165. Silvopasture: Getting Trees Started Right with Austin Unruh
Speaker: On today's episode,
we are talking silvopasture.
Mainly focusing on getting your tree
started and off to a good start.
So we'll get started with the fast five.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: what's your name?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
My name is Austin Unru.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: And
Austin, what's your business's name?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: The name
of the business is Trees for Graziers.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Well,
that is really good because most of
us here would say we're graziers.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Perfect.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826:
And where are you located
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I'm in
Morgantown, Pennsylvania, so if anyone's
familiar, Lancaster County, a lot of Amish
and conservative Mennonites in our area.
We're in southeastern Pennsylvania,
so about an hour from Philadelphia.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: now,
is that the county where the
raw milk fight was going on?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: indeed.
the the Amos Miller, his son helped me
out on some tree plantings a couple times.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So
we have a couple of connections there.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
Very good.
And when did you get
interested in silvopasture?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
So I got started in the broader
scheme of agroforestry first.
So planting trees in an
agricultural context.
I started planting trees along
streams as a water quality practice
back in
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
And a couple of our first clients
were were grass fed operators, so
doing grass fed dairy in particular.
And they were interested in getting
trees established in their pastures.
I said, well, there's not many people
doing this, and I don't have great
means of getting these trees established
in an actively grazed pasture.
But let's try out a couple things.
So it was around 2019 and 2020 that
we started to experiment with means of
getting trees established in pastures.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, very good.
Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.
The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based
livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve
the land animals and our lives.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
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producers like you, learning from
their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.
Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.
This is the place for you.
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Speaker 2: For 10 seconds about
the farm and the podcast, we're
gonna talk about today's episode
with Austin from Trees for Grazers.
As you'll find out as you listen to this
episode, the information he's giving me
for my context, I'm a little bit late.
For some of you, it's going to
be timely, but if you're south
of me, it's going to be too late.
So Austin and I, the grazing grass and
trees for grazers are from partnership.
Grazing grass and trees for grazers.
We are going to partner to release
more of these episodes for you.
We already have it on the calendar
to record later this year to
get a a late summer episode.
And what I'd like for from you as.
So if you have any questions about SIL
Pastor that you want answered, send
them to me, cadillac grazing grass.com
and Austin and I will discuss those.
Um, I'm looking forward to this
because silvopasture is something I've
always wanted to do a better job of.
And, you know, explore the income
potential from having some SVO pasture.
But I haven't done a very good job.
I'm hoping this partnership with Austin
will help me do a better job on my farm.
And with that, let's get back to Austin.
I.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So you're, you're
starting to get to the point, you've got
a fair number of years to see how that
starting of trees and pastures are going.
But before we talk about that
why did you go into Agroforestry?
I.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Why did I go into agroforestry?
I wanted to do something outside.
I wanted to do something with my hands.
I wanted to do something where I could
leave a beneficial legacy and leave
and to know that I'm doing something
valuable for, for others, for the planet,
for all those things, for wildlife.
So that's what brought
me into Agroforestry.
I think Agroforestry is a
really neat combination and
integration of both conservation
agricultural production, right?
So
of those in the same package.
And that's what, that's
what intrigues me about it.
And you can do it on a real landscape
scale where you can create a more
productive environment economically,
but also a more ecologically diverse,
ecologically healthy environment.
So that's really, I think what, what
drew me to Agroforestry specifically.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: And when,
to be honest, I'm not familiar with
Agroforestry, but when you think about
that, is that growing wood or growing
forest for harvest for like pine
wood or other things along that line?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So
Agroforestry is a suite of practices.
So it encompasses forest farming, which
is like growing mushrooms and ramps
and that kind of stuff in the woods.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: it
also includes alley cropping, so growing
tree and tree crops in amongst your,
your row crops like wheat or corn.
Sy pasture, which is what we
focus on at Trees for Graziers.
Riparian buffers and windbreaks.
So that's the suite
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that
fall under the category of agroforestry.
And I initially got started in
riparian buffers, so stream streamside
forests is what I got started in.
There's a lot of pollution here
coming out of Lancaster County, going
out down into the Chesapeake Bay.
So there's a lot of effort
to plant trees along streams.
And then we, from there, we migrated
over to Silva Pasture as well,
although we still do a lot of
stream buffers in addition to that.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So when, when we
think about just on that riparian area, is
that, how far from your waterways are you
going with trees to provide that buffer?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: It
depends on the farm and it also depends
on the program that is funding it.
Some programs will say we are
gonna do a minimum of 35 feet.
From the
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Other programs will say, Hey, we'll
go out to 180 feet or 300 feet.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
you know, it's a little bit gray how
wide the riparian area actually is.
In reality, it's the more,
the better for water quality.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: you
can add, the more leaf matter you can
add, the more shade you can have for the
stream in our context, the better it is.
But you have to balance that out
with the needs of the farm as well.
in the area where, where land goes
for 30 to $50,000 an acre, you can't
be taking out 300 feet along side the
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right.
Yes.
S So how did you make the leap
or, or start being more aware
of graziers, obviously through
the land value is one reason.
I'm sure you had pushback from farmers
not wanting to go very far out there.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: yes.
Yep.
a very interesting way to combine
the, the, the conservation benefits of
on the landscape in an area where land is
at a premium, like literally at a premium.
So that you can get both the conservation
value of it and also continue to
be using that land productively.
So it was about like I said, it was about
20 18, 20 19 that some of our clients
started to, to want us to figure out how
to integrate trees into their pastures.
So it was just, I think,
two farmers to start out
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: And
I, but I realized pretty quickly that if
we could figure out how to successfully.
trees into a pasture without a whole
bunch of additional work for the
landowner, if we could figure that out.
The scale of applicability is huge, right?
Because there's
and millions of acres out there that
are in pasture where folks could
use additional trees spread out.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
I've been talking to my dad.
Just, we've had some wind of
late, little bit more than usual.
We, we have.
A lot of wind anyway.
But we noticed in one of the lots up here
by the barn, another tree's blown down.
I'm like, we've, we've
gotta plant some trees.
And he told me a while back, we were
talking, he says, I think we should build
some shade structure structures out in
the pastures with this shade crawl cloth.
