Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

Speaker: On today's
episode, we have Eric Czaja.

We discuss his journey to Regenerative
rancher and the Regenerative Grazing

Open Air Lab that he's working on.

It is a proof of concept
within the US Army, so

it's very interesting,
so you want to listen.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: we'll
get started with the Fast five.

What is your name?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Eric Czaja

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
Eric, what's your farm's name?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: we call it
the Regenerative Grazing Open Air Lab.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Very interesting
and that should hook a lot of people.

Wait till we talk about it

later.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yep.

Great.

Acronym R Goal.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yes,

it is.

Makes it easy to remember.

At least remember the acronym

and then you gotta think about it, the
words in there, where are you located

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: We're
in San Luis Obispo, California.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: and
what species do you graze?

Or what livestock do you graze?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
It is cow calf pairs.

So we graze about 140 pairs,
primarily black Angus.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, very good.

And when did you start grazing animals?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I started
back in 2018 is when we started very

much on the, the homesteading level of,

you know, few cows had turkeys,
had pigs, had chickens.

But right now we're strictly,
we're strictly doing the cattle.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based

livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve

the land animals and our lives.

I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,

challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from

their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.

Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.

This is the place for you.

You're growing more than grass.

You're growing a healthier
ecosystem to help your cattle

thrive in their environment.

You're growing your livelihood by
increasing your carrying capacity

and reducing your operating costs.

You're growing stronger communities
and a legacy to last generations.

The grazing management
decisions you make today.

impact everything from the soil beneath
your feet to the community all around you.

That's why the Noble Research
Institute created their Essentials

of Regenerative Grazing course to
teach ranchers like you easy to follow

techniques to quickly assess your forage
production and infrastructure capacity.

In order to begin
grazing more efficiently.

Together, they can help you grow
not only a healthier operation,

but a legacy that lasts.

Learn more on their website at noble.

org slash grazing.

It's n o b l e dot org
forward slash grazing.

Speaker 2: For my 10 seconds today.

Last week I went to the Okie Homesteading
conference in Pryor, Oklahoma.

I.

Lots of people there is very interesting.

I enjoyed it.

I also got to talk with Todd
and Carson from Redmond.

I really appreciate the conversation,
spending time with them.

I did indulge myself a little bit
and got a cheese chocolate cheesecake

on a stick way too much food,
but it was, it was really good.

Anyway, enough of that.

Let's, let's get back to Eric.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Eric

getting started growing up,
did you grow up with livestock?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: no, not at all.

Grew up in town.

I grew up in Wisconsin, so

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
Oh, land of cheese.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: yeah.

Yeah.

I'm a cheese head.

Definitely a, a Packer fan, but we
saw a lot of, you know, typical dairy

operations, you know, confinement,
dairy operations, and you drove

past them and you didn't wanna
spend any longer at them, you know?

And but we all.

Bailed hay, you know,
bailed alfalfa in the

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: cleaned
stalls and gutters in the summer to,

you know, have that summer income.

So I, I wanted to kind of get away
from it as, as far as I could actually.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
I, I understand that.

So, So, did you get outta high
school and go into the military?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

Well, right outta high school I
did ROTC, reserve Officer Training

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: so they'll,
they'll pay for you at college.

That was kind of the deal.

My parents encouraged me to go, but
said, you gotta find a way to pay for it.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

It turns out

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: And that
ROTC works out Good for that.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: it was great.

Yeah, it was great.

I don't think I would've graduated
without ROTC because they're also a

little bit of a, a big brother kind
of mentoring you throughout that

time and making sure I kept my head
on and, and graduated so I could.

Commission and then, then you, you start
off as an officer, you start off as a

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: in the Army.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: What
was your major in college?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Oh,
it criminology and law studies

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Interesting.

But I just didn't wanna take math,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
running away from math courses.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Try
to try to avoid the math.

Yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Very good.

So you go into the military.

When did you get interested into tive ag?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: It wasn't
until we had, I suppose I'd been in the

army for about eight years and we were
looking at putting down a, some roots,

you know, we moved around quite a bit, but

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: we figured
that in Fort Bragg, North Carolina is

where we could, we could stay for a while.

It's interesting, people
call it homesteading.

When you stay at a
station for a while, and

there's so many, you know, Fort
Bragg has so many units at it that

it's, it's conducive to just kind
of bouncing from one unit to another

without having to pick up and, you
know, the, the kids can kind of get

into a community, you know, your spouse

gets friends.

And so it was, it's kind of a
cool, cool spot where you can stay.

And so we bought some property and it
was just a bunch of scrubby scrub po

scrub oaks and, and spindly pine trees.

Like not even pulp wood,
pine trees, you know,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: you
could barely walk through it.

And turns out like equipment is
pretty expensive, heavy equipment

to come out and do some clearing.

So I was out there with my chainsaw
just about clearing all I could just to

get some, some wire in there so I could

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
bring, so I could bring in pigs

so they could do some clearing.

I had a friend who had some
awesome about hogs and he said,

oh, these will do a great job.

You know, we can sprinkle some
cracked corn down there by the base

of some of these pine trees and
they'll uproot, uproot 'em for you.

So that's kind of how it, how we really
started was I just wanted to clear some

land so I could have shooting lanes.

Actually, that's, that's really,

really what I wanted.

I'd be able to, I had a berm out
there and I thought, oh, I get some

shooting lanes and pigs will do it
for me, and then we'll, we'll have

a bunch of pork in the freezer.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: So when you
bought that land, was that the main

goal that you thought, gives me an
outdoor area, I can do some shooting,

and then the pigs were kind
of the solution to, or the

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Exactly.

Well it

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

The method to your solution?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

And then it was just kind of cool
because we, we had used those pigs

and then we had a lot of ticks,
you know, and sugars and a lot of

mosquitoes and a lot of other insects.

And we thought, well, chickens could.

Kind of just patrol the house, you
know, we'd just get some chickens and,

and then we started, I started cutting
down more trees and we started growing

all this grass, and I thought, I
didn't really wanna mow all this grass.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Created more work for you.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

I'm like, what am I doing here?

Let's get some cows out here to
start eating some of this grass.

So it was kind of like these one
things just kinda led to another.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's kinda like that chicken math deal.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah, exactly.

My wife loved it.

It, I, before I would leave on a, on
a, on a trip or something like that,

she, I'd, I'd leave her with a, a
present, you know, to, to remind me of

it, whether it was a cow or a pig or

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yes.

Yeah,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: of
chickens, I would, oh, all right.

I'm leaving it a few days.

See you later.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: there you go.

On those first journeys into livestock,

were you raising them all for
your own consumption at that

time, or did you sell some out?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: We
really were just raising for our

own, it wasn't until about like

year three.

I think it was year three.

It was when we started, you know,
enough friends and neighbors had

been like, we want some of this.

And

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I kind
of was like, well that's, it was

so, I mean, it meant a lot to me.

I almost felt weird, like putting
a dollar value to it, you know?

'cause I

wasn't doing it on scale, you know?

So then it's sort just being like, well,
we'll, we'll raise one extra steer,

or, you know, we'll, instead of doing
two hogs, we'll do four, you know,

and, and we'll sell to the neighbor
just to cover the butcher and the feed.

And,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: and so
that's kind of how we, that's, that's

about as big as we got out there.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Did you stick to just the hogs,
the cattle, and some chickens?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: We did turkeys
which we really, really enjoyed the

turkeys.

Just some of 'em didn't last as long as
others, depending on their temperament.

know,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: some went a
little bit quicker and maybe didn't I.

Didn't last until Thanksgiving.

Gosh, I'm trying to think
of other things we did.

That was really, that was really about it.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: And were
you, were you using some like

saladin style chicken tractors?

Or did you just have
'em in a coop in a pen?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Well,
the layers just to coop that

we moved very infrequently.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: but the
chicken tractor for the meat birds,

we moved that, you know, every day.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And we had

a really cool, I actually, a, a
neighbor was selling a chicken tra,

like one of those prefabbed real

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
chicken tractors.

I couldn't even remember the, the brand
name of it, but it was, it was awesome.

