Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

Speaker: We have a great episode
today with Steve Campbell on selecting

cattle for grass efficiency, but
I have to apologize the audio

is not up to par this week.

I've done all I could to improve it.

The episode's really good, so I didn't
want to lose this information, so

we're releasing it, but just know going
in audio is not as good as it should

be, but it is a really good episode.

. cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: LEt's get
started with the fast five just so

our listeners can get to know you.

What's your name?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Steve Campbell.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951:
What's your farm's name?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Sold grass
finished beef for about 20 years.

I quit four or five years ago now
and it was Taylor made beef, and then

my consulting is Taylor made cattle.

And so.

I guess you would call it one of those,
the tailor made ranch or something.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: There you go.

And where are you located?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
Southwest Idaho.

I've lived in Idaho my whole life.

I was born about 110 miles north of where
I currently live, and up in New Meadows,

a mountain valley, and then we lived
over and kind of grew up in Caldwell,

about 30 miles from where I live now.

Then I moved back up to New Meadows
after my dad died, and I'm leaving

parts out here, but and lived up there
for about another 25 years, and then I

moved down to where I currently live.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: When
did you start grazing animals?

Oh, yeah.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: I didn't
start grazing animals until 88.

I grew up Dad had cattle trucks.

I grew up hauling cattle around
and greasing trucks and scooping

out manure and whatever else
you could possibly need to do.

Having cattle trucks, but

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: boy,
when I did get to the ranch it

was a totally different smell than
being inside of a cattle truck.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It would be.

Yeah.

And did you always just graze cattle
or did you graze any other species?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Mainly cattle.

When I moved back up to New Meadows
the stalker cattle running, 1100

head that someone else owned.

I was just getting paid to put pounds on.

But then we kind of got into more
of this regenerative thing and

we had some pigs one time, we had
some sheep one time we had chickens

and turkeys but mainly cattle.

And it was, it was stockers until I got
into the grass finishing and then we

We built our own cow herd, so we were
kind of doing a combination of stockers

and our own cow herd and finishers.

Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.

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cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: So that, why did
you decide to go towards grass finish?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
Oh, that's a great question.

I broke my leg really bad
in the end of January 1999.

Up until then, I was just a busy
individual getting things done.

Well, six and a half months
in an external fixator.

Those, that thing with the rings
around your leg and the wires going

through from different angles.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: yes.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: you're
going to have to get a desk job.

You won't be able to walk around.

And I'm, you know, what am I going to do?

What am I going to do?

Well, I've been getting the
Stockman Grass Farmer since 1989.

And I was reading these articles
of, yeah, I was reading these

articles about grass finishing.

It was in the mid nineties.

It was starting to kind of be a thing.

And like, well, I have grass and I've
kind of gotten good at growing grass and

putting pounds on somebody else's cattle.

Maybe this would be an opening.

And so once I got that external
fixator off that next winter we kind of

decided, Hey, we're going to do this.

And we, we got into buying our own larger
stockers and finishing them on a summer's.

Grass there in New Meadows and that
evolved into something else over time,

but this, I thought, well, if I'm going to
not be able to walk around much, I don't

want to be doing it for somebody else.

I want to be doing it for

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh, yeah.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Moved
up to New Meadows and Uncle Daryl

dad's brother, Dad was dead by then.

It's like control your water, you
know, better grass if you don't

over or under irrigate things.

And, you know, I worked
really hard at that.

Well, then I'd run into these diseases.

Uncle Daryl, how do I fix this?

And then over the winter it's like,
how do I not have pink eye next summer?

How do I not have foot rot next summer?

What's missing in the
grass, in the mineral?

So, I've always been this
person Preventive maintenance

fellow with the trucks.

Well, preventive disease,
prevent disease in the cattle.

So I was learning how to do that.

on somebody else's dime so that when
I got my own, I had very little of

that problem, didn't need to use
antibiotics which was a big deal.

And the more you get into that, you
know, your circle expands and then

you realize, Well, now there's a
whole lot more that I don't know.

And the circle is, oh, now there's
even more that I don't know.

But, you know, you're touching other
people and other ideas the more you know.

And, and boy, I was a
vacuum for information.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: You mentioned
there when you started started grass

Finishing you were doing custom
grazing and you had gotten to where

you could grow grass really good
What got you to that point that

you could grow grass really good?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Well, this
is going to sound a little crazy,

but if you'd been at the conference
I was at yesterday in Ontario,

Oregon, it would have fit right in.

I read a book in 1980 called The
Goal excellence in manufacturing.

1980?

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: and
I was, I was hauling cattle.

I wasn't manufacturing, but in
everything you do, there is a bottleneck.

There's something that,
it, it slows the process.

And long story short, to graze good
grass well, was it warm enough?

Was the ground wet enough?

Was the ground too wet?

Was it too hot?

Did you have enough biology?

Did you have enough minerals?

Well, we had a very short, sweet
growing season there in New Meadows.

And I just spent hours and days
trying to get the irrigation right.

A friend of mine said he said your
method of irrigation is every blade

gets a drink of grass, but it doesn't
get a gallon of, of, of yeah, a drink

of water doesn't get a gallon of water.