And of course, I immediately
am thinking, why are we trying
to do one better than nature?
Why don't we just let nature handle that?
We get some trees planted out there
instead of buying all the products
and bring in here to make shade.
So
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
the upside of the shade cloth
is you can get shade right away.
Once you're done with that chore and you
created that shading structure, you're,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: true.
It's an immediate thing.
Yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: But
in the long term, the trees, the trees
will provide a one of a better shade.
Livestock tend to prefer to go under
trees because not only are they
getting shade, but they're also getting
cooling because the, the trees, like
through evapotranspiration, they're
actually cooling the air underneath.
So it's a better shade and you get
all kinds of additional benefits
right?
It's just that it takes a while
and that's, that's gonna be
throughout syllable pasture is
there's a lot of value to it.
But it takes a while to get there.
That's, that's, that's the key thing.
If we could plant trees and they're,
they're like an annual crop where we
get a yield off of 'em right away in
the first year, we would have trees
all over throughout our pastures
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
You know, isn't it that Chinese proverb
that says The best time to plant a tree is
20 years ago, the second best time today.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: today.
S indeed.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Was it with
those early farmers, was it that they
wanted trees out into their grazing areas
or their pastures, or was it kind of a
compromise when you're trying to get this
riparian buffer in and they're trying
to get the maximum amount of grazing.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Yeah, so the, the conversation that I
had with farmers is very different if
we're trying to do a riparian buffer.
Versus a s silver pasture with a buffer.
And usually we're, we're partnering
with a, a nonprofit group.
Like a nonprofit
the ones having a
conversation with the farmer.
They're the ones
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: here's
a funding pot that we have access to
that we can use to pay for this buffer.
But the, the thing for the farmer is that
they're, they're losing production because
they can't let their animals in there.
So they're
ground, they're losing crop
and ground, whatever it is.
And typically in our area, there's
there's the CREP program that will
pay the farmer a certain amount,
a land rental rate to take that
land out of production and put it
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: instead.
So that's, that's the trade off for the
farmer is you lose productivity, but you
a, a rental check or something else
that you're gonna get out of this.
In a silver pasture context, looking
at working with a farmer and saying.
We're going to increase your productivity
on your land because of less heat
stress, because of being able to drop
pods or fruits or whatever it is.
And we're also gonna get more ecological
value here and, and hopefully we can
find a group that's willing to bring
money because of that ecological value.
So it's a conservation group
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
or whoever it is that's willing to
bring money to reduce the cost of
investing in those trees for the farmer.
So it's a very different conversation.
I, I also don't try to, I don't twist
people's arms to do solo pasture.
There is enough interest in this
that I don't have to try to go
out there and convince people.
found that even though there's really
not a whole lot of Silva Pasture
being done in the United States,
like hardly any projects annually.
That if you can make it simple for folks
and say, look, we'll do this for you.
We'll, we will go out and
we'll find the funding as well.
We will do the planting.
We will source all the trees.
We'll make this as simple
as possible for you.
There's a whole bunch of people
where a silver pasture just
makes sense for their operation.
They've wanted do this
for a long time anyway.
They've just never gotten around to it.
And I think that's one of the most
common things is, look, there's always
a million things that need to be done
on the farm, and most of the things
needed to be done five years ago
and they're starting to fall apart.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: we're
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: like
that to-do list is pretty like keeps you
hopping without having to put the time and
the energy and the money into investing
in trees that aren't going to give you
any yield for let's say five years.
So that's where if we can come in and we
can do it for them, it, it makes it easy.
And there's a whole bunch
of people, like the people
listening here that are already.
This on this path of going for
grass fed regenerative, and they
get it, it makes sense to them.
Someone who's, who's running a CAFO
operation, I'm not gonna be talking to
them about let's doing, let's do Silva
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, right.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: there,
there are too, there are too many steps
away from from this making sense for them.
So really, I'm just talking to
folks who, who are right there,
who, and who get it, and where this
would make sense on their farm.
So it's typically not hard to convince
people to look into Silver Pasture.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
I, I would suspect it not, because
as I mentioned earlier to you,
civil pastor has brought up a
lot in conversations that I hear.
For, for us, we.
We attempted, I guess, about
10 years ago to plant, I don't
know, a hundred pecan trees.
and then we did a very poor job of
protecting them and getting them started,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
You're not one.
That's probably the rule rather
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: oh yeah,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: for,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: zero out of that.
We got some pictures of us actually doing
it, but, and, and we've talked since then.
Oh, we're gonna do that again
and we're gonna do a better job.
we are.
I, I actually think we did that in 17.
So here we are eight years later
and we haven't done anything.
We had, we did graph some trees,
but, if we would've got those,
we'd been so far ahead, we need to
go ahead and do something again.
Try to get on some kind of path.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
I, I would say that your experience
is the rule rather than the exception.
We've worked with quite a few farmers
who have done some small plantings and
typically they don't work out so well.
Planting trees even in a stream buffer.
Is challenging enough because you've
got the vegetation, you've got deer,
you've got voles rodents, rabbits all
kinds of things, droughts, like, there's
all kinds of things that are going to
conspire to kill your trees, but then
you put 'em into a grazing situation
and then you add like large ruminants
typically to all, and you still have
all those other things to deal with.
And it, it's just a, it's a challenging
thing and we've, we're fortunate
enough that we've been able to
work with enough farmers and, and
try this numerous times by now.
so by now it's 2025.
We've been at this for about five years.
Seriously.
Been at this for about five years and
we've, we've kind of figured it out.
We kind of have figured out the protection
methods, the the protocols that one
should put in place where we're getting.
90% success rates on our trees.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
With, with that you mentioned a whole
host of things that's working against you.
In our context, we added she and goats
to the enterprise to, to the equation
too, which caused us some issues.
In fact,
year we went to graph pecan trees,
thinking we would just go, we've
got some native groves that just
where they've grown and what we're
thinking, we need to manage 'em better.
So we go out to graph trees or we go
out to see what trees we have to graph.
We'd already decide we probably
can do about a dozen trees.
We go out there and we run into a problem.