You know, we used that and that,
that was really cool to see.

In fact, there was a day where I was outta
town and so the chickens got left there

for, it was probably two or three days.

And so I came back and I was like,
Hey, that needed to be moved.

So I pick up, move 'em and there's
just like, it looks like a black mat,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: of
chicken manure and just matted grass.

Well, the next year, I mean that thing,
that spot was like black, green, you know

that, that much nitrogen there it was.

It was cool looking.

It ended up being

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: It didn't
grow anything for a while, but once it

did grow it was, it was pretty neat.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah, it
was a little too hot at the beginning,

but boy, it, it took off after that.

Yeah.

And chickens are great for that.

As we move larger animals around,
sometimes we don't see the benefit

quite as much as just having some
small, a small chicken tractor

out there and moving it daily.

Two weeks.

You can just see each day's move.

It's just crazy.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: yeah.

It is, it's, it's pretty gratifying,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: It is.

Yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: these, you
know, when you get a hundred, 150, 200,

I know there's people who are doing a
whole lot more and doing bigger moves.

You don't necessarily see that
unless you're going to the

polywire looking left and right,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: to see that
change, to give you some feedback.

But yeah, it is, those little
chick chickens are great.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, they
are With your pigs and, and cattle.

I know the cattle were a little bit
later where you're using electro netting

and Tim poly wire with your cows.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
Well, for the, for the pigs, we

did actually poultry netting.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, okay.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
I used was Poultry netting.

and never, I mean, we did, I wish I knew.

I mean, probably, I mean, we
did five seasons, five years.

So what we'd do is we would get pigs.

It was just in North Carolina, so I
would wanna buy it, you know, at the,

the last frost is when I would buy
the feeders and then try and have 'em

finished out before, just, just after.

Halloween when everyone was getting
rid of their pumpkins, that was

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I'd go
to all the neighbors and grab up

all their pumpkins, feed 'em to
the pigs, and that was their dean.

Wormer, you know, a couple weeks as
we get ready to go to the butcher.

But the poultry netting was great
and we never had any, any issues

with them getting out except

for we had one, one Duroc.

My daughters had named him Stinky Pete.

We would sometimes, you know, the
fence would get turned off and not

turned back on, and he was pretty
smart and he picked up with his

mouth, picked up one of the fiberglass
posts, laid it down, and walked in.

He was in the, my wife opened
the garage door and he was in

the garage eating chicken food,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: which he was
out walked, walked him right back in.

But yeah, that was really,
that was the only escape.

Other than that, that pulter
netting stuff was great.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

And did you just have one re one
roll of it that you were using?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
No, we had quite a few rolls.

And then in, and then in between
we would run Polywire, so two

strands of polywire to even like further
subdivide the pa quote unquote pasture.

It was just

the woods.

That's where we put the, the
pigs was just in our, all that

pine, all those piney woods.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

And that makes sense.

Really, when you going through any
amount of trees and stuff, it'd

be hard to just make a, a little
pin with one row to get it done.

Yeah.

You need a few rows.

In fact, I told my wife earlier
today, I really need a few

more rows of electro netting.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: I didn't

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: mind.

I don't mind putting them out.

Oh yeah, they're not cheap.

I don't mind putting them out.

Put moving them around though.

Especially in the woods.

That is,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
that's a good exercise for your

marriage, know, you and your wife.

That's.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: That, that's
a good exercise for meditation.

I mean, man we got, we got
enough trees with thorns out

there and those thorns
jump out and grab it,

but yeah.

Works on patience,

on resilience.

There's, there's a whole list of things.

It improves.

Well, let's take it back.

I'm not sure it improves.

It helps you work on it.

It gives you an opportunity

to

improve.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: It

offers you an opportunity.

Yep.

Yeah.

We call 'em, wait a minute, bushes.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

There you

go.

Wait a minute.

Yeah.

Now, during this time, you
were starting to see what your

chicken's effect on your land was.

You were seeing what the pigs were
doing to the area you brought in cows

because the grass you started having more

grass.

I can only assume that just caused
you to dive deeper into this

rigidity practice rabbit hole.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

I mean, I didn't have, I didn't
have a lot of bad habits.

You know, my,

my wife had, you know, my, I shouldn't
say bad habits, I didn't have a

lot of institutional knowledge.

My wife grew up on a

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: My wife grew up
on a dairy, and when she was younger, this

is, this is just kind of what they did.

It was a very grass-based dairy.

It wasn't until much later and more
and more visits from more and more

salesmen did they go to much more of
a, of a conventional type operation.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: So for
us, I, I just, yeah, I started, you

know, I, I'd read Holistic Management.

I was listening to podcasts.

I was you know, I'd heard Dr.

Allen Williams, I heard Gabe
Brown I read Dirt to Soil.

I'd read Dirt to Soil
when I was in Afghanistan.

You know, I'm like,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
I'm reading these things.

I'm like, wow, this is some
incredible, incredible stuff.

And it just seemed to
really make sense to me.

And I, I know we're, we're, we're
gonna get into this too, but.

When I would go, you know, I worked
in Africa and it was like, this

is how they managed their land.

In some cases, you

know, they weren't out there with
polywire, they're, it was kids

with sticks, you know, moving

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
every single day.

There's no, there's no

set stock grazing, you know, it's, they're
moving, they're working, they're working

with like other landowners or community
areas where they're grazing through it.

And so this all just kind of made, to
me, it just made a whole lot of sense.

So it, it was really enjoyable too.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
that was pretty neat.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

So how long did you get to stay
in North Carolina doing that?

And then was the next
step going to California?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

We were there for six years and then we
we really thought we would stay there.

And then I

had

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I
had an opportunity to go to the

Naval Postgraduate School, which
is in Monterey, California.

And we thought, well, you know,
we, there's not too many army

bases that are on the beach.

You know, like

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: the Navy tends
to have a pretty good stronghold on those.

And so it was a unique opportunity.

I, I applied for it.

Didn't think I'd get in.

Somehow I got in and we thought,
well, let's, let's go try this.

Let's go do something a little bit
different for a year and a half,

and then we will, we'll hustle
right back to North Carolina.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
That, that's what we thought

That's, we thought we would do.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: So how long
have you been in California now?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Oh, it
has been almost three years now.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

Yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

And we, I mean it's, it is beautiful,
you know, like Yeah, it is.

It's a postcard out there.

It's,

it is really unique.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: I have not
been there, but I'm sure I've told

this story I believe on the podcast
before, but my wife's from Hawaii.

I'm from Oklahoma.

First time I went to Hawaii with
her, she went ahead of me to see

family, and she was there, I wanna
say two weeks before I went over and.

I would be like, Hey,
send me some pictures.

I wanna see what it looks

like.

And she was like, well, we
didn't really do anything.

We didn't go anywhere.

We just ran to town.

Nothing really to take a picture of.

I'm like, okay.

So next day I'd ask her again,
you, you take some pictures

for me?

She's like, no, we just, we
were just out around the house.

Didn't really do anything.

I'm like, okay, okay.

This goes on for two weeks.

And I fly

over.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Well,
her dad picks me up at the airport

and we go to their house standing
on the driveway of her parents'

driveway, standing on their driveway.

I could look to the east and see
the ocean and I don't know if

you've been to Oklahoma, but we
don't have a ocean that close.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: No.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: You could
look to the West and see a mountain.

I.

I.

don't know if you've been to Oklahoma.

We don't have a lot of mountains.

We do have some, but not in area.

I'm in

and, and then if you looked
across the road at her neighbor's

yard, there was a palm tree.

We don't have those in Oklahoma,
at least not in my area.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yep.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
Like all these opportunities.

So it was, it was pretty, pretty, it
was a very pretty or beautiful area to

go over there and visit and see that.

I'm sure the area you are in has all that

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
It, it is beautiful.

We, we always talk about, my
wife and I say if there's.

There's one spot that we wouldn't need
to, you know, prayerfully consider

moving to where we could just go.

Yeah.

That of course we would move it.

It'd be Hawaii, it'd be

Maui in particular.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

And that, that's where she grew

up, Mally.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: unbelievable.