And my uncle, after about five years,
he's like, I can't believe you got

rid of that slough grass that fast,
but it was controlling the water.

Well, When that ground becomes aerobic
instead of anaerobic, because it's

over irrigated all the time, then that
nutrition that was in the soil was

able to come up in the plants and so
that the average daily gain was going

up, the total pounds for the year was
going up, learned how to rotational

graze, there's some stories around that
but Yeah, I would just, and I was a

student of everything that there was
to try to learn how to do there on, I

don't know, about 1, 200 mostly owned,
a little bit of leased ground acres.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh, yes.

And with, with that, you
mentioned rotational grazing.

When'd you introduce
rotational grazing into the

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
Well, Dad had bought some old,

Electric fencing, the string,
you know, from New Zealand,

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh, yes.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
back before I ever showed up.

In the spring of 1989, I'd moved
back up in the spring of 88.

In the spring of 89, a fellow came, oh,
about 30, 40 miles away and gave a talk.

And he recommended getting a subscription
to the Stockman Grass Farmer.

So, 98, 108.

18.

I have, I've been a subscriber
now for what, 36 years?

Anyway, read more and more in there, Jim
Garish and some other different ideas.

I've got a slide about the different,
the different kinds of rotational

grazing, if you will, out there.

But what I learned the very most, I mean
it's trying different things, but one time

I had, I'm getting kind of deep here into
the story, but I had 400 and some odd.

Steers together, and I was trying to
use them to control a particular weed.

I was like, I am not
using any more chemical.

So when I, when I go into a 40 acre
pasture, I would make paddocks that

were 1,320 feet long and 132 feet wide.

So, so if you were to set both
of your elbows on the table in

front of you, your, your fingers
are the height of all the plants.

If you move your right.

And now just the fingers of your right
hand are sticking up above the table.

That represents the grass that got eaten.

And your left hand, forearm and
fingers, there's what did not get eaten.

The important fact of those two different
elevations is the short one is now going,

wait a minute, wait a minute, we need
They're telling the biology, we need that

stuff we were getting 40, 60, 80 days ago.

We got to start over.

And the tall ones going, I'm just gonna
need a little manganese here pretty quick.

So you've got this war
going on underground.

The biology pulling in
different directions.

Well, it was 25 years later, Edwin
Blosser, Midwest Biosystems, I, he

was telling me about the, the, how
the plants told the biology what to do

and he wanted you to graze and clip.

And so then I told him this.

I told him about what I was doing.

They either grazed or they trampled it.

So all the plants got the same thing.

Insult.

So all the plants are telling
the biology, wait a minute, we

need that stuff from before.

Well, I told him a story, I'm sure
they do this every year, but one

year in Canada, oxen sled pulling
contest, the winning oxen drug, not

quite 8, 000 pounds on a, on a slip.

On a sled.

Number two was just a little over
seven and then on down from there.

Well, after the ribbon ceremony,
they said, I wonder what they could

pull if we hitched them together.

You add up what they did individually,
it was right at 15, 000 pounds.

But when you hitched them
together, pulling in unison,

they pulled 26, 000 pounds.

Well, it was, it was crazy.

The amount of quality.

came back in the regrowth that year,
you know, when I came back to it.

well, I'll just leave that there.

It's, there's more to the story, but

that every plant getting
an insult is a big deal.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: oh, yeah.

Makes a

big difference.

We, we had started a little bit
earlier with your grass finish.

We've kind of jumped backwards again.

Let's jump back to that grass
finishing and you had kept some

stockers or got some own stockers.

When did you get in the cattle
on calf rearing business?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
Well, we started in the spring

of 2001 with grass finishing.

So, not this, I got injured in 99
and so be out the spring of 99.

Two years later, we're going to,
we're going to finish some animals.

Well, at the end of March 2004,
I went down to Sacramento to

a SGF, Stockton Grass Farmer.

Conference where Gerald Fry was
going to talk for an hour and a

half about how to visually identify
tender, flavorful beef on the hoof.

Subsequently, after Gerald died,
I actually went to Australia and

took the five day school Classic
Livestock Management course.

But boy was that an eye opener.

And later that summer a guy I used
to haul cattle for had hired Gerald

to go up to Quincy, Washington.

And I kind of nosed my way in, said,
Can I pay my share and come and listen?

And after that, it's like, hey, we
need to own our own cows if we want to

have high quality animals to finish.

You know, you could go cherry
pick if people would let you

pick three head out of a hundred.

I, I did that, what was
it, there in New Meadows?

I did that for, I guess, 2001, 11.

I did that for 10 years.

And I was really, really picky at,
at picking out of these thousand

stalkers that would come up.

I would get 8 to 12 head out of there.

Every year I was getting approximately
1 percent out of that deal.

The guy would sell them to me.

And then we finished those, but I
probably 3%, 3 percent of the kind

of cattle that he sent were the
right type for finishing on grass.

I was, I was so picky I
only took one percent.

Well, then I, I got into Red Devon and
Red Angus and, and learned some things

about shape and, and what not that gave
you a more efficient animal on grass

and always was looking for the quality
that came with fine bones, vertical

folds in the hide, butterfat indicators,
but there was a volume, a meat to

bone ratio thing to look at as well.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951:
So you were keeping those.