We've been running sheep and goats for
about 10 years and what it's done that we
had never really paid attention to was.
We don't, didn't have
any young growth to graph
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Oh
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: everything
was getting too old, so, so last year
I tried to save some and then the
cows went and tore up some, but I
tried to keep the sheep and goats away
from some so I can get 'em growing.
I'm might have to do a
better job about that.
So that's probably a discussion
we should have as well.
But yeah.
W when you talk to farmers and they've
tried something little and it just
doesn't work, what are the main
things that caused it not to work?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
I think the, the, probably the
biggest challenge for folks is
protecting the trees from cattle
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: and
then the, the, the protection methods
that people use can often lead towards
other problems, like, trees being choked
out by competing vegetation or rodents.
And I'll explain.
So.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
The, the standard method I would
say for keeping cattle off of
trees is to fence out a big area.
So
a row of trees and you have a fence,
four or five feet on either side of
that row of trees, protecting those
trees from the cattle getting in
and, and browsing on those trees.
So what you're doing is you're
keeping the cattle out, but you
are also creating a large area
where grass has grown and grow up.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Mm-hmm.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
so you're losing productivity
and you're gaining a chore of
weed whacking or brush hogging.
But normally it's weed whacking
because you can't get in there
with a brush hog if you have, if
it's a permanent or semi-permanent
wire that you have up there.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Actually,
Austin, I wanna stop you right there.
Are you spying on me because I thought
you were in Pennsylvania, but this sounds
very familiar to what we've done before.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
It's not the first time it's happened.
So the grass grows up and
you gotta weed whack it.
Well, who's gonna weed whack
that in the middle of the summer?
Ain't nobody gonna do it.
You start out, when you plant it
and say, I'm gonna weed whack that
when the time comes and no one does.
And, and you have these trees and
usually they're, they're smaller trees
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: there's
not a whole lot of money on a farm.
So you put the small trees in and,
and in March when you plant them and
the grass is dormant, it looks great.
'cause those trees are
sticking up, they're two
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right.
You could see ' em.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
the grass is six inches tall.
And you're like, I'm, there's no
way I'm gonna lose these trees.
And then come August, when the
grass is five feet tall, you've
lost your trees completely.
So the trees are getting
outcompeted by these forages.
And that alone might kill them.
not enough you're creating
a great habitat for rodents.
And in our area, voles kill
more trees than cattle do.
So if your area has voles.
They're like a small mouse that
lives in, lives in the grasses.
And they love to chew on trees,
especially during the winter.
They love to chew on the bark
of trees, and they will kill so
many trees and then they'll laugh
at you while they're doing it.
So that's our republic enemy.
Number one is voles for our area at least.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: and, and
we are within the range of bowls.
I'm not sure.
I'm not familiar with them, so that's
where I need to be more observant.
But it looks like it, it heads
east to you west a little ways the
range west into Colorado, Wyoming,
north, into the edge of Canada.
It also looks like if you go very
much south of me, it's not a problem
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: based upon
on this one result from Google.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So I could be
completely wrong about this as well.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
who say like, they don't have vols
but a large portion of the country
is gonna have 'em, and they're gonna
be a, a, a very significant factor
that you don't even think about it.
'cause normally you don't see them.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
So the, I would say that's probably
the, the biggest contributor to
to failure of tree plantings.
So it, I've seen people plant trees
outside of their fences, like alongside
the, alongside the fence around the
house, around the farm or whatever it is.
And generally people have good success
there because they can mow up along it.
They don't have they don't
have cattle to project it from.
And so long as you can keep the
vegetation down, the tree has a
good, has a good chance, especially
if you can mulch around it.
Keep the vegetation down,
the tree's gonna do well.
It's just getting those trees in in
an active pasture that is challenging
when you use the, the fence out method.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
for cages as well.
So if people use cages to individually
protect trees, you're kinda gr getting the
same conditions where a lot of forages are
gonna grow up inside of that cage and are
gonna create a great habitat for rodents.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
And that's what I was thinking
with these trees that I'm trying
to protect my, my first thought.
The first thing I did last spring after I
figured out we didn't have any young pecan
trees was I identified two pastures where
I had pecan trees sprouted, and I didn't
let the sheep and goats in those areas.
The cattle still had access
and caused me enough damage.
They caused me more damage than I thought.
So my thought this year was I was just
gonna get like a goat panel and make
a cage around it, but it doesn't sound
like that's a really good solution.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So
here's what I would do with cages.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Is I think cages in and of
themselves, have that issue of, of
forages growing up inside of 'em.
But if you were to mulch the tree really,
really heavily let's say three, four
inches of mulch, the more the merrier.
And then you
around that such that the, the area
inside the cage is all mulched.
actually gonna be great
for the tree, I think.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
it's gonna, the mulch is gonna
conserve moisture, so it's
gonna be a benefit to the tree.
It's, you're not gonna get
vegetation coming up and competing
with the tree in that area.
So that's how I would do it.
Is, like you said, a, a goat
panel, a cattle panel, whatever
it is, whatever makes sense for
the livestock that you're running.
And but you need the mulch as, as
part of that, or I just, or you're
just gonna get too much competing
vegetation going on there with the tree.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So,
so that's a pretty simple way
to make a cage more effective.
Adding that mulch is that mulch
something you need to go back and reapply
six months or yearly or more often.
Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
typically don't.
On our plantings, our protocol when we do
our plantings is we put 10 gallons, so two
five gallon buckets of wood chip mulch.
And this is just straight up wood chips.
Don't, don't buy this stuff from
the garden center, just whatever
wood chips that you have access to.
typically
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: You find
them chipping trees down your road.
Go.
Go grab some.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Exactly, exactly.
So 10 gallons of wood chips around
the base of every tree is what we do.
We do it once.
It would be better for the tree
if we came back and reapplied it.
But that one time is the most
critical because it's when you first
transplant the trees that they're most.
Susceptible to, to to drought
drought in particular, and also
from other forages.
So we found that in our area,
the mulch breaks down to where
you have other grasses and stuff.
Coming up through it in a year to
two years is typically what it is.
More along the lines
of two years typically.
And in that time, the tree has
a great start and it has its
roots pretty well established.