Hana that Road to Hana.

Oh,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Yeah.

We, we went, we went to Hana when
we were, in fact, funny story is.

We had to talk our parents into letting
us use their car to go to Hana because

they were like, that's just so far to go.

And finally they're like, okay, if
y'all want to go over there for the day

or something.

And it's a little bit longer drive.

It's really not that far by miles,
but you know, it's nothing when

you think, well, we're gonna go
to Tulsa and that's an hour trip.

You know, we, we drive a lot further here.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Mm-hmm.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: So Now
when you moved to California,

what'd you do with your, your
chickens, your goats and cattle?

Did you just say that time is over, or,
that period of my life is over for now.

And you sold them, or were

you able to move out there
and do anything with that?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
well, we, we, we sold the herd.

So we had, at that point, we transitioned
to like some registered Brahmans,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
really, we just loved that breed.

Loved how smart they were
and with how smart they were.

It just made moving such a breeze.

You know, the moves

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I would walk
out there, they'd, they'd be at the

gate handle, you know, they'd identify,
okay, there's the yellow gate handle.

This is where he is gonna listen.

And they'd all be standing
right there before work.

I'd, you know, lift up the gate
handle, they'd walk, I'd close it

behind him, and I'd go off to work.

You know, I had a little bit of
like, wet shoes as I showed up to,

you know, work out with my team.

But it no big deal.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Did you, why?

Why'd you go with Braas?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: well.

It's actually kind of, we went
to the state fair and we saw

this, you know, big old hump, big
floppy ears red, super slick coat.

And my wife said, all right, I'm,
that's the kind of cow I want, you

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: different.

I want something a little bit different.

And then we got to just know a few people
in the area and just a neat community

who were raising those registered ones.

And it, again, the person, I mean, I
could sit my daughters on top of 'em.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
just stand right there.

We could put a halter on 'em.

I mean, they were just, it was a really,
the temperament was pretty unique.

I know some Brahmans, or some people call
'em brainers, get a, get a bad rap for

how spirited they are high headed, but.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: You know,
I, I mean, I think that's same thing

with dogs too, you know, like really
smart dogs that are kind of not

trained are pretty wild dogs, you know?

And

so,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: they can be.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: so I
thought it was a good breed that

when worked with frequently, they
were very fast learners and we could

bring in, so if I brought in other
cows, they would train up, you

know, they just follow those, the,
the, the herd of Brahmins around.

' cause they

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: where
to go and they, they'd follow

you, they'd follow you anywhere.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: I, I think
I've told my wife I wanna get us some of

these zebu that are, are pretty small.

Of course I probably shouldn't
be saying this on a Grazing Grass

podcast where we're talking about
production, but I, I think they're

cool looking and I think they'd be
cool just to have out in my front

yard here and I could do
a few things with them.

And my wife doesn't
like the way they look,

so she has told me no on
those or Brahmas right now.

So I'm working her that way because I
re, I remember my grandparents had a

bramer Brahma bull, I guess in the mid
eighties blue, and he was a timus thing.

You could

scratch on him and everything.

And, and it just was amazing
except, you know, as a kid and he

comes running across the pasture to

you it's a little scary because you
don't know how it's gonna react.

But, but he was dog gentle.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yep.

Yeah.

our our bull would put his head
right on my shoulder and just

let me, that big old flap down
by his, you know, by his brisket.

He'd just like, well, please scratch

me.

Like he was a big dog.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: just,

we really liked that breed read.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

Very good.

So you sold them out when you

you decided to make the
trip across the country?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
Yeah, same thing.

And, and really the chickens,
and we, we kind of planned ahead,

hadn't bought any hogs and.

Knew we weren't gonna do meat birds
again, so we just kind of closed up the

shop windows, so to speak, and yeah.

Thought we would just come right back.

And so we didn't really sell
anything other than, other

than the actual livestock.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: oh yeah.

So when you moved out there thinking
it was a short period of time,

you didn't look for a piece of
land out there, you were thinking

more short term.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

In Monterey.

Yeah, right.

We thought 18 months and then

we, we'd go right back and yeah.

I think the, the medium price price of
a home in Monterey is something like

900, 900,000 for a fixer
upper, you know, and it's,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: I,
I figured it was pretty high,

pretty expensive there.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: yeah.

We weren't gonna do that.

Yep.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

So let's, let's shift gears

just a little bit, Eric, and talk about
your project you have going on now.

And that's our overgrazing
topic for today.

A topic where we dive deeper
into I'll just let you introduce

it and tell us what it isn't.

Then we'll go from

there.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: So just as
we left off in our conversation about

Monterey, you know, I was at the Naval
Postgraduate School and they really

give us a, a wide breadth of what
we want to write our thesis about.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And
so they, they're not gonna say,

here's, here's a, you know, pick out
of a hat here, here's your topic.

They want it to be something that
we experienced operationally, you

know, whether we were deployed
or working with a partner force.

Something that will, that we
can give back to our community.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I always
felt like when I was deployed, I could

build rapport with my partner, force it.

I don't.

I don't play video games, but if
I did, I, I always felt like I had

a video game cheat code because
I could talk about agriculture.

I talk about,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: of
these places that we deploy to

are growing based economies.

You know, they're practicing

animal, that's how they get by.

That's, that's their
main source of income.

So I thought this was, there's
there's something here that we

could connect, because a lot of
the, the people I work with had zero

background, no, no training on it.

and,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: and so
I just thought, again, it was, it

was a bit of an unfair advantage
that I had with my partner force.

And so we saw whether I was, you
know, in, in Africa where we were

able to work with the local graziers.

For example, we had a, a range that we
wanted to train our partner force on

how, how to use these machine guns and,
you know, but this grass is practically.

You know, chest high or over our heads,
and they said, here, here's our range.

And we said, Hey, this is great.

But, you know, for the, we're gonna
be laying on our stomachs and we,

we talk about our, our phases of
training, go, crawl, walk, run.

And so we are on the, we're in the
crawl phase with you guys right now.

And so we need this to be, you
know, mowed down some is there,

there's no mowers clearly.

You know, there's no

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh,

right.

Yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
mowers out here.

There's no flail mowers.

So can, how is this something we could do?

And they're like, yeah, give
us, give us a couple days.

It'll be, it'll be mowed down.

And so we're driving by
that range later that day.

And there's, there's those kids
with sticks, you know, getting their

herd over there, herd of big cows.

And they're, they're mowing
down the range for us.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And
then, like later on throughout

that, that time we're, we're working
with those same graziers to, to.

Buy food for us, you
know, to sustain our team.

So we just saw like kind of a
cool like working relationship

with the local graziers.

You know, we would call 'em ranchers here.

And the, the military element
that was stationed there,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right.

Good synergy there,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

They worked together.

Like, they're like, we can't exist
without one another, or we can't do

things well without each other.

So there was a, there was an element
of reliance on one another that I

thought was actually community building.

It wasn't, it wasn't a distraction.

It wasn't something that got
in the way of operations.

It actually

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: helped it.

And then as you, as you know, the
difference between coming out with

a mower and mowing a range versus
the difference in grazing a range.

Like, you're gonna get
two different products

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, you are?

Yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And
so, you know, we're, I'm getting a

little ahead of myself, but you know,
I'm here in California and we're

obviously concerned about wildfires.

That's always, that's
always a risk, right?

We're always concerned about that.

And,

and even when I was in North Carolina,
you know, we'd sit on a range and if

we're shooting in a trace around, hits a
piece of oxidized grass, now I'm sitting

on my hands waiting 'cause there's a
fire and we have to shut down training.

And so

I just thought, I'm like, whoa, with
this polywire, with this level of

control we have over these livestock,
why aren't we grazing our installations?

Why aren't we, why aren't we taking,
you know, a more holistic approach

to how we manage our land here?

That that ultimately benefits
the war fighter, the trainer.

You know,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: create more
resilient landscapes that can withstand

everything the unit's gonna bring to bear.

But back to the thesis talk is, you know,
we, we definitely saw like a link between

these agriculture practices and stability.