When did you start getting your own cows?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: So that
would have been the spring of 2005.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: And what
did you, you mentioned Red Devon and

Red Angus, what'd you go look for?

Did you, I'm sure you're looking
for a certain type, but did you

also go for a certain breed at that

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Mainly Red
Angus, a friend of mine that I had

known for 20 years, lived 60 miles
south, and I'd go down there and he'd

let me pick some replacement heifers.

The neighbor just next door,
he let me pick some from him.

And anyway Then bred those to Red Devon.

And the meat quality was great.

We were having a hard time with fertility
and udders and things like that, and

so kind of gave up on the Red Devons.

Eh, ten years later, in
fact, Really just red Angus.

Red Angus was the dominant thing
that I was going for at that point.

So I had, I had some half
Devon, quarter Devon and kind

of worked my way through those.

But yeah, started having
my own cows in 2005 and

I was, In 2018, I was, I was doing three
things by, I, I'd learned how to, how to

raise them and grow grass and Gerald got
me into consulting there in the late,

If you will, like 2008, nine.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: oh yes,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: And anyway,
I was, by 2018 I was consulting, I was

selling vinegar for Golden Valley vinegar
and, and I was raising grass finished

beef and I knew I couldn't do all three.

And so I made a plan at the
beginning of 2018 to be out of

cattle at home by the end of 2020.

And it was very easy to sell
all the meat I had in 2020.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh yeah,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: But currently
I, I own, I have interest in some

really old red angus genetics with
a younger man back in Ohio, the bull

that we're using, well, ampules of
semen on this bull, he was born in

1959, his Great grandad was the very
first bull born in the Red Angus breed.

So we're trying to

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: oh

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
recreate those really good grass

genetics and bring those forward.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951:
That's, that's very interesting,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: So we have
ampules on three kind of, Well, two that

are three quarter brothers and another
one that's a half a brother to those

other two and, and that's in ampules
and then after that it became straws.

So it's, we're very
judicious with those ampules.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh,

yeah.

Imagine so.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: kind of
back to your cow question I never

wanted to own cows to just sell
calves into the, the normal system.

I, I, I wanted conception to consumption.

I was trying to make the,
the, the best piece of meat I

possibly could for my customer.

And the more I could control everything
genetically and epigenetically.

Epigenetics,

the air, the water, the grass.

The mineral, stockmanship, uh, you know,
all of those things, the more you get

those right, the better the genetics work,
the better the genetics, the better they

can deal with all of those other problems.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: One thing you
mentioned there about Red Devon and Red

Angus, and you went with Red Devon for
a And we're also, as we talk about cows

that excel and making sure you have
the right genetics and epigenetics.

How important is that
breed component of it?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: You
can find good cattle for grass,

all grass, in any breed, okay?

You're going to find more of
those in the British breeds

than in the continental breeds.

Okay.

The breeds that haven't been
messed with as much typically

you have more consistency there.

In the meat, and in the, the bell
curve of the shape of the animals.

Sex hormones shut off long bone
growth, so the taller an animal in any

breed in general, the less fertile.

Now, Everything else being equal.

You can have a taller animal
that's more fertile than a shorter

animal if everything else was
wrong with the shorter animal.

Okay, but in general, the shorter down
to a point, the more fertile they are.

Now, I got a Back away
from that a little bit.

The closer you are to the equator, the
shorter in height, the lower in weight,

and the more of an oval there is up front.

The less distance between those
front legs because they have

to dissipate heat and humidity.

The further north you go, the
taller they are, the more they

weigh, and the more of an O.

up front.

They've got to retain
heat in the wintertime.

So, it's, there is a shape,
I call it the solo cup.

You take that cup and turn it on its
side, and on the cow, the little end

of the cup is the cow's head end.

On the bull, the big end of
the cup is the bull's head end.

They're the opposites.

When I was a kid, somebody said, Well,
it's like two triangles back to back.

Well, that wasn't, I
didn't get the visual.

But you think about taking
two of those solo cups and one

facing one way and one the other.

One's the bull.

Bigger on the front end.

One's the cow.

Smaller on the front end.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: And that's,
that's a great segue into our overgrazing

discussion today of, you know,
efficient cattle for grass or selecting

the more efficient type for grass.

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cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: So I
think the solo cup's a great visual

to be able to visualize that.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Ken Redmond
was in charge of crunching the numbers

on, I don't know, 50, 60, 70, 000 head.

They linear measured there over
the course of probably 25 years.

He and some other folks.

And for his master's thesis, he went
back to school after he quit doing that.

He took 9, 500 head, all one breed,
happened to be Simmental, anywhere from

Mexico to Canada, everywhere in between.

Three commonalities.

with cows that had had 10 or 11
calves in a row without skipping.

They had a bigger belly
than the herd average.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Campbell says
they could eat and digest enough for three

in a dry year after they lost their teeth.

They had a wider butt
than the herd average.

Well, that's calving ease.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: ability.

You think about standing behind a
cow or a heifer and looking at her.

You want her to be 40 percent as wide
as she is tall to have calving ease.