So another round would be great, would
the tree would love it, but it's not
nearly as critical as that first round
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
Oh, okay.
Good to know.
Yeah.
So just continuing on that path
a little bit what would be a
better step than a cage and mulch?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
So here is our protocol that
we've developed is it starts
a six foot tall plantar tree shelter.
That's the, that's what we kind of
figured out works for us, it's worked
for everyone that we've worked with too.
So, so let's break that down.
The plantar tree shelter, it's a six foot
tall tube and a seven foot tall stake.
You drive it in a foot and there you go.
The, the stake is a fiberglass
steak, it's an electrical insulator
and it has some good flexibility.
So the nice thing about it is cattle can
rub up on it a little bit and it'll flex.
You don't want cattle to rub up
on it too much, and that's where
the electric fencing comes in.
So you protect the tree shelter
from cattle with electric fencing.
typically we're using.
of polywire and aluminum wire.
The two, two
ways that we do it, one is run a
single strand along a row of trees
at, at the height that you would
put a paddock division strand, at
knee height or whatever that is.
So that's, that's simple.
Very simple means of, of protecting
the trees and also defining a
paddock if you wanna do it that way.
The other thing that we're doing, and
we're doing more and more of this now,
is we're doing what's called an overpass,
where we are running the polywire at six
feet high along these row of trees so that
can freely move underneath and
get through this row of trees.
And then what we do is we attach
aluminum wire to that polywire up top
and we wrap that around the tree tube.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
the tree tube itself, the exterior
of the tree tube is electrified.
So if cattle rub up on it, they'll quickly
figure out that they shouldn't anymore.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So that
leaves you a, a more permanent
situation than if you're making
a paddock and, and running it and
your tree.
It allows you to go perpendicular to
your trees and multiple day moves.
They're still good.
But because you got that
semi-permanent or top wire with the
aluminum wire.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: It gives
the operators much more flexibility of
run their operation, how they
make their paddocks, how big
they make their paddocks.
So that's why we're doing
a lot more of that anymore.
I should also say about the height
of the tree, of the tree shelters.
So six foot is what we
recommend for cattle.
If you've only got sheep,
five foot should do.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: would
go with six foot just because they're ory.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes, they are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Since we're going down this path of
getting them started, how long, how
long do they stay in that tree shelter?
What are you looking at there?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Let's circle back around to that.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
to finish our protocols first.
So,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: so once
we have the tree shelter on, we'll want to
put a volgar around the base of the tree.
So the tree shelter itself is
around four inches in diameter,
which the tree to grow somewhat
inside of that tree tube.
The downside is it's a really nice place
for a vol to hang out, a vol or some
like a mouse to hang out inside of there.
And so what we do is we put.
A vol guard around the base of the tree.
Basically it's just a spiral guard that's
gonna stick pretty close to the tree
trunk so that there's no room for a vol
to get in there and, and girdle the tree.
They can't access the tree trunk itself.
So that's our insurance
policy against volts.
So just a
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
We've used a vinyl spiral guard
that they often sell for Buck Rub.
That's one product that we've used.
Right now we're shifting over to
using a, a mesh plastic mesh wrap that
planter makes, and we're just cutting
'em down to about eight inches long.
So that's what we do around
the tree to prevent vol damage.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Is that into
the ground or is that just at surface?
At level.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: into
the ground a little bit, that's great.
Oftentimes they don't really
go into the ground very well.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I.
What we do about below ground vol
activity is when we do maintenance,
we will put vol repellent in there.
And usually, so we, we have a
blend of castor oil and blood
meal that we put in there.
I can't say that we've
scientifically tested this.
We haven't done a controlled study,
but it's a cheap insurance policy if
we're already going around and checking
on all these trees in the fall, when
voles are about to go into dormancy
and and they're wanting to find a
place to, to ride out the winter we
dropped this this combination and, and
the castor oil specifically is sold
commercially for below ground rodents
like moles and that kind of thing.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
So we're, we're banking on the, the
volgar protecting from above ground.
Girdling and then the castor oil
and blood meal combination deterring
from below ground girdling.
So, as you can see,
voles are a real thing.
We've had to we've had to come up with
creative means of keeping them away, but
thankfully both of 'em are really cheap.
And then what we do is we will mulch
like I said, 10 gallons worth of wood
chip mulch and the more the merrier.
So 10 gallons is just what we have as
our company policy for whatever jobs that
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
If you're a farmer and you
have access to a whole bunch of
mulch, just layer it on there.
The trees will appreciate it around,
so we'll do that around the base of
the tree because there's a tube there.
So, some folks know to be about putting
a volcano of mulch up against the tree.
'cause we
to ' we don't want a whole bunch
of moisture in contact with the,
the bark, the trunk of the tree.
But because there is a tree tube
around the tree, you can put a whole
big volcano right up against the base.
That tree tube and it's perfectly fine.
And
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
it, you know, there's more mulch
right there around the closest to
the tree where it matters the most.
So that's how we do the mulch, and that's
that in the basis of our protocols that
we use on just about all of our planting.
So it protects, you're protecting
from cattle, you're protecting from
deer, you're protecting from voles
and you're protecting from drought
and and weed competition as well.
So all of your bases are covered.
You are, you're definitely
investing more per tree.
There's no way
it.
Like what, what we do as a
philosophy for our company is we
want a really high success rate.
there are folks out there, there's
philosophies where you put out
a whole bunch of trees and you
know that it's a numbers game and
just a lot of 'em won't make it.
We try to go the opposite
route where we say.
If I want to plant one tree and I
want to get one tree and I'm going
to, I know exactly what I need to do
in order to get that tree to survive.
So long as I'm starting
with a, a good tree,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
and I provide it everything that
it needs, it's gonna survive.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I think
probably we leaned towards that.
We were putting out a whole
bunch of trees and thought,
well, we hope they'll survive.
I much would've rather, we did a
little bit more proactive then,
so we did have them survive.
That'd been really good on, on the trees.
This tube, you're putting six foot tall.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yes.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Is, are you
planting saplings or trees that's already
that tall or does that still work if you,
you plant smaller ones because I think the
pecan trees we got were like 18 inches,
two foot.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
The standard is to use small trees
like, like you were saying, 18 inches.