So my thesis partner, Ian McAlpine, I
was super blessed to get a thesis partner

who was smarter, better writer, better
looking, all these things, you know, that

was, that was a smart move on my part.

' cause he took our thesis to,
to, to really another level.

And so we, we looked at, you know,
how do we create stability in areas

of instability through an agricultural
practice like regenerative gr grazing.

Mainly we looked at adaptive
multip paddock grazing.

That's really

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: focus.

And then how do we do it
on a DOD installation?

Like how do, like could we, could
we go do it internationally?

Sure.

And there's a lot of people
who are, but let's build it.

Let's see who we need for a team,
how we create it, and then let's

do it here on one of our bases.

And so that, that's
really what gave birth.

To the Argo, the Regenerative Grazing Open
Air Lab that we're, we, now we're here on

camp San Luis Obisbo in, in California.

This is a National Guard,
California National Guard base.

And we took an existing lease
that was those 140 cow calf

pairs that I had mentioned.

And, you know, we talked
to the environmental team,

we talked to range control.

They're the folks who run the training.

You know, they say

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, okay.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: this
unit is going to be on alpha

range shooting this weapon system.

These other units will be on these
other ranges, shooting other things.

So we brought those two in
and then got the garrison.

So the kind of the headquarters
element, the mayor, if you will, of

the base, brought all those together
along with the rancher who was

grazing it, brought 'em all in a room.

And said, this is kinda, you know,
this is regenerative grazing 1 0 1.

Here's what we'd like to do on this base.

And then I, I looked over at the rancher,
his name's Mark, and I'd never met him.

And I was like, you know,
we're, we're funded.

We, you know, we, we can do
this project, but without your

buy-in, we don't do anything.

You know, this just

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: was
kind of a cool opportunity that

we, we didn't ultimately get to do.

So he was great.

He, he agreed to it.

And then we took off
running in, in September.

Starting, Starting,

the grazing.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: so if I'm
understanding you correctly, you got

this approved and you, you've got
all the, the stakeholders together

and coming up with a plan and the cows
were already there on a lease situation

and, and you converted or the, the change
was to go from a set stocking situation

to AMP grazing.

Did I summarize that correctly?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah, I mean
he, they definitely did some rotation.

This was so there's 2,500 acres, so
there's about five, 500 acre pastures.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, okay.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And so, and,
and Mark, he, he was a good stockman.

I mean, he still is a good
stockman and did a, a good job and

didn't take it down to nothing.

You know, he definitely, we've had
two awesome years, two great years

of rain here this year, not as great,
which was not an awesome start to

the project, you know, to say, Hey,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: we're starting
this new thing and we're not getting the

rain that we've had the last two years.

'cause everyone was like, wow, you know,
last two years we had longer grass.

I said, yeah, I'm

working on that.

But Correct, it was an
existing, an existing lease.

And, and what we wanna get to is we're,
we're, we're coming into contact with

other, other bases, installations.

Who say, Hey, we don't have a grazing
lease, but we, we see what you guys

are doing and we're interested in
also implementing something like this,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: fuel
load mitigation, you know, we call

it fuel load reduction, fine fuel
load reduction, or invasive species.

They'll say they want, you know, some type
of a, an animal to remove some of those.

And so that's, that's another
model we're looking at.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Is that where you, you see this going?

If this works out good.

And we're it, it works for the DOD

and it works for your base and it works
for the rancher and it works for the land.

Is that what you envision?

We have the opportunity to set the
example so that other bases, other

leases, they can go and implement this.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Exactly

that.

That's exactly it.

I mean, we are, we're the
proof of concept, you know,

we are, we're the test dummy.

And I felt that way very much so as
I was, you know, scaling, scaling,

these cliffs with geared reels tied
to my belt and, you know, a, a rubber

mallet trying to pound some of these
fiberglass posts in the ground, you know?

'cause I was like, I, this has to work.

I know this will work.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: know,
I saw it in North Carolina.

This has to work.

I know it's a Mediterranean climate.

I know things are different,
but it's gonna work here.

I'm gonna make it work here.

And so

one thing that is, is unique
is we are, we are partnered

with understanding ag and so we

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, okay.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Part of our,
part of the contract is understanding ag

does come here and, and say, Hey, this
is kind of the road to regeneration.

This is the way we can apply it here.

Here are some things that you've been
doing that you need to do better.

Or you know, there's a saying.

I went to, I went to ranger school
when I was a young lieutenant, and

they say that there's, there's strong
rangers and they're smart rangers.

And I was, I was being a
strong ranger out there.

It's nothing bad.

It's not bad being a strong
ranger, but you know, it,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right?

Yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: it's hard.

And so, you know, I didn't have

any, I couldn't tighten my belt anymore.

You know, we were working hard out
here and it was, it was awesome.

But that having a, someone come out a
second set of eyes and say, Hey, you

know, you could stick to the road here.

Utilize the terrain over here a little
bit better, and let's tie into water

over here was, was invaluable for my.

Sanity and health.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: You know,
as we think about life throughout,

in all aspects, whether it's grazing
our, our, marriages, raising kids.

I listened to a podcast called The
Better Life Podcast with Brandon Turner,

and he's all the time about coaches in

different parts of your life.

And I think that's, and I'm gonna say
this, I'm gonna say I think it's really

important, and I don't have that in
place and I really should, I think.

But the coaches really help you
because you're in the trenches

and that's someone else to come in and
have eyes on it, and they're, they're

using their experience and they're
helping you see maybe what you're

missing because you're in that trench.

So I think working with
someone is so important.

Like I said, I don't have any
in place, but I really should.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Hmm.

You're apps, right?

And I'll put a.

A plugin, it, it, maybe not a coach, but
even just community who can, you know,

and that's why

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: community?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
you see like, the Ranching for

Profit with Executive Link.

I mean, that's a really powerful thing.

My, my wife and I, we do
this thing called Reengage.

It's like a marriage ministry.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: we're like
always, always, we've gone through

this course, 15, 15, we're, we're
actually halfway through another one

about 15 and a half times, and it's
like a, a 12, 14 week course that

we just go through re repetitively.

'cause we just wanna
continually get better at our

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: You
just don't, you don't trip and

fall and have a good marriage.

So that, so

when you talk about coaching
and just being intentional,

I think that's another thing

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
Being intentional.

I like that.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: about what,
what you want to see on your tombstone.

You know, how many, how many hours
a day do you spend working on, you

know, loving, husband, father, friend,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: how many
hours of your day are committed to

what's gonna be on your tombstone?

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: I this, this
shows a, a definite weakness of me.

I called my brother the other day and
he's like, or I text him, he says,

everything okay, what are you doing?

I said, I am really terrible.

Maintaining relationships with
friends and I need to do a better job.

And of course, it's my brother.

I'm just like, so I'm trying
to be a better friend here.

He's like, oh.

He's like, actually, I agree.

You

know, we all need that.

Eric, I wanna jump back
just a little bit to that.

When you had all those stakeholders
in the room and getting started, how

difficult was it to get their buy-in?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
You know, I really thought the

environmental side of things was
gonna to be the most challenging.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh,

yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
and that was not the case.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: it was not.

I, I mean, they, they're like, no, no, no.

We, we understand how important
livestock can be under.

Proper management.

I think that

was, that was the, the crux of it all.

And that's really what

I was driving home was that, you
know, Fred Provenza will say,

meat is not, meat is not meat.

You know, and it's like, grazing
is not, grazing is not grazing.

There is a difference.

There's a difference.

When I'm out here, I'm the belly
button range control those folks I was

telling you about who run the ranges.

If, if a cow gets out or something
like that, they're gonna call me,

you know, and they're, I'm gonna ride
out there on my four-wheeler and I'm

gonna go get that cow off the range.

You know, like, it, the management
is so different, it's personal.

They know me.

So that, that was, it was
actually a fairly easy don't

wanna call it sell, but you know,

that it's it's really

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
but But you are selling

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: yeah.

We were selling, I was
a salesman in there.

The one who I was really most
nervous about was, was the rancher,

was meeting, was meeting the

rancher, you know, because he's,
he's a third generation rancher.

He's got a thousand cows.

This, this is one of his, you
know, seven different leases.