If they're too narrow, you're
going to be pulling calves.

But the one trait, That became
the most important to get the 9th,

10th, 11th calf in a row out without
skipping was sloped from hooks down

to pins and boy did it just crank
up and I called Ken and asked him.

Why he felt that that was so important.

And he gave me all the usual
suspects, except what I was thinking.

One, as that pelvis flattens out
and the grow bone, I now call that

the anti fertility bone, sticks up.

Typically that the vulva
is sloping further forward.

And if she doesn't have a big gut and not
digesting well, and it's really green or

whatever, and There's some manure back
there on the vulva, if, if the bull shows

up, he takes in foreign material, the
pelvic floor is sloping into the cow, and

so that drains into the cow, and she gets

cystic ovaries, doesn't breed back,
but if you have plenty of slope

for one, The vulva is vertical, so
there's probably not something on it.

But even if he did take something in, the
pelvic floor is sloping out of the cow.

She doesn't get cystic ovaries,
and she breeds back for that

9th, 10th, 11th calf in a row.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: As we look at
cattle, I see a lot more cattle with

a higher tail head placement and not
slope back there, at least initially

I don't see too much slope there in
a lot of cows that's being bred now.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: 90 plus
percent of the herds that I get asked

to come and go through and help them
out, that is their biggest problem.

Is that is that people I call it,
you know, it's the tail process.

Gerald called it the grow bone.

Well, when I first heard it,
it's like, oh, yeah, growth.

We need some of that.

I now call it the anti fertility bone.

If you've chosen growth, if you've got
that grow, that grow bone sticking up

back there behind the hooks, you've
chosen a cow that's less fertile.

Well, Gene Meyler, another
one of these Not, no, no, no.

Michael McDonald, another one of
these linear measurement guys.

If you're just selling calves
off of the ranch, 40 percent

of the profit is fertility.

A cow having a calf every year.

30 percent is what it
costs to run the cow.

20 percent growth, 40 percent
fertility, 20 percent growth.

We got this teeter totter,
10 percent carcass traits.

Well, 70 percent of the profit
is choosing a cow that's fertile

and doesn't cost a lot to run.

30 percent is what industry wants.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Oh

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: And I
guess a story about that big belly.

Anibal Pordomingo, who writes in
the Stockman Grass Farmer, got his

PhD from New Mexico State in 1995.

that time, the average beef cow in the U.

S.

digested 55 percent of what she ingested.

Well, then he heard Gerald
talk, got his data out.

There are some that digest 70%.

And some only 40.

Well, one time I was in a guy's place,
he kind of had a hodgepodge of cows that

he put together for grass finishing.

And I was there in the spring, he still
had a bale feeder, it was real muddy.

And, and I go, well, these are
your best cows, and these will

work till you can replace them.

But these three over here,
they were that reverse wedge.

They were walking uphill with no guts.

They, they kind of looked like a real puny
bull, rather than a, Walking downhill,

sex hormones shut off, long bone growth,
estrogen in the front end of the female.

So on the top, that solo cup
sloping towards the cow's head

means she's producing more estrogen.

But on the bottom, that, that she's
getting deeper as she goes back.

Well, these, these Herefords had no guts
and they were walking uphill and I told

the guy, I said, The best thing you can
do is Because take those to the sale

on, on Monday, you know, just get rid of
them, then you'll never make any money.

So, so Saturday morning he takes me
to the airport and get to the first

stop, turn my phone back on me.

Here's a message from him.

He said, I've been thinking about
those three that you didn't like.

He said, all the others, they'll eat for
a couple hours, get a drink, eat a little

more, go lay down and chew their cuds.

Those three you didn't like?

They get up in the morning and
they just stand at that round bale

feeder and they eat all day long.

They're going to scale.

So the ones with the biggest bellies
actually don't eat as big of a

percentage of what they weigh.

I guess the best story about
that is 18 years later.

Don Faulkner, a PhD from Arizona
State, said we're getting really good

at predicting percent of body weight
that a group of dry cows would eat.

But we can't tell you, well, would
eat depending on what we fed them.

But what we can tell you
is what individual animals

in that group are eating.

Some are eating twice as much as others.

Well, if they were averaging 3 percent
of body weight, Some were eating 4%

of body weight and some only two.

Well, the one with the great big
belly that weighs 1300 pounds,

eating 2%, she ate 26 pounds Today.

The thousand Pounder with no
guts, eight 40 pounds today.

It's not just about
weight, it's, it's a shape.

And of course, the more butter
fat indicators they have, the,

the easier keeping the cows are.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: So you, you
talked a little bit there about the shape.

What are the butterfat indicators?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Well,
first and foremost, a bald udder.

I mean, if she's already
producing milk, less hair.

There's going to be more hair on what's
considered a bald udder in Bismarck,

North Dakota, than on the Mexican border.

Okay,

but the ones with the least amount of
hair in your environment, in general,

they're producing more butterfat.

A real close second is the number of
vertical hides, which are an indicator

of how loose The hide is, and you
see 'em, you know, if you see 'em

in the neck area, that's good, but
the further back, the ribs they go.