They're used all the time in conservation
plantings where people are putting 12
inch trees inside of those tubes, and
fine.
There is, I will say that trees
do not grow as well inside of
tubes as they do out in the open.
they're constrained, they're
constricted to that four inches
of diameter or whatever it is.
They will grow taller faster, but
that they're healthier because
they're out of balance, because they
haven't been able to branch out.
So
like tree shelter manufacturers
will tell you, Hey, these trees
grow faster inside of a tree tube.
They grow taller, but they are,
they're significantly out of balance.
And by the time that they get
out, they're tall and lanky.
And then they need to, they need a
couple years to get the right ratio
of, of height to girth of that tree.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I
struggled with the same thing,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
Yep.
So all things, because all things
are being equal, I would rather
my trees grow outside of a tube.
because we're getting these trees
established in challenging environments
with deer, with cattle, all those things,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
the tubes come in so handy.
I will say that we are, as a company,
moving towards planting taller and
taller trees inside of our tree shelters
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
different reasons.
What it comes down to mostly
is we can take much better
care of a tree in a nursery.
And more economically too than
you can in a pasture setting.
So in a nursery,
got 20,000 trees in one, one small field.
Right?
And we can take very
good care of those trees.
We can take, we can keep all the
animals, all the wildlife away from them.
We can grow them in such a way that they,
they, they're growing out in the open.
They have they side branch, they
have a good good size, good diameter
and ratio with their, their height.
So that when we put them
in a tree shelter, they're
actually much more balanced.
And there's several years ahead.
I figure in a nursery we can grow
a tree much faster than you can
in a pasture, just because we can
control a lot more of these factors.
I think we can
a two years headstart by planting
a tree that's six foot tall.
It's gonna be more uniform.
It's gonna give you the results that
you want much quicker and more uniformly
than if we're planting trees that are
12 inches, 18 inches, whatever it is.
And you're putting more money into
the tree, but you're saving money
on aftercare and you're getting
to your goal, whether that's shade
or pods or fruit, much quicker.
I believe that if we, there's a
certain point at which you can also
save money on the tree shelter.
Like if you put out a tree that's eight
foot tall then you can start to save on
the tree shelter because you probably
don't need a sta, you don't need a steak.
You can probably get away
with not having a tree tube.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, we got.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
to experiment with this of
how exactly we would do it.
And it's gonna depend on the, the producer
or their context, but there'd be many
times where if you put out a six foot tall
tree or an eight foot tall tree, you can
probably save money on the tree shelter.
And so you're even on that
additional investment in the tree.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
Yeah, and and I know anytime you talk
to farmers, I know with our case we're
trying to do it cheaply and get a lot in.
Of course, hindsight's 2020.
If we'd gone in with that same amount
of money and did a few trees, whether
that was even one and we had one
survive, that'd be one more than
what we got out of all that work.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
you take that money that you would've
put into a hundred trees and you
put into 10 trees or 20 trees
and you, you save a lot of time.
A lot of a lot of money on all of that.
And you, you just know
that you're gonna succeed.
I, I think most people would, would
much rather have a, quite a guarantee,
but a really, really, really high
chance that what they're doing is
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
and know that that's gonna work
rather than rolling the dice.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
I, I agree.
When, when we think about, did you
get everything covered on y'all's
method and what you do there.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: we
you were asking about how long
to keep those tree shelters
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
So, it's ended up being longer
than what we had anticipated.
So initially
we thought it was gonna be, say, two
or three years for the steak and then
soon after, for the, for the tree tube,
what we've now figured is the, the tree
tube we're, we're using as a single
use product or we're figuring it's
use product.
It's probably gonna be
on for five years or so.
It all depends on
of growth of the tree.
So our oldest project now is going
into, its fifth, no, sorry, sixth year.
And we have improved our methods.
Significantly since that one.
So I think it'll be, it'll be interesting
to see how fast we can grow our trees
and how quickly we can re remove our
tree tubes with projects where we
have these more updated protocols.
But I'd say figure on like five years.
If it's all fast growing trees like
your black locust or hybrid poplars,
those can probably be removed in.
Two years, three years.
The challenge is when you have a row
of trees, when you've got some big,
fast growing trees, and then you have
some slower growing trees in there.
Let's say a persimmon or an oak
or a hickory that's just kind
of struggling to get established
and it's new, it's new home.
Most of those are tap rooted
species, so they put a lot of
energy into that taproot, and
they're very slow to put vertical
energy into their vertical growth.
So they just take a while longer
to grow and get, get to be the size
where you can remove that tree tube.
So you might be have a case where
your, your hybrid poplar is already.
Eight inches in diameter
and your persimmon is still
only two inches in diameter.
You still need
or one inch in diameter.
that's another reason for us as a company
to move more towards planting taller
trees because I would rather get my
persimmon out there as nice tall trees
or my, my oaks as taller trees and
know that, look, I've just gained three
years on those because we're gonna get
much, we're gonna get more uniformity
and we're gonna get a faster time to
when we can remove those tree shelters.
Another thing that I caution folks about
is to don't take the stakes out too early.
I made that mistake where I was trying
to reuse steaks 'cause they're about
half the cost of the tree shelter.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: through
it during the winter and I took off.
All of the fiberglass stakes from
the trees that I thought were big
enough to remove those stakes.
then when the spring came and the trees
leafed out those, those leaves were
all, there were additional weights
high up on the tree, and they were
also little tiny sails where when the
winds caught them, they pushed them
all and they're all moving in the,
they all leaned in the same direction.
So I had to come back and
replace hundreds of these stakes,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
set these trees back up.
And so I've tried not to make that
mistake since then and waited until
the tree is definitely large enough.
There is a, it's a very narrow window
between when the tree is large enough to
stand up on its own without the stake and
when it's big enough to swallow the stake
and just, and circle it with its roots.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
that is a challenging thing.
We've messed around with a
couple different methods of.
Getting the leverage that you
need to yank that, that stake
up from an encircled roots.
We'll have to do a video on that one.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
Yeah.