He's.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right.

Who are you telling me what

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

Who's this guy in a, you know,
this camouflage, she's trying

to talk to me about cows.

Like, I know cows.

What are you, what are
you, what are you doing?

And really, I just can't, I, I
talk to Mark, you know, talk about

maintaining a relationship with friends.

I talk to Mark very free.

I don't think we talk every day,
but maybe every other day we're

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: and,
'cause I'm, I'm always trying to,

I always wanna try something new,
you know, something kind of crazy.

And I'm, and Mark's always
like, all right, I'll, I'll,

and I just keep kind of pushing.

Like, for example, we have we have some
areas that aren't typically grazed.

They're outside of those,
those 500 acre enclosures.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: down
here we call it containment area.

So it's like by the buildings, you
know, where maybe not training's

happening, but, but maybe more like
classroom type things are happening.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And so
there's just some big flat wide

open spaces and I'm like, Hey Mark,
can I get some of those older cows?

Let me pull some of those down
and I'll put 'em down here.

And because I, I talked to the, the
landscaping crew and they think it'd

be really cool to not have to mow that.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: and he
is like, ah, man, if those cows

get out though, you know, they're,
that's the highway's not that far.

I'm like, yeah, I know Mark.

I got, I just trust me this.

And so it's, it's been really cool.

And Mark, I'm not gonna say we haven't,
especially during that training phase,

you know, when we had, we brought all 140
pairs down in the training paddock, had

the poly wire set up, had 'em on there in
an acre and a half, and we're like, here's

how we're gonna train with this hot wire.

It's gonna be pretty
intense for a little while.

And I just remember him sitting there
kind of being like, whew, know, that's

a lot of cows all mobbed up like this.

And

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yes.

Yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: But it,
again, I, I keep telling Mark, I'm

like, he is the partner of choice.

It has been awesome.

I've learned a

ton from him.

So I'm, I'm really appreciative.

But, sorry, that's a
long answer to the, that.

What was it like being in that meeting?

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Was
there resistance from who?

Who gave the most resistance

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
I, you know, it,

it honestly was, yeah, it was
kind of the range control.

'cause they were like,

listen, we, we've had grazing out here.

It's not broke.

Why fix it?

You know, now we're gonna have
to kind of coordinate with you

about where you're gonna be.

And,

and I was like, Hey, we, we actually
will make it more predictable for you.

You know, I can tell you you're
gonna have pasture map pulled up, you

know, next to your computer on there.

That'll be on one screen.

Your other screen will have like
what units are training and where

you'll be able to overlay those.

So you'll know exactly what
Grid Square might the cows are.

You know, you'll know
exactly where they are.

'cause they'll be on this.

Eight acre paddock for today.

Then tomorrow they're gonna be
on a different one, you know?

And, and you.

So we actually can work hand in hand and
we'll work a whole lot better together.

There won't be as many surprises,
you know, we're gonna be,

we're gonna be best buds.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right.

It, it, it's kind of like when I
talk to hunters that's got land

and they're like, well, cattle out
there is gonna interrupt my honey.

You know, when we're, we're moving
these cattle, they're only on a

small percentage of their land,

of the total land.

They're not roaming over the whole
place, and I'm being very deliberate

about where I'm having them go
and what I'm doing with them.

So if there's a certain time
you're going to be hunting in a

certain area, we can make sure
the cows aren't going to be there.

Simple as that.

now now that's a little, they're
always like, are you sure?

Yeah.

I, I got this.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
just we can do this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and so when I meet with, you know,
I'll, I'll have people who are kind

of sitting in a room and I'm briefing,
you know, I've, I've done this a few

times, talked to, you know, amp Grazing
1 0 1, here's how we do it on DOD land.

And I see a few people with their arms
crossed, and, and I'll say, Hey, I

bet you've been stationed somewhere
where cows shut down your training.

You know?

'cause there are bases, there are
quite a few bases who do graze.

And they're like, yeah, yeah, I'm, I was
at one of those bases and I don't, I don't

think this is a good fit for, you know,

X space that you wanna do this at.

Because, you know, I say, you know,
we're not turning this into a dude ranch.

You know exactly what

you said, Kyle.

It's like, I, I, I know
where they're gonna be.

It's in our grazing plan.

You know, like,

here's where they're gonna be.

And guess what, if a unit needs to
train in that spot and you don't want

livestock there, we'll move them.

We had a cool, we had,
they have four legs.

We'll, we'll, we'll move them out.

We can do that.

It's pretty simple.

We had a really cool story.

The California National Guard was
doing a best warrior competition at

multiple bases, and one
of their stops was here.

And so they kind, you know, they're
running all throughout the night.

They're not really sleeping much.

They're, they're shooting at ranges.

And so then we, there, there's
a land navigation portion.

So they have a map and a compass
and they gotta find their way.

And a friend of mine is, is kind
of in charge of that portion.

And I was like, Hey, I'm, I just
wanna make sure we have the cows

moved out before you guys move, you
know, before you guys go over there.

What day do you wanna have 'em out?

You know, I'll, I'll,
I'll move them over here.

And he's like, no, I think this
would be a really cool proof of

concept to see if we can do land nav
and graze, like in the same area.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
And so I'm like, okay.

I, I think it's a really good idea
too, because the, the Army's tool

traditionally is, is control burn.

That's how you knock down vegetation

in these areas where that, where,
where you can't put mowers in.

And so we thought, well, let's
do this at the same time.

So during the safety brief, you
know, they, they're learning,

here's how we polywire.

I showed 'em, here's the polywire,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Don't
touch it or you will regret

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: That's right.

Yeah.

It's self-correcting.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: It is.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And
I showed 'em, you just step

on it, you know, you put your

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: you step on
it, you walk in, you go find your point.

There'll be some cows who probably look
at you for a second, then they're gonna

put their head down and go back to eating.

Don't worry about them.

And then you'll walk out
and it's no big deal.

And so we did that.

So they, they went
through the whole night.

No one got, no one got
shocked to my knowledge.

Or

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: well good.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
maybe they didn't tell me.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

They may have been a little embarrassed

to tell you, Hey, my funny bone hurt.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: But no, no, no.

Cows got out.

No cows got out.

We

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: well,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: So it
was just a cool story of like,

we're not only training, but we are
like creating resilient training

areas at the exact same time.

Like we didn't need to do this
huge, you know, big shift.

And a lot of, a lot of folks will
tell us like, okay, I think this

could work in, in this area because
there's no training over there.

And I said, no,

no, no.

no.

can create the best training environments.

We can mission scape, we can, we
can create areas that withstand

or, or are better remediated.

You know, after a tank rolls through
with with a, with a, with a hooed animal,

then with whatever it is you're gonna,
the money and mechanical intervention

you're gonna try and spend out

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

With going through this and getting
it started that warrior deal was

something you didn't anticipate,
but you all were able to, to work

with that and get it working.

Was there any, has there been anything
going through that you're like, oh,

I should have done different here?

Or have has anyone that had buy-in at the
first, I know we're still fairly early,

are looking at it saying, Hey, that's
not working as I thought it would.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Hmm.

Yeah, that's a good question.

You know, I, what is kind
of, right now, as I told you,

we're grazing the impact area.

So this is like

where where they're actually shooting.

So instead of, and it's not typically
grazed, this is normally it's just

controlled, burned, but we said,

Hey, can we, can we graze that?

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: because
it is, it is continually burned.

It, there's not a ton of forage out
there, but what is out there is a

bunch of like fillery and chicory.

And so it's, I mean, it's the,
the cows, the cows are actually

doing pretty well on it.

And so we said instead of fencing
them and moving them every single day,

right now we're just gonna exclude
areas where we don't want them to walk.

So we have these target,

we have target lifters that are
solar powered, so they, like a

target will spring up for three
seconds and then it'll go back down.

And so that's the opportunity for
the soldier to engage that target.

And so those are all,
again, solar powered.

They don't want cows
stepping on the solar panels.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: some
of that and that we came out the

next day and cows are all over it.

And I'm like, what in the world?

How are these cows all
over these, this area?

