college.

Did that for a year, and then
we sold out and he's ran.

Then when we sold out, I went,
I worked off the farm and he

started running beef cattle.

And then, I don't know about,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
what kind of dairy cows did you guys run

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: we had Holsteins

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
whole.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: We
were, we were, I think the best

way to describe it is kind of a
pasture-based system, small dairy.

We weren't grass-based because we
weren't pushing grass into 'em.

I did try, that's where I started my
grass journey, trying to manage them

and ran into all kinds of headaches
and didn't know what I was doing.

I still don't know what I'm doing,
but I'm doing a little bit better now.

But yeah, Holsteins and I love dairies

daring.

I'd love to get some jerseys now

or a smaller breed.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
she's awesome.

She's short statured and I didn't
like intentionally see search out.

There was a, there was a sale, a,
I guess a dairy was going outta

business in southern Kansas.

And anyways, I got her from a
friend who picked her up at the

auction and she's fantastic and

she won't, she won't eat any grain.

Like I,

I mean, I, I love the ideal of having
a grass finished like a grass milk

essentially.

But I wanna make sure the cow
keeps condition on her, but she

won't eat any anyway.

She's fantastic.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, well, good.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
eat mineral or salt either though.

Right.

So

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
there might be a problem down the line.

We, we, we start to wonder if she had
actually the way she, she's out on grass

now a little bit as much as we can.

And we actually wonder if she's
actually grazed before the way

she tries to eat the grass.

She doesn't

know how to get her tongue quite right.

Like she,

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: oh, yes.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: been
fed a total mixed ration that has, that's

had her, her salt and minerals included.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Oh, yeah,

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
I don't know.

We, you know, we don't have a
lot of experience in that world,

so, but it's just fascinating.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: yeah, yeah.

Just have to observe her and make
sure she maintains condition.

See how it goes.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
not much I can do about it.

You can't force her to eat.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: Or yeah,
you can lead a horse to water,

but you can't make 'em drink.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
But with her calf, we give her a

little bit of barley and she takes
it from us and she, so her calf is a

heifer and is in fairly good condition

and I, you know, the future is in
the, the genetics future on, but

yeah.

But

Yeah.

they, they love the alfalfa.

We we're

totally new.

We're new to alfalfa.

There's not a lot of alfalfa in Maine
and, and that was a learning experience

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: oh, yes.

Yeah.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458: Wow.

It seems good stuff.

cal_2_04-19-2025_081458: It is.

It is.

Very good stuff.

Well, Nick and Sarah, really appreciate
you coming on and sharing about

your journey, your transition across
country and how things are going.

squadcaster-8j15_2_04-19-2025_081458:
Yeah.

You very much for having us.

Thank you very much for having us.

It's been been great talk to talk to you.

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