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cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: when you
think about a tree that's big enough to
survive without the, the tree shelter
and stake, are you looking at, you want
a certain diameter to, to determine that.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yes.
Yeah.
So this on the stake, really
what we want is we just want
the tree to stand up on its own.
Because
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
when they come out of that tube, like
we were saying earlier, they're very
lanky and they're top heavy, so they're
liable to lean over really hard.
on the tube.
We want to protect that tree from browse.
want to protect it
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
we want to
it from stripping.
So cattle coming through and stripping
off the bark can be very dangerous
to young trees that we just spent
three years getting them established.
I don't wanna take the tube off
too early and have young stock come
through and strip the bark off.
I've, I've
happen more than I would like to.
so what we do now is we
open up that tree tube.
So we slice it down the middle and we
open it up so that the tree can breathe.
The bark can breathe, we can get more
air in there, and we can harden off that
bark before we take the tree tube off.
So we're gonna leave it on for another
couple years, even after we've cut it down
the middle and we've opened it up, but we
still keep it attached around the tree.
And then we just leave it in place.
There's really not any downside
to leaving it in place.
If it's loose, we have found that.
The tree is starting, is growing, such
that it's starting to push out the tube.
And then there's so then there is
a spot at, at the base of the tree
where the tube is, and it's right
in contact with the, the trunk.
And if you get leaves or debris and then
water in there, it can start to rot.
particular with black locusts and
some with honey locusts as well,
some of our tree species don't seem
to have too much issue with it.
Like a hybrid willow, A hybrid poplar
probably because they're used to very wet,
high organic matter situations anyway,
but the, the, the locust, the black locust
and the honey locust, they were showing
more rot at the base in those contexts.
So what we did was we're gonna split
up the, the bottom of that tree tube
so that it can breathe and, and that
debris and the, the water can escape.
Again, one more reason that we're
looking to plant taller trees so
that we don't have that issue.
It's not, it's not the biggest issue.
It can be very well be prevented.
It just takes the right care.
And that's why for our projects,
we, we send out a crew twice a year,
every year for the first four years
to do maintenance, to do preventative
maintenance, like stuff like that on
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I.
Oh yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
that we get the, the highest
level of success for our clients.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, very good.
Very interesting, very valuable
to know this information.
If you're starting your trees,
if you've got some trees,
you're getting ready to start.
When should you be planning them?
I guess that's the end of the question.
I actually was going on with
it, but that's actually all
I need to ask right there.
When should you be planning them?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: them?
So.
The best time to plant a tree when the
trees are dormant ground is not frozen.
typically will go dormant around
November, December, depends on
where in the country you are.
for us, the ground rarely
freezes during the winter.
This winter was an exception.
We had like two solid months
of ground being frozen,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: for us.
But typically we can plant
pretty much through the winter.
So it, it depends on where
you're at in the country.
Some nurseries, like there's one
nursery that we're buying from
that they just started to, to dig.
And we're at the end of March
right now as we're recording this,
whereas other nurseries down in
Georgia, they've been, they, they
had their stuff dug a long time ago.
So a lot of it depends on where
you're sourcing your stuff from.
yeah, it, it can be a
little bit challenging too.
To coordinate the, the the
purchase, and the arrival of trees.
Depending on where you are in the
country and where you're sourcing
your trees from, that can be a
of a headache at times.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: if you're
not able to do it during that
optimal time, is there, is there much
drawback to doing it a different time?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Don't
do it during this, during the summer.
No.
You, you deal with more
drought, more hot weather.
A a tree doesn't want to come from being
refrigerated, which, if you're going
to get a, a bare root tree a little bit
late, it's gonna be in refrigeration
probably from the company that you get
it from, and then it's gonna go into,
if you don't want it to go into 90
degrees and sunny for, for weeks on end.
Right.
You don't
stress
like that.
So typically we just say
stick for bare root trees.
This is stick within that
season where the tree is dormant
and the ground isn't frozen.
And you're in your, your
mild weather, so nice.
it can get down to freezing.
That's not a problem.
But then you don't want it to
get super hot and dry and sunny.
Like those are the things that
dry out trees much faster.
You can extend your
season with potted trees.
The challenge is that those are, they're
more expensive, they're harder to ship.
So if you have certain particular
things that you want, it's
oftentimes harder to get those.
so typically for our syllable
pasture plantings, we're really
just using a combination of
bare root trees and live stakes.
And live stakes are dormant
of willows or poplars or.
The couple other species where this
works, where you can put a stick in the
ground and it'll make its own roots.
I wish every tree did
that, but most trees don't.
But there's a couple trees that
work well in a Silva Pasture
and it, it does quite nicely.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Just on
that do Bodark or OSCE joins Head
app Hedge Apple, will they do that
or are you familiar with them?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
I don't believe that they will.
I am, I am familiar with them.
think primarily you're gonna be
establishing those from seed.
We have a grafted variety that
we're just messing around with.
We don't have it for sale yet.
It's called a white shield and
that's one that I would be interested
in clonally propagating more.
It's a it's a thornless hedge apple Osage.
And so you kinda get the best of really,
really hard rot resistant wood, and
you don't have to deal with the thorns.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
The, for me reason I bring 'em up,
I find those trees very fascinating
and I always think I'm gonna try and
cut some of the, the younger branches
off because they just shoot up so
many and see if they could root.
But I, I just never have yet.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
mean, try it now is probably
the right time to try it.
But I wouldn't hold my breath on on
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
Yeah.
With getting your trees into the
ground, I know in ity we're moving
away from chemicals, we're moving
away from bringing fertilizer in.
Are you doing any chemicals or
fertilizers with the trees to
help them establish themselves?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: We are
not, most of our clients are organic.
Whether they are certified organic or
they're just using organic practices,
we don't really, other than for, for
sites that are not organic, not certified
sometimes we'll use a, a root dip.
Which has a
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: That
it just helps put more moisture right
around the right around the roots for when
the tree is first getting established.
Other than that, no,
it's very, very simple.
We don't recommend
fertilizing trees initially.
Just get, just let 'em get
established, make sure that
they have plenty of moisture.
Make sure in the, the wood chips
are establishing more of that michal
fungal soil biology right around there.
So that helps the trees establish as well.