We exclude 'em and I, as I
drive up there and get closer.

Those ring tails.

It's like the, it is like they saw
those ring tail, those we have those

Orange Gallagher step-in posts from

fl, we bought 'em from Gallagher
step and, and they shot 'em all up.

I mean, it was like, it was pretty

impressive.

So the wire was all shot all over
the ground and we're like, okay.

So the lesson here being we need
to do a little bit more standoff.

These need to be a little bit
further away from the targets.

I don't think they

intentionally, they didn't intentionally
shoot 'em, but they were so close.

'cause I wanted every blade
of grass that could be eaten,

eaten,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: right.

Naturally as a grazier, we want to include

every inch we can.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
every piece I could.

And so I'm like, well, next time I
think I'm gonna have 'em, I'm gonna

sacrifice a little bit of grass

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: and, and
pull 'em back a little bit further.

Because we, I was really priding myself in
how we hadn't had cows walk onto ranges.

We hadn't had

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
who had disrupted training.

And so when I, I mean my stomach
was just like in my throat as

I drove out there and I saw,

I'm like, oh no.

Well, I mean, there's not much
you can do for shot up Polywire,

but it was a lesson learned.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: It.

Yeah.

You learn from it and you move on.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

Yes.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: I believe you're
less than a year into the project now.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
yeah, we're seven months, we're

Seven months.

in.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: How?

How long does the project run?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Well,
we want it to go for five years.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, okay.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: but funding
is always an issue and so we're, we're

continue to looking for partners and
way to continue to keep doing this.

We know, I mean, we talked to like Dr.

Allen Williams and you know, we,
soil does need, we'll see changes.

Right?

We'll

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, you will?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And
we're seeing some really cool stuff.

I mean, we're seeing.

Like this Turkey flock that
is just following these cows.

And, and folks who have been here for,
you know, 6, 8, 10 years, they're like,

this is the biggest flock ever, we've

ever seen.

It's like four times the size and then the
ranchers like, you know, I, I, I used to

see deer like, kind of out in the bushes,
but I've never seen them out in the open.

Like, they're like, they're moving.

You know,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: they're,
following this herd as these cows go

through and have some positive, you
know, disruption and they're, they're

removing all that thatch, you know,
it's, so that's been really cool to see.

But, you know,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, very good.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: he'll say,
you know, Alan will say, you know, two

to three years before soil, soil really
knows it's under new, new ownership,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes, yes,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
We're having Actis.

So Dr.

Jonathan Lundgren and his team
is gonna be out here to do a

bunch of baseline measurements
between I think in a couple days.

Yeah.

Sunday.

Sunday they'll get here.

We'll, we'll do Camp Roberts and
we're gonna do Camp San Luis Obisbo.

Pretty excited to have some baseline
and then we will revisit those annually.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

Yeah.

What's the the future hold for you there?

Are you gonna be able to be out
there through the whole project?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I hope so.

As long as I can be,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
letting me do this and lead this

innovative innovative range.

Boy.

Yeah.

We'll have to edit, edit that part out.

As long as the army lets me
lead this innovative range

and land management program.

I'll stay here and do it

because I, I, I really see this
as it could revolutionize how we

maintain our, our training areas.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: really,

we don't, we don't fight on
concrete pads all the time.

You know, we, we don't, we do train and
shoot houses and we do that, but we do

also need to train on a big open areas.

And to me, this is the

best way we can manage, we can
manage these big open areas.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Yes.

I, I totally agree.

. You mentioned earlier you,
you're using Pasure Map.

How has that worked for you?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: We like it.

I was, before, you know,
you, you have to pay for it.

Right.

But, so

before that I was using Cal Topo, which

is not great.

I mean, it was a good, it was
a good like, initial mapping,

but you can't, it just
doesn't track the historics.

I mean, I don't even understand
all of the, all of the good

things past your map can show you.

But what was cool is they'll sit
on the phone with you, they'll get

on a zoom with you and explain.

They were like, I, my wife and I, we
were trying to like move these pastures

these and sent them in a email at like 10
30, you know, 'cause we're, we get work

done when the girls, you know, when the,
when our daughters are asleep, right?

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right, right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And like 10
35, someone's replying with like, how

to troubleshoot adding in this line.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I've been
really impressed with that, that their

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, very

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

So that, that was pretty neat.

And, and we do like it.

I mean, that allows me, you know,
we have a, we have an intern

from Cal Poly, his name's Miles.

He's awesome.

And that's like a super help.

'cause I can just pull out my phone
and be like, all right, here's,

here's where we're gonna go today.

Here's what the map looks like.

And then we're gonna go out there and
figure out if that's even possible.

You know, we, we have some
challenging terrain out here, so

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: great,
but you gotta, you gotta walk it too.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Before we move to our famous
four, is there anything we didn't

talk about that you thought,
Hey, we should get that covered?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

You know, I just, I really wanna
stress that like what we're doing

here, you know, is, is benefiting
the military, you know, and, and,

but it's a, it's a systems, right?

We look at, we're, we're not, we
don't look at linear reduction

of science anymore, right?

We wanna take a systems approach.

And so, yes, it's, it's
benefiting the military.

Undoubtedly, you know, the war fighter
is gonna have the most pristine,

well-maintained, well-managed
training areas and ranges.

When we offer land access to
folks who know what we're doing.

You know, your listeners, you know, we're,
we're preaching to the converted here.

I don't think that's

like a real, they're
like, yeah, we get it.

I've seen this on my landscape.

I've seen how, I've seen how this reacts.

Like I can look at my neighbor's
place and look at my place and go,

what would be a better training area?

Where could you actually
drive a tractor vehicle?

Where could, where could.

People practice bounding and
maneuver in a base of fire.

How, how would we do that?

Well, you'd wanna do it, you
know, I, I'd wanna do it at, at

one of these ranches that are

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: you know?

And so that, that makes sense.

But then we also see the
wind for the rancher.

You know, the, the, we're seeing
the animal performance out here.

We're seeing just the, the
temperament that's changing, which

is really, really cool to see.

And the rancher loves coming out
here and seeing all his cows.

They're right there.

You know, they're,

they're,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
they're not all over.

They're right there.

And so that's been neat.

And the environmental team is a big fan
of this, you know, 'cause they're like,

well we have some cultural sensitive sites
on our base that I can put a poly wire

around so the cows aren't going on there.

You know,

there's some, yeah, there's
a Churro Creek Bog Thistle.

Well, we'll exclude that.

We won't, that's a threaten
and endangered species.

You don't want us in there.

I can this.

This magic white wire will
keep them out of there.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And so it's,
it's been as you were just seeing a

lot of, and, and as I mentioned like
the, the landscaping crew who the other

day said, Hey, we just really wanna
thank you for grazing around that area,

that, that's really challenging for us.

We have to be up there with weed
whackers, you know, we can't,

we can't be up there on a mower.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
thanks for grazing that area.

That's, that's historically not grazed.

So we're seeing all sorts of these,
like, these winds and, you know,

we're saving, we're saving money.

We're hopefully making the,
the rancher more money.

We wanna see increased weaning weights.

We really think this next year
is gonna be interesting when

we see the conception the breed

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: typically
those bulls, you know, he is got

eight bulls out there that are working
2,500 acres collectively, you know,

whereas now we had, we had eight
bulls on eight acres with 140 cows.

You know, it's like they're gonna
make their way around to everybody.

You know, so so we're

just seeing, it's

just been really neat.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: and one thing
I didn't hear mentioned there, which.

I, I know you're aware of, but whenever
we're out there with animals that

much, it just makes subsequent times
that we're out there so much better

because those cows are so calm and
tame versus cows that you go out and

you check once a week from a pickup.

It, it's just totally different

in their attitude towards you.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They see us and instead of turning
and running, which induces stress,

weight, you know, they're not gaining

weight while they're
running away from you.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: They just
look at you and then they put their

head back down and start eating again,
and I'm like, well, that's good.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I love taking people out to see my,
my cows because they're just so calm and

it's just a, a good relationship there.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: And then, and
then one thing we talk about is like, how

do we, you know, how, where do we go from

here?

You know?