But the ones you really want, heifer
or cow, are the ones that have a

lot of vertical folds from the vulva
down to the other Though, you, you

don't find a lot of those, but boy,
if you find them, you wanna own them.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Interesting.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: There's a book
that was written in the mid 18 hundreds

by Francoise Ong from, from France.

And in 1848, I'm going to paraphrase
slightly, but the French government

said if a person would follow the
treaties as laid down by Monsieur

Guénon, there need be no doubt as
to whether a cow was a good milker.

And a person could tell with certainty
whether a heifer was going to be a

good milker so that you would not get
taken in the purchase of that animal.

That, that doesn't sound like
expected progeny difference.

There need be no doubt, tell with
certainty, and the government

of France said we will pay your
expenses for the rest of your life.

You could tell as many
people on the dairies in the

countryside about this program.

You can, you can get that
book reprinted today.

M I L C H C O W F R A N
S W O G E G U E N O N.

And oh, it's a, there's a
lot of drawings in there.

It's worth, it's worth owning,

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: oh

yes.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
if you're a dairy person.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: I
will have to look that up.

I don't have any dairy cows now.

Of course, I threaten my wife with
buying one or two every once in a

while, and then I come to my senses
and know I don't have that much time.

When we think about producer out
here, they're gonna bring in bulls.

So what should they be looking for
in their bulls they're bringing in?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
Michael Davis from Northeast.

New Mexico, fine gentleman,
very knowledgeable, a good

teacher as it turns out.

One time he asked me, he says,
if I wanted you to buy a bull

for me, what would you buy?

So I started asking him a bunch
of questions and he goes, no,

no, I'm not going to ask that.

You can look at my cows.

And I thought for a while and
thought for a while, and finally I

said, well, I'd figure out what the
biggest problem was in your herd.

You know, leaving
principle, the short stay.

What is holding you back?

I mean, is it fertility?

Is it easy keeping what is it?

We, and then I would bull buy a bull.

That would fix that problem first.

Well, virtually everything about a bull
and a cow are the opposite shape wise,

except for slope from hooks down to pins.

If you've got the grow bones sticking up
in your cow herd, You need an exaggerated,

and you almost can't get it, too much.

You need a lot of slope, from
hooks down to pins in the bull.

And 90 percent of the cow herds that I
get in these days, that is what they need.

And if the hooks on the bull are
not level with the backbone, if

they're down an inch or two, you
just lost an inch or two of slope.

You want the hooks level with the
backbone so that every time he takes

a step, you see one hook bone rock
rotating up above the backbone, and

then the other, and then the other.

And similarly up front, when he
walks, you want to see a shoulder

blade rotate up above the backbone,
and down, and up above, and down.

That's front and rear.

You want Those, the shoulder blades going
up above when they walk on the rear.

You want to see those hook bones rock
rocking up above the backbone, or you

won't get enough to change your herd.

Your offspring are going to be halfway
between your bull and your cow.

It's probably going to take a
couple of generations for most

herds to get one, a more fertile.

Easier keeping cow than
you've currently got.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Well, I like
hearing that because One of the recent

bulls we brought in, I think we don't
have enough slope on our cows and I

bought a bull that's got a lot of slope,
so that makes me feel good about that

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Good.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Because
I was trying to, to get that

slope back where we wanted it.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: In the
trying to get that 40 percent of

rump width on a cow, she's 40 percent
as wide as she is tall for calving,

eating, flushing, and milling.

don't necessarily want a
bull that's wide back there.

You want a bull with
really wide shoulders.

One time I called Gerald Fry and I
said, Boy, I've got this bull that,

he's really got a set of shoulders, but
he just doesn't have much rump on him.

And Gerald, just, Gerald, that fashion,
just like that, he goes, You know, I

think every defensive player in the NFL
knew how big Jim Brown's shoulders were,

but I doubt there's one of them could
have told you what size pants he wore.

So, if, if you want wide rump on a
cow, you need wide shoulders on a bull.

And you need wide shoulders
on a bull for calving ease.

What?

For each inch.

Now this is Michael McDonald.

For, at a year of age, for each inch.

The bull's shoulders are wider
than the length of the rump.

It's two and a half days less gestation.

I'm going to say that all again.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Yeah, say

that

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: one
year of age, for each inch the

bull's shoulders are wider than
the length of the bull's rump.

It's two and a half days less gestation.

Gestation.

So if you can find a bull at a year of
age that's plus two or three, he gets

the calf out ten to fifteen pounds
lighter because the calf came out

five to seven and a half days early.

Now that is calving ease rather
than buying a sissy bull.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: That is, yeah.

I.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: there's
a fellow north of Douglas, Wyoming,

Frank Ethorn, had a bull named Pawpaw.

And when that bull was six
and a quarter years old, his

crest was bigger than his head.

His shoulders were eight and a half
inches wider than the length of his rump.

You think about taking your phone, you
want to blow a picture up and you spread

your fingers apart and everything grows.

Testosterone makes the shoulders
of the bull grow wider faster

than anything else on the bull.

Progesterone makes the rump grow wider
faster than anything else on the cow.

took that massive bull and put him on 100

15 month old heifers in
a 4, 600 acre pasture.

60 days later, there were 92 pregnant
heifers, but it was a long walk home.