So just make sure that the trees
are well taken care of that way.
And and don't try to push them with
fertilizers right outta the gate.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, very good.
The other thing that seems to be,
or, or big thing, I blame the trees
I plant in my yard on why they're
not su successful, and that is water.
We get dry.
So on these young trees, how much water
should they be getting and at what point
do we step in and provide water to 'em?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Yeah, I mean, it's gonna depend
so much on species and context.
So
gonna want a whole lot more water
than a honey locust or in mesquite.
In our context here in
southeastern Pennsylvania, we're,
we're fortunate enough that we
don't have a lot of drought.
I say that even though we've had
drought the last couple years during
kind of critical times during the
spring and during the summer and,
and the fall, we've had some really
long stretches for us of drought.
Typically we do not, we don't
water, we don't set up irrigation.
Most farms around here are not
really set up for irrigation,
especially grazing operations.
So we don't.
Irrigate.
Occasionally we will supplemental, do some
supplemental watering a tank on the back
of a side by side or something like that.
It's a lot of work.
It's,
of hassle to do that.
So typically we don't,
mulching is your best watering
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826:
The best way to solve that.
Yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
that you can do is mulching.
The, the challenge there is if you
plant when the ground is dry and it
stays dry, your mulch isn't gonna do
anything for you then because there's no
moisture for it to conserve in the soil.
So that's, I think, the main context
where I would, would water those trees
after I plant them and then mulch it
really good so that you can conserve
that moisture as much as possible.
And then do a rain dance.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
Now one thing I know going to Tulsa,
we, we crossed the Vergus River and
there's lots of pecan trees around the
Fergus River and when they plan them, or
this one orchard, I see a whole bunch.
They have buckets out there
at the base of each tree.
is that for us who experience
drought a little bit more?
Is that something we should be looking
at, or do you think it's going to be the
mulching and we just monitor that We can
get by with just a little supplement?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: you
can probably still get by with just
a little bit of a supplement, but
you can provide the merrier, so if,
if it makes economic sense for you
as a, and you have the right setup to
do a bucket with a little hole in the
bottom, I think that's a great option.
In our, in our context, we've been
able to get by with not a whole lot.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: yours,
I would say, you're gonna be drier.
You're gonna on the whole need to provide
a little bit more care for those trees,
particularly in the moisture category.
So I'd be.
thoughtful about when I plant what
I'm doing to conserve moisture.
So you might want to do gallons of
wood chips just as an extra precaution.
And you might say, I'm gonna
plant my trees in December.
I'm assuming that you don't really
have a whole lot of ground freezing.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: We, we do not,
if it occurs, we're all hibernating.
We usually don't get too much of that.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So
if you can get trees from a nursery
in December and plant them during the
winter time when they have plenty of
time to get themselves settled in, right,
nicely they don't need, they don't need
any moisture during the winter, right?
Because they're not, they're not
transpiring during the winter.
You've got plenty of time to get
your mulch settled in, right?
Capture all of that moisture that's
gonna follow, that's gonna fall.
Anything that's gonna fall during
the winter you're capturing.
And then it's in a really good space when
you're going into the growing season.
Whereas if you were to try, if you're
pushing it and you wanted to get things
planted in April and things are already
starting to warm up and maybe you have
a dry spell and the soil isn't all that,
it doesn't have much moisture in it
and you put your trees in and there's
not a lot of moisture in there, you're
just setting yourself up for more work.
You can still
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
If you provide the water, but
providing water is, is a real chore.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So Austin,
what I'm hearing is, like I told
you earlier, I think about getting
you on the podcast too late.
I should have had you on back November
and had this, and then I'd been
gung-ho got some trees in the ground.
Yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: It is
getting pretty late right now for you
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
planting yet this year.
Yep.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: The, the other
thing on that moisture and needs is that
something, if we get into a drought to
worry about the first year, is the second
year the tree gonna be okay without
us being really concerned about it?
Or do we still need to
be pretty concerned?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
second year the tree is gonna be much
better established especially and
in your context where you are drier.
The upside of that is your mulch
is probably gonna be, is probably
gonna stay in good condition longer,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
as much moisture to break it down.
So your mulch is probably gonna
continue to provide that additional
moisture right around the base of the
tree where it needs it the most into
that second year, potentially even
into the third year in your context.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Very good.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: But
it really is those first, that first
growing season that's the most critical.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah, yeah.
Hey, Austin, I'm trying to think
as I'm run through planting
trees in my mind, trying to
think is there anything I missed?
And I'm sure there is, but in my mind,
I'm not thinking of anything right now.
Can you think of something I
should have asked that I didn't?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
I think we definitely hit
the most, the key things.
So the, the protection from livestock,
the protection from, from drought and,
and loss of moisture from voles, the
timeframe to take the tree shelters off.
And that really is something that we're
still, we're still messing around with.
We, we also talked about kind
of alternatives where I think
cages would be a solid option
if you provide a lot of mulch.
With, with that caveat.
And like a, just a cattle panel and two
T posts seems like a good way to go.
It is expensive, like material
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826:
Oh yeah, it would,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
probably gonna run you 50 bucks.
Whereas in the tree shelters, even though
they might run 10 bucks, they start to
look really really affordable when you
start to compare them to cattle panels.
Although the nice thing about cattle
panels is you can reuse them indefinitely.
It's a very, very simple thing to do.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
And to be honest, I plan on going out
there and identifying a few saplings that
are coming up and doing the cattle panels.
So I'm glad with the, or
goat panels with the mulch.
I'll have to add that factor, but
it's because I have the panels here.
It's no cost.
It's just labor for me.
Yeah.
But I can fully see if you're going
out and buying them, maybe you
should be looking at the tubes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
and the, the other thing is that
the tubes work really nicely in
a context where you're planting,
maybe it's 20 trees, 40 trees per
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
If you're only gonna do a couple
trees per acre, you, it's hard to
span that, that long of a distance
with your electric fencing, right?
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that's
where cattle panels make more sense, maybe
some way of protecting trees individually
so that you can, and if you're only
doing a couple trees per acre, the cost
doesn't add up near as quickly either.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: True.
Yep.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: And
that's a great way to start for folks.