And it's like, well, we see, you
know, I talked to, you know, those

folks like Alan Williams or Alejandro
Carillo or Roger Savory, who's like,

you know, I go out to these ranches
and I'm noble, we talked to Noble.

I went to their Land Essentials class, and
they're like, we go out to these ranches.

And they're like, well, I, I
get what you're saying, but I

could use some help doing this.

And so a lot of like, what have I,
I've experienced out here, and I've

benefited from, I would almost feel
selfish if I didn't say, Hey, this is

a great vocational rehab program for

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: You know,
like this, I can come out here.

You, you know, you, unless you've
gone and moved cows to a new piece

of grass and felt that, you know,
when everyone moves in there and

they all just, there's a little bit
of balling as they're going through

the gate or, and then all of a sudden
everyone's head's down and it's quiet.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
And you're, you're looking

around and you're observing.

You're like, okay, did I
overgraze that last one?

You know, it's only a 24 hour mistake.

I, I I'm giving them, you know,
I gave 'em eight yesterday.

Maybe I should have, I'll
give 'em 10 tomorrow.

You know?

And it's just kind of a really cool,
your mind's always working out there.

You're paying attention, you, your
head's on a swivel, especially if

there's bulls out there, you know?

But I mean, there's just a lot
of, a lot of like healing that

happening happens out there.

And you're

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I where I
wanna get to is that we take this and

we can train, we can bring in veterans
leveraging the naval postgraduate

schools, you know, the, the, our goal.

And we're bringing them in and
training the next generation of not

only just land managers, but I, I
kinda look at the next generation of

DOD land managers so we can continue,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
continue what I'm doing, you know?

'cause just like you said, well,
where, where are you going next?

And I, I don't know, but this
can, this should outlive me,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: This is

how we could manage, and the, the first
principle of soil health is context.

And who understands the context
of these bases better than, than

my fellow veterans, you know,
who are like, yeah, I get it.

These training, these bases exist
first and foremost for the war fighter.

And I, I'm, I'm not the main
effort anymore, but I'm a shaping

operation and I can help create

the best training scenarios
for, you know, those, those

people who are serving after me,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

And that, that's an excellent
point that we know, but

sometimes we don't point it out.

But in your context there,
the most important aspect of

that land is for training.

The,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: right?

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: the livestock
are there just to help manage that

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: They're a tool.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: and.

Like when we talk about
technology, technology is one

of those things we love or hate.

It depends on the day,

but the goal of technology is to help you.

And if you have to think about
technology, I used to tell

people this this whole time.

If you had to think about your
technology, our technology's

not doing good enough for you.

It should just work.

So, so in that context there, those live
suckers just gotta work for the soldiers.

And they should be behind the
scenes doing all the heavy work.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I know.

Yeah.

And I, I mean, I can, I can keep pulling
threads here, but I think about if

you've seen those ula, those shipping
containers that are USD inspected,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
shipping containers, Reese la

I've, I've got to know him and
hi, him and his father run that.

And I was like, this, this is
what should be at every base.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: are they
working to create training areas,

but we're also closing the loop here.

And we're, and we're making
these bases a bit, they, they

could island, you know, and these

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
have now have direct market.

Two, these

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
you know, and it's, we're

feeding nutrient dense food
to our soldiers, sailors,

marines, airmen, guardians

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: right here,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yeah,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: but yeah.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: yeah.

I, I, I, I think that's a great way
to look at it and think about the

future and, and think how we can do

that.

cause that's what we all
should be doing anyway, is, is

bringing that food cycle loop.

I'm sure there's a technical name that
escapes me right now, but closer to

home.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Is it is it Fred in his book?

Fred.

Fred Pro.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Provina

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Pro Provenza.

Thank you.

That, yeah.

In nourishment, talk about that.

The nutrients, the cattle eat, go.

They're needed by the
people who live in that

area because it's, it's very local
base, and I think maybe Daniel

Griffith talks a little bit about
that in one of his books as well.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

I mean, n Nourishment is a great
read for any, I mean, I'm sure most

of your listeners know about it,
but I really enjoyed that book.

And, and Dr.

Fred Provenza is also, he, we had
like a speaking engagement and I

was like, oh, can, can any of the
greats come to a speaking engagement

in no time at all, like tomorrow?

And Dr.

Fred Provina, I'd never met him, he
just emailed me back the next day.

He is like, yeah, oh, what, what

time do you need me to show up today?

And he did, he did an awesome job.

Just, we had a DOD, like a working group.

And he came in there

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: oh,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: was, awesome.

So

awesome book.

Even more awesome person.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: That, that's
always good to know when you, when you

know someone, but then you get to know
'em behind whatever screen, whatever page.

You know 'em and you're like,
oh, they're even better in

person.

Now, sadly, we're not gonna survey my
guest on that because we don't want them

saying anything bad, but we'll go ahead.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: that's

right.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Our
famous four questions, Eric,

let's get started with them.

They're same four questions
we ask of all of our guests.

And our first question, what
is your favorite grazing grass

related book or resource?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: I know
we just talked about nourishment,

so I won't say that one again.

And I'm not gonna blow your mind, but Dirt
to Soil was pretty transformative for me.

Not only, I mean, I was
also in a unique place.

I told you I was in, I was
in Afghanistan reading it.

So

there's a lot of things going
on in my head and I'm like,

the parallels are crazy here.

But I really, really enjoyed that
one, and that made a big difference.

And I, I actually just read the
Turnaround, A Ranching Story

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Brett, that
that was also a really good book too.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah,
both the excellent books.

For Gabe Brown, he's, he's
close to where you grew

up, up, north, so that helps out.

Dave Pratt's book.

I really like it.

I'm not much on the fictional story
to go with it, but there is, it's so

informational or yeah, information dense.

It's

really nice.

Yeah, I mean, it's not a bad read at all,

but there's some things in there you gotta
read over on just about those numbers

and stuff as a primer
for Ranching for Profit.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yep.

Yeah.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: So excellent
resources there, coupled with nourishment.

Our second question, what is
your favorite tool for the ranch?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: You know,
I, so I've listened to this, so

I was prepared for this question.

You know,

I would love to say, you
know, four wheeler Polywire.

But I, I remember my very first day, I, I
just got selected to go to special forces.

Captain's career course.

So we

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Okay.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: they
had a, a small group of us.

There's about 12 of us in this room,
and our small group instructor walks

in for the very first day and he walks
in and he is like, all right, lesson

one, always question the mission.

And I was like, you know,
I, I was an infantry man.

And you don't, you don't
question it, you know, it's

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: you say,
yes, sir, you move out, draw fire.

You know, it's like there's
not a whole lot of leeway.

And so I just remember thinking,
always question the mission, right?

So, So, out here I've just
always been like, well, is this

the best way to be doing it?

I think I'm like always questioning, I

just always have this mindset of
like, well, I could probably be doing

this better, you know, or like, just
because we've been doing it this way

for a really long time, does that
mean it's the best way to do it?

And I, and that's how I kind of look
at this land management, like how

we've been managing this land for a
really long, just because we've been

doing it a really long time this way.

Is that really the best way we can do it?

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: my mindset,
I think that like really, that really

was transformative and like how I
look at a lot of things now is what,

that was a paradigm shifting that day.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

That would be, yeah.

I, I like that because so many
things we do for sake of tradition

and really let's stop and make sure
we're doing this for the right reasons.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
Whenever someone

says, why are we doing it?

And they say, well that's just the

way

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: been done.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: done it.

It should be like a huge, like, whoa,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right.

Right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yep.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Our
third question, what would you

tell someone just getting started

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
It's, I have had a blast.

I think it is.

I think it is extremely fun.

And I would say start, I, I, you know,
a lot of people say like, start small,

you know, and I'm like, go for it.

I mean, I get, if, if it we're
talking finances and you know,

if you're like, Hey, I wanna just
try this on 10% of my ranch to

get started, I, I understand that.

But if you have the means, if you
have the desire, if you have the

want, I, I think we should have big,
hairy, nasty goals and go after 'em.

You know, I

want, I wanna do this on 26
million acres of DOD land.

That's my goal.