If he had just broke that up into
460 acre paddocks and left them in

there six days at a time, I'll bet
there would have been 98 or 99.

He couldn't find them all in 4,

600 acres.

He was by himself with 100 in 4, 000 and
he wasn't worried about calving ease.

He, he had it built in to both the
bull and the females he was breeding.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951:
that is very interesting.

I don't know that I've heard that
statement before about the width

of shoulders, so that's very

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
McDonald, God rest his soul, is

the one that shared that with me.

Another,

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Talk about,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: PhD

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: go ahead.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
with a lot of common sense.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh yeah,

so we talked about slope,
talked about shoulders what else

should we look for in a bull?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Well,
if you want easy keeping cows, you

need large rumens, so they digest a
greater percentage of what they eat.

Well, you don't necessarily want a bull
with the largest belly because he might

like watching basketball from the couch
rather than practicing basketball.

You want a bull whose mother, grandmother,
aunts, and sisters all have big bellies?

You'll know that you're then
breeding easy keeping low

maintenance into the daughters.

The bull with the biggest belly,
the bull that wins the game test, is

probably not the one you want to buy.

Johann Zietzmann wrote a book,
Man, Cattle, and V E L D, which

is grass over there in One of
the better books out there.

You wanna, if you want a bull
that's gonna create grass type easy

keeping daughters, you need a bull
who looks like 8 pounds of sugar.

in a five pound sugar sack on all grass.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: We've
talked a little bit about bulls,

to improve future generations.

Does it make sense, if I've got a cow herd
and, and I'm seeing some problems with it,

does it make sense to buy a bull and work
for a couple generations in the future?

Or would it be better
to go buy better cows?

Sell those cows and get different cows?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Oh, it depends.

Fred Provenza wrote a book called
Nourishment and in there he talks

about the home field advantage.

The junior, the calf, unless you take
him to a higher plane of nutrition

is never going to perform as well
as what mom was eating while he

was in utero and at mom's side.

So back to this epigenetic side of things.

Yeah.

If, and I have gotten to places where,

well, I, I get, I got to one place and
I, I told him to sell three quarters

of his animals and the other quarter,
the other quarter, they were marginal.

But rarely do I do that.

Maybe a quarter of them and let's get
the The epigenetics right you you're

not expressing the genetics that you
have Because there's too many of the

neighbors toxins and not enough minerals
in utero So when they come out They

don't even look like they're supposed to
look and then at mom's side and and on

down the line But then buying a better
bull And you can make a big change

bringing somebody else's animals in.

Well, you've got to bring them
from a similar environment

or they're not going to work.

Different horses for different courses.

Kind of back to this, a cow at
the equator, a cow at Bismarck,

North Dakota, a different shape.

No, no, a different package.

They're, they're, they're narrower
and not as deep in the chest

at the equator than they are.

at Bismarck, North Dakota.

They're deeper in the chest and
wider in the chest at Bismarck

because they've got to retain heat.

You don't want to be bringing cows
that require 50 acres to make a

living to, A place where it only
takes two acres to make a living.

They'll get too fat to rebreed.

That's a whole nother story.

But dissimilarly, cows that grew up on
two acres and you take them where it takes

fifty, they are, unless you're planning
to supplement, they're going to suffer.

So you want, If you're going to buy
cows, you want to buy them from as

harsh of an environment as you've got.

Probably the best time to buy is
if all of those cows are equal.

All the calves are weaned at
the same time, they all had a

calf last year, da da da da da.

And they're all pregnant now.

About a month before they
would normally stop breeding.

Feeding hay, if you went to look then,
the ones that are shedding the earliest.

The ones that maintain their body
condition on the poorest feed.

Now, there's a rib slope angle
story you'd have to kick in there

to, to kind of really cement that.

The ones that have the most vertical
folds, the least hair on their udder.

That a cow has a U neck, it drops down.

R S T U V, a ewe neck, a bull has a crest,
a bull has a hump, a bull has an upside

down ewe, a cow, a fertile cow has a ewe.

I mean, looking for those things.

But rarely do I tell somebody,
to get rid of all their cows.

Usually it's in the 10 to 20 percent
and then try some of these things.

And then you'll, you'll find
another 10 percent probably next

year that you want to get rid of.

But if with that better bull and
better epigenetics, you'll start seeing

the genetics that you already own.

And then the better shape, which
it would, you know, if you're

70, You gotta go find a bull.

You're, you're not gonna breed this

from inside your herd.

And, and I guess I gotta go
back, Cal, to finding the bull.

The more uniform the cow
herd you're buying out of.

Somebody, years of thoughtful breeding.

They've been trying to do this
versus, they've got quite a variety

of shapes and sizes of cows.

You're not gonna have the
cookie cutter calf crop.

out of one of their bulls.

But if somebody has the cookie cutter
cows, you can buy just about any bull

from them and you'll get the cookie
cutter calf crop out of your cows.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: You know, Steve,
I'm, I'm interrupting you right there.

That is, there's been tons of knowledge
drop, but that I had never even thought

about, but that's such a valid point.

If it's coming from a uniform herd,
those, those cows are all very similar.