It's a very simple yeah, very simple.
Low risk means of starting with
planting trees in your pasture
with that, with material that a lot
of farmers have on hand already.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
And we like to reuse the
stuff out of our junk pile.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
There we go.
It justifies having a junk pile, right?
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right?
Right.
Are you a truly a farmer if
you don't have a junk pile?
That's, that's maybe the discussion.
Austin, it's time that we move
on to our famous four questions.
Same four questions we
ask of all of our guests.
Our first question, what is your favorite
grazing grass related book or resource?
And I know we're looking at this through
the context of Sywell Pastor, and
I'm guessing it has not changed from
four years ago, but we'll find out.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
has not, is still tree crops.
So tree
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: It has not.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Yep, yep.
The book written back in the 1920s.
It is still my favorite go-to book
in order to see how tree crops
were used, across the country and
across the world back in the, the
early part of the 19 hundreds.
It's still an inspirational book for me.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Very good.
And you know, after we, we recorded
the episode four years ago, I
went out and bought that book.
So I believe it's should
be on my, my shelf.
It may be on a different shelf.
I did go through and read it.
It's very interesting
and I really got gung ho for a while,
but I didn't get anything done.
So,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Maybe time it'll be,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: maybe
the second time will help.
I,
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
should reschedule another
episode to go out in November.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: we should
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: one in
November so that you get all, all excited
to do your tree planting then, rather than
right now, when we're going into summer.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Exactly, exactly.
Our second question.
What's your favorite tool for the farm?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
I think four years ago I probably
said it plant a tree shelter.
And that's still probably the,
the best tool that I have.
other than talking about trees themselves.
And we didn't talk at all about trees
or genetics or anything like that.
There's a lot of
there.
That would be its whole
own podcast series.
But as far as a, a tool yeah, that six
foot tall planter tree shelter with a
plastic tube and the fiberglass steak.
Very, very useful for getting
trees established in the pasture.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
Very good.
And what would you tell someone?
Just getting started?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Start small and start now.
So.
Make your mistakes on a small scale
and you, you will make mistakes
out what works on your farm.
It's often easier to go out and do that
with 10 trees and see what works, see what
doesn't work, make your mistakes in a, in
an inexpensive way, rather than going out
and planting or a thousand trees at once.
Right.
the costs tend to add up with every
zero that you put in at the end of that.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
Excellent advice.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
go from there.
And, and the sooner that you can
get started, the sooner that you're
gonna start to get some feedback
on what works and what doesn't.
And then you can you can
use that and integrate that
feedback into the next rounds.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah, very good.
Excellent advice there.
I, I love that simplicity of start small.
Start now.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Mm-hmm.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Need a shirt?
Says start small.
Start now.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Actually.
We start, we should start selling that
in our merch shop that we don't have yet
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
Yeah.
There you go.
Our.
Fourth question, where can
others find out more about you?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: at our
website, which is trees for graziers.com.
We have articles, we have tree
shelters, we have trees when those
are in season, all kinds of resources
of available on our website.
We, we really lean hard into the education
side of syllable pasture because there's
just so much to be learned about it.
And so little information
available out there.
So there's just a ton of resources.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Very good.
And we have one final question
that I didn't warn you about.
Do you have a question for me?
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Do I have a question for you?
Let's see here.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Huh?
I'm quite, I'm curious, do you, do you see
honey locusts in your area of Oklahoma?
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
And everyone hates 'em.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Mm-hmm.
I mean,
is valid.
I understand why.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I, I know
from our last, our first episode, we,
we recorded you were talking about
the, the nutritional qualities of
honey locust pods and tree crops.
Talk about that as well.
So I got some land lease that's just a,
well, it actually connects to that and
the co company had reclaimed this land
and put in a whole bunch of honey locusts.
And I was excited for that.
But when I gained access to the
land, someone had sprayed them all.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
Oh, really?
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Now, now they
only sprayed the ones that got put in.
There's a whole bunch that's
grown volunteering the.
that they didn't dig or reclaim.
And actually those need thin some,
so, but I do have honey locusts
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
better or worse.
Right.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826:
for better or worse.
Yeah.
There's, there's negatives
and positives there.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that's
where the genetics are so important
for a honey locust, and we've, that's
the whole other conversation that we
could get into about the work that
we're doing on, on that side of things.
but I'm, I'm, I'm curious how
far one can push the boundaries
of honey locusts because,
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I
know of a cultivar that was discovered
way up north in New York state.
I know I've been sent trees or I've
sent, been sent pods from up Minnesota,
and in the book Tree Crops, or No,
out, it was in another resource,
another old resource that I read where
they were seeing honey locust trees.
Out, in, out in Colorado
actually by the Garden of the
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
So very, very dry, very arid areas.
So amazing area that they can cover.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I pulled
up from USDA Forest Service.
They show honey, honey locusts
being fully within the eastern half
of Oklahoma and Texas and Kansas.
But Colorado is west there.
And of course, you know, as we introduce
things, the range grows and I'm not
sure how often these maps are updated.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826:
I know of, of, trees.
Well, outside of the boundaries
of maps that I've seen.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826:
Oh yeah, I imagine so.
Because they're very easy to grow here.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
Yep.
They grow.
Well, they're, they are
definitely an early succession
species, a pioneering species.
They can take a lot of drought.
I've seen, I've seen a honey locust
in very, very droughty dry areas, but
then also seen them growing out of,
growing out of a lake, like completely
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: yes.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: And
it was growing out of a a, of a lake.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I don't
think I've, I haven't seen any
growing with really wet feet.
Most of it's Dr.
Drier area, but I mean, that doesn't
mean they don't, I just haven't
seen it in in those spots that I
have a little bit of water standing.
Typically.
I have willows that take over there.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, Austin, really appreciate
you coming back on the podcast.
been too long since you were on here,
so let's not go so long next time.
austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
Well, I look forward to
our next conversation.
Thank
me again.
Cal.
cal_2_03-28-2025_120826:
Thank you, Austin.
Cal: Thank you for listening to this
episode of the grazing grass podcast,
where we bring you stories and insights
into grass-based livestock production.
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Don't miss out.
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