You know, like that's what I wanna do.

And.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: right.

Well, one book I've heard
mentioned a lot in business

circles 10 x is easier than two x.

And I have, I, I've downloaded the audio
book, but I haven't listened to it yet.

But yeah, those, that grand thinking,
and he says in the book, based upon the

summaries I've heard from other people,
I haven't read it yet, that, that, it

two x just doesn't cause your mind.

Two x is just doubling and you're
just gonna continue what you were

doing.

But when you 10 x it,

you can't do what you're doing
right now and get to 10 x.

You've got to change up some stuff

and it causes you to
really think and reach.

So, so that's, that may be a very
valid advice that, hey, get started.

Jump in with both feet.

And

my wife will say, wait a second,
you've done that too many times,

but maybe you should.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah, Yeah,
yeah, Maybe it's do the homework,

but then like, when you're ready to

go, you do it.

You know, you go for it.

Like,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right.

Right.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: don't

self-select.

We always say, don't self-select.

Like, don't let, let someone else
tell you it's not gonna work out,

but you, you can do it if you

wanna do it.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: And lastly, Eric,
where can others find out more about you?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: So
we're fairly active on LinkedIn.

That's really the one, the one medium
that I can kind of, get around because.

It's me kinda out there.

I'll quick stop the four-wheeler
and take a picture of a, you

know, the polywire as the drastic
difference between grazed and razed.

And that always gets me excited.

And I think other people
wanna see that too.

So if they go on LinkedIn and if you
just type in regenerative grazing open

air lab, you'll, you'll find us think
we're the only, we're the only one.

Or you can look me up.

I'm also on LinkedIn as well.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Well, Eric
actually I have wrote down in my notes

to ask you about LinkedIn because I don't
use LinkedIn, but you'd mentioned your

information's there and
you're talking about it now.

It makes me think maybe I should use it.

So tell me a little bit about LinkedIn.

LinkedIn and why that's your media

of choice.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: So I have found
that a lot of, a lot of the folks who I.

I, you know, I, I kind of keep talking
about like Alan Williams Gabe Brown,

the Noble, I mean, they're, they're
on there, they're on LinkedIn.

So you, you post something like, I, I'll
post a picture of something we did or

a video of one of the moves I'm doing,
and I will get real time feedback.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
Alan will send me a message.

You know, it's like, it's
kind of open kimono, right?

You're kind of saying like,
Hey, this is, this is what

I'm doing.

What's it, how's it looking?

Here's, here's my thoughts on it.

And it, it's a professional forum with
the industry professionals, you know,

who can, who you, 'cause they, they
can't come out here all the time, you

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: right,

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: But this
is a great way to get, and other

folks involved, and people are,
you know, people are like, I had no

idea the DOD was implementing this.

Like, how cool, what an awesome

way to restore ranges.

What an awesome way to, and they're.

They're professional.

I mean, we, we connected with
the USDA because of LinkedIn,

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: of our posts.

So, I would, I would highly recommend it
just because it's, it's not just like,

I don't know, we're not trying to like
influence people or like sell anything.

I just wanna get like these professional
perspectives on what we're doing

and what I'm seeing, and they give
me real time feedback, which has

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh, yes.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502:
has been a gift.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

Well, I, I'll be honest,
earlier today I would've said,

I'm not getting on LinkedIn.

There's no reason, but just your, your
little 32nd speech on there, and I

think I may have to try LinkedIn and

get set up on there.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

And you'll, you'll, you'll see
people with zero ranching or grazing

background who then will like say,
Hey, have you thought about this?

And I'm like, no, I

hadn't thought about that.

You know, like that totally could tie into
storytelling or so, you know, something

that you just didn't even think about that

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Oh yeah.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: to
your operation is pretty cool.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Yeah.

I will have to, to look into that and
get set up on that and try that out.

I appreciate the, the resource
and your knowledge about it.

Now, I'd mentioned to you at the
beginning, before we got started

famous for, and then there's a question

afterwards.

We're just started doing this.

Just a few episodes in.

It's your time to ask me something.

So is there anything you
would like to ask me?

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: You know,
what has been a initial struggle

maybe that you found as I, something
that paid off, doesn't have to be an

exponential payoff or anything like
that, but something when you started

was very challenging and you're seeing
positive returns these days that

would maybe be encouraging for others.

Potentially.

We'll see.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: I, I
don't know if this is my initial

reaction to that question.

My initial knee jerk thoughts on
it at first, and, and I think a

lot of beginners struggle with
this, is how much area to give

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Mm.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: my animals today,

because we all wanna go out
there and say, oh, we're giving.

So I'm gonna give four foot by two foot
to this cow, and I have a hundred of them.

So I need 400 by 200 area.

And there's, there's
some formulas to that to

figure out how much grass you have
out there, the density of it, how

tall it is, how many pounds you have
per acre, and then your cows, they're

gonna consume two and a half percent
of their body weight depending upon

what stage of production they're in.

There's, there's formless
to figure it out.

But I think in the beginning, for me, that
was one of those analysis paralysis points

in that I, I just didn't
know, do I give them more?

Do I give them less?

Do I, I know I can calculate this, so, so
here I need to go out and calculate it.

And there's lots of benefits
to calculating it and

learning how to calculate it.

But for someone just getting started.

I think that was a big holdup for me.

And once I was able to let go of that,
and you mentioned this earlier in here,

you make a mistake and you don't give
those cows enough grass for 24 hours.

You go out there, you see
your patty graze too short.

Or maybe you wanted to do
non-selective grazing, but even

at that point, you've gotta know
how long you've had 'em in there.

Those cows house, the fill on them.

Are they hungry?

You have the opportunity to change
that the very next day, or I say the

next day right there, when you're out
there for that next paddock they're

going into that, that error you
make is just one time and you have

time to reflect on it and move on.

So.

I think we get wrapped up in the beginning
on analysis paralysis, making sure we

have it exactly right in your context.

My context, even if I do all the math,
my pasture is not going to read those

charts and say That's how much grass
is out there, and my cows are not gonna

read that chart and say, I'm eating two
and a half percent of my body weight

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: That's right.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: So,
so you gotta modify that.

And I think for me, getting over
that hump of, oh, it needs to be

this and being a little bit freer
and letting my eye figure it out,

and I don't have it figured out, but
I can put cows there and I'm not,

it's no longer a big worry for me.

And I think that has paid off just
in the amount of time it takes me.

It's paid off in my
initiative to do it because.

You get in that analysis paralysis
rather than doing the step, whatever

you need to do, you're thinking,
oh, I gotta figure that out.

Well, I need to look up the formula.

Where do I find the formula?

And then you, was it a couple hours
because you're like, I gotta get this.

All right.

It doesn't have to be right.

It doesn't have to be correct.

That's why I like to
say, just get started.

Do go out there and do it.

But I think letting go of that and
then being able to, to use your

eye, you're training yourself,
you're training your cows.

I think that's been the biggest payoff.

And I don't know if that's a
good answer to your question, but

that's my, my initial reaction to

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Well,
it's your show, so I guess you

get to say It's a good question.

Good answer.

I think it is.

I mean, developing the
grazer's eye, right?

Isn't that what they

call it?

You know, you could be out there all
day with your grazing stick and you're

like, well, it's gotta be representative,
but this spot's a little bit shorter

and this spot over here is longer.

And whoa, this spot over here I
got, I have way more bare ground

over here than over there, and

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502: Right.

And, and I think different personalities
handle that different ways.

You know, s some people are
very, and, and, I don't even know

what characteristic it would be.

Probably my wife being a little OCD
would probably not be good at doing that.

So she needs a little bit of help.

I struggle from trying to be perfect
when I'm not going to be there.

So that takes, that's where I'm struggling
from, where some people don't have that.

They, they have other things that's
dictating what they're worried about.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah, that's

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
We, we all have our issues,

just, we gotta identify
and work with them.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: that's right.

Yep.

That's good.

cal_1_03-20-2025_175502:
Eric, I really appreciate you

coming on and sharing today.

eric-_1_03-20-2025_155502: Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

Cal: Thank you for listening to this
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