And, and you're going to
get some consistency there.

If you go to a herd where they're,
you got all shapes and sizes, it

doesn't have that consistency that's
been bred for, for generations.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: And, and, and
I call it years of thoughtful breeding.

You know, there's line breeding, there's
inbreeding, there's close breeding.

People talk about masculine and feminine.

Well, if we had 50 people in the room.

And you had him write it out, you would
probably have 50 slightly different

descriptions of what's a masculine.

There are indicators for feminine,
excuse me, for fertile females.

And there are indicators
for fertile males.

That's what I want to talk about,
because the other is too subjective.

pretty objective.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
What is a fertile male?

There's a book, Herd Bull
Fertility, by James Dresen.

If you use bulls to get
your cows pregnant, I highly

recommend owning that book.

Herd Bull Fertility, James Dresen.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: I was
looking over towards my shelf.

I don't remember if I have that book

or

not.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: a yellow book.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: if
I do have it, I don't recall

reading

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
it's a yellow book.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: You
mentioned those fertility indicators.

Let's go back over those fertility
indicators on cows and on bulls.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Well, on both,
sex hormones shut off long bone growth.

Estrogen in the front end of the cow, so
the cows, everything else being equal,

the cows walking downhill on level
ground are producing more estrogen.

Bulls who are walking uphill because
testosterone shuts off long bone

growth in the back end of the
bull, are producing more estrogen.

Bulls that look like they're walking
uphill on level ground are more fertile.

If you find a two year old
that's walking uphill, buy it.

Usually you don't really see it
until they're three on the bull side.

On the cow side, if she's level two,
she'll be level at three and she'll be,

you know, you, the downhill bull calves,
heifer calves are all, They're all kind

of walking downhill, but if you find
a bull at two that's walking uphill,

he's gonna be a man when he grows up.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Now
walking downhill on Heifers said

two if they're level they're gonna
be level throughout their life.

So at what point can
you differentiate that?

Downhillness on a heifer

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Oh
heck, at three months of age,

six months of age, nine months of
age yeah you, can tell early on.

I

guess that's what to say about that.

And you're, you're gonna be
thinking, oh, all of these bull

calves are walking downhill.

Well, yeah, they are.

Maybe some time in their future.

Second year of life,
they'll start leveling out.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: beyond
Walking uphill or walking downhill.

What else are we

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: So
a bull's head should be one

half as wide as it is long.

You're measuring outside the
eyes, the pole to the muzzle.

And the more of his lower jaw you
see, the more masculine he is.

On a cow, this is going to sound
strange until I finish it, you want

a cow's head to be twice as long as
it is wide, plus one to two inches.

If it's shorter than one inch, it's
Longer, she's too masculine, not fertile.

If it's longer than two
inches, she's high maintenance.

And the less of that lower lip
you see, the more fertile she is.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: I'm gonna
have to go look at my mouths of my cows

and see what I

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: so
then, to the other end, small

diameter tail, male and female.

That's going to be butterfat.

That's going to be tender meat.

Butterfat is easy keeping.

You're breeding butterfat
into the daughters.

You've got cows that
have a lot of butterfat.

They're easier keeping
than those that don't have.

A lot of butter fat.

On the males on the back, when the, when
the bulls are born, the flatter they are

across the top of the shoulder blades
and the deeper in the chest, when they're

a week old, you can see a difference.

On the, on the females, the wider they
are across the back end and the deeper the

belly, you can see a difference at, at a
week of age or, or at least by a month.

When you put the bulls in.

You got a hundred cows and you've got
six or seven bull calves following the

bull who's following the cows around.

We got early libido.

You want to write those numbers down.

But on a bull calf, blocky head,

flat across the shoulders and depth
of chest, small diameter tail,

and then slope from hooks to pins.

Slope from hooks, which are level
with the backbone, down to pins.

Those would be the major indicators.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: information
there As I look at the clock, it's

about time for us to wrap up and move
to our famous four questions, but before

we do, is there something else you
would like to add to this discussion?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
That is a good question.

Yes, the angle of the last rib.

So, on a bull, we want as deep and
as wide as we can get them up front.

The thing that will do
that is vertical ribs.

It shoves those front legs apart.

Those toes on a lot of bulls that point
out to the side, they're now pointing

straight forward or slightly pigeon toed.

Gives you more width between the top of
the shoulder blades, a big rib eye muscle.

Well, a bull who has really vertical
ribs, because he has wide shoulders,

will give you daughters whose ribs
angle back, that last rib pointing

somewhere between the hock and the ankle.

Those girls, those cows, tend to
take better care of their calf.

Cows, or heifers, but cows whose
ribs are too vertical, they look good

year round, but they bring in a dink
calf because they're taking care of

themselves instead of their calf.

And you won't get that rib angled
back in your cows unless you

have vertical ribs in the bulls.

And I see too many bulls, what you
want is that last rib pointing at the

prepuce, where the bull's penis comes out.

I see too many bulls that
angle back, you know, pointing

at the back toe or something.

And you're not fixing the
problem of masculine cows.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: the ribs
are sloped too much on a bull,

what does that do to his daughters?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: too vertical.

They're too

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951:
They're too vertical.

But if you can get a vertical ribs on
a bull, then you get the right slope

on his

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
And that right slope?

Somewhere between the hock and the ankle.

Actually,

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Very good.

Well Steve, this has been an
enlightening discussion, but it's time

we move to our famous four questions.

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cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Same four
questions we ask of all of our guests.

Our first question.

What is your favorite grazing
grass related book or resource?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
there was a book first written

in 46 and updated in 1964.

Factors.

Affecting calf crop.

You can get a PDF of that online.

Send me an email, I'll send it to
you and then your listeners can,

can get you to send it to them.

If you already know something about a cow,

that's the best book I've ever read.

Unless you live in Florida,
start reading at chapter six,

or you're gonna think I'm crazy.

The first six chapters, the first
five chapters are pretty much

the deep, deep, humid south.

But for everything else,
that is a really good book.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Excellent,
I I'm not familiar with that book.

So that's that's a great

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: So another
just aside one time Gerald was going

to Australia to judge a livestock
show and he said, I won't be back for

three weeks, we won't be able to talk.

Okay.

I mean, at that time we're talking
a couple of times a week, I suppose.

About 10 days later, he calls
me and he goes, I'm like, well,

Gerald, are you back already?

He said, no, no, no.

But I found this book.

He said, it's better than Bonsma.

I'm like, well, what is it?

I get my pencil out and he goes,
the Milk Cow in England by E.

R.

Cochran.

And I'm like, Gerald, I gave you
that book four or five years ago.

It's actually so long to read.

You'll have to get it from
your England or the continent.

There are no copies in the U.

S.

Like aid books or alibis books
or book finder or something.

The, the, The freight will be more,
but it's the M I L C H cow in England.

It was written in 1944 by E.

R.

Cochran.

It's about dairy, but 80 plus
percent of that book is beef as well.

It is a very good book also.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: oh very good
very good You know, I ask this question

on every episode and I love it when we get
books that I'm not familiar with and I'm

like these are, are two and you mentioned
some others that I'm not familiar with, so

that's wonderful for me because I get to
go spend more money and do more reading.

My wife will be really

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Okay,

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Our
second question, what's your

favorite tool for the farm?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: electric fence.

Yeah, electric fence.

Hands down electric fence.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Our third
question, what would you tell

someone just getting started?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: I hate my
answer because it's the answer I got

and it's like, well, that doesn't
tell me anything, but it all, it

does actually all start in the soil.

And so if you've got a degraded
resource, whether it was farm ground

that was planted back to grass or
somebody's just left cattle set stocked

forever on there, and you've kind of
got to bring it back to life, well,

that electric fence will help you.

And there's a number of different
grazing ideas out there.

But until you get that right, you've
got to make up for what is not in the

soil, With a mineral program, and my
biggest complaint about mixed minerals

is the vast majority to compete on price,
even if they've got a great recipe, to

compete on price, they get the individual
minerals that originated in China.

Almost every mineral coming
out of China has cadmium in it.

The first thing cadmium does in a
cow's body is screws up their ability

to regulate internal body temperature.

They're too hot in the
summer and don't breed.

They're too cold in the
winter and require more feed.

The way you can know if you have
that without testing, the way to

know if you have that in your herd,
If you have a slight hump in the

cow's back from the shoulders, it
goes up two or three inches and then

drops back down to the hook bones.

Classic cadmium toxicity look.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh, yes,

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: So if
you clean, and so anymore, all I'm

doing is using sea salt one of the
detox clays, Redmond conditioner,

desert dining man, that sort of
thing to get rid of the neighbor.

Unless you've got listeners who live
where the wind does not blow, there

are things from the neighbor blowing in
and they negatively affect your cows.

So, making up for what is not in
your soil, and as you, improve

your grazing and cover crops and
interseeding and that sort of thing.

The diversity, the biology, pretty
quick, the bricks of your grass

and the diversity is up and then
you need fewer and fewer and fewer

supplements but get clean supplements.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951:
get clean supplements.

Excellent advice, yes.

And lastly, where can others
find out more about you?

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952:
I have a website, Taylor

with an I, taylormadecattle.

com and on there, And I'm hoping
to get a copy of this too.

I'll put it on there.

There are 12 or 13 videos.

There's a videos tab.

There's 12 or 13 videos and then just
some other general information on there.

My phone number is 208.

3154726.

I want to go back to the website.

There's a schedule tab and I try to
update when I'm traveling and where

I'm traveling and approximately when
I'll be there and if you're somewhere

along the route and you would like a
consultation or to put together a field

day on your farm or a two day school.

call me and we can talk about that.

And then my email address is steve
at t a i l o r made cattle dot com.

steve at taylor made cattle dot com.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Steve,
we, we appreciate you coming

on and sharing with us today.

steve_1_02-07-2025_162952: Well, I'm
surprised we didn't use any slides.

But thank you for the opportunity.

And I just hope that this
information was helpful.

We'll cause some people to look
maybe in slightly different way

areas than they've looked before, and

we'll add to the bottom line and they
and their, their future generations

can stay on the land instead of moving
away like we see so much these days.

cal_1_02-07-2025_172951: Oh, yes.

I agree.

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