Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

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0:00:01 - Cal
Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast, Episode 138.

0:00:06 - Angus
Understand. First you must understand the production systems, and then you have to go into marketing.

0:00:12 - Cal
You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, cal Hartage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today Impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenitive Grazing course To teach ranchers like you easy to follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg slash grazing. It's n-o-b-l-e dot org. Forward slash grazing.

On today's show we have Angus McIntosh from South Africa on to share about his journey how he is branding himself, branding his products, farmer Angus and how he's getting them to the consumer, and what he's doing on his farm. How he started at ground zero and, for the past 16 years, been working on his operation. Really good episode. I think you'll enjoy it For 10 seconds about the farm. Well, the drought continues. We're still hopeful for rain. Our heart goes out to those people in Tennessee where the hurricane just dumped massive rains on them. If you happen to watch Justin Rhodes on YouTube, he's got some videos showing in the middle of the storm and stuff. It's really interesting. I encourage you to go watch it. It's amazing how much damage it did, also for the farm.

Normally I see a post about the Ozark Fall Farm Fest. Usually it's because of Travis Ellis from episode 26. He always goes there and he posts and I see it and I'm like, oh, I wish we would have planned for it and went. Well, last week we saw the post and we didn't have anything planned. So we went up there for the weekend, airbnb'd a house nice old house that creaked when you walked. But it was a really enjoyable weekend. We were able to go out to the Ozark Fall Farm Fest and really enjoyed it. I enjoyed seeing the equipment, the booths and the animals. I think the animals there are a great addition. That's one reason I like going to the state fairs. But this got me the benefit of the farm show with the animals. So I told my wife next year, when we talk about Tulsa State Fair. Remind me I'd rather go to the Ozark Fall Farm Fest, and if you're in that area near Springfield Missouri, it's well worth it, of course. Now you've got to wait till the next one For 10 seconds about the podcast if you listened last week, you know we had a little bit of an audio issue.

I think we've resolved those and we've uploaded new versions. It should be better. Shouldn't have any problem today. However, if you do hear an issue, just let me know. For the Grazing Grass Insiders, our monthly Zoom will be coming up October 22nd at 7 pm. We're going to talk about the types of grazing and what type you should use. So if you're an insider, be watching for that. If you're not an insider, you can find out more information at our website, grazinggrasscom. Enough of that, let's talk to Angus Angus. We want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass podcast. We're excited you're here today.

0:04:29 - Angus
Listen, I'm more excited than you are. I can tell you it's what I've always loved about. So I've been practicing regenerative agriculture for 16 years and all of my leadership well, not all of it, but most of it comes out of the US. So it's wonderful to be speaking with you and you know this network that you've tapped into. You know the sort of paradox of American agriculture is that American agriculture gave birth to this monstrosity that is cage animal agriculture that is just destructive in every way. And yet America is also the place where the counter movement, the regenerative movement, the grass movement, is the strongest in the world. It's a fascinating situation actually.

0:05:13 - Cal
Right, and that's so true. Yes, so to get started, angus, tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation.

0:05:22 - Angus
Yeah, cal. So I manage a wine farm outside Stellenbosch which is near Cape Town in South Africa. It's called Speer. I've been doing this for 16 years Before that. Well, I actually grew up very rurally on a farm in the eastern part of the country. It was so rural that Zulu was the first language that I spoke. And then my father went into parliament in South Africa. The parliament was in Cape Town, and so we lived half a year on a farm and half a year in Cape Town. Anyway, I then studied management accounting. I went to London, I worked as a stockbroker for Goldman Sachs and I was sort of four and a bit years into my stockbroking career and I didn't really want to go to Tokyo, which is where they wanted to promote me. So my wife and I made the decision because we had at that stage two young kids to quit the whole Goldman Sachs lifestyle. We managed to get an opportunity to build a house on this farm which turned out to be a clay house.

So clay and adobe. And I then, in June of 2008, read Michael Poland's book the omnivore's dilemma, where the book I'm not sure how familiar you are with the book, but it's about there's three parts to the book and it's basically traces a meal from source to to finish. And the middle part is about a grass-based farmer who happens to be Joel Salatin, and it was July of 2008. I read the book. I was so inspired by it, I put it down. I said to my wife I want to be like Joel. So I've been trying to be like Joel for the last 16 years. So there are seven product lines that we produce.

The latest one being wine that we released two months ago. So we're just over two months into a wine brand.

0:07:10 - Cal
So when you came back to South Africa on that farm and built your house, what was happening on the farm at?

0:07:17 - Angus
that time. That is a wonderful question, Carl. I call it ground zero. So the history of that farm is that it had been. Yeah, so we're in quite a brittle environment. Where we are, Our annual rainfall is 650 to 700 millimeters of rain. That's the long, long-term average. 700 mils, I think, is 28 inches.

0:07:42 - Cal
I was just looking it up because I'm not sure right off, yeah, so however, we had nine years of drought leading up to 2023.

0:07:53 - Angus
Our rains come in quite a short period, which is the sort of our winter, which is your summer. So we get them, usually a bit in May, june, july, august, a little bit maybe in September, and then it gets quite hot and dry them, usually a bit in May, june, july, august, a little bit maybe in September, and then it gets quite hot and dry. So our summers are. We can get up comfortably, get up to 40 degrees Celsius, which I think is close to 100 Fahrenheit, not humid at all, very dry. So I'm digressing a little bit, but I'm just going to sort of talk about the climate. What's amazing about our situation is that the Apartheid government built an irrigation system for approximately 600 farms, where they put huge pipes underwater through a very, very big area, and so our irrigation water. We are not having to turn on any pump. There's no electricity costs involved. All we do is we open this huge valve or tap oh yeah, five and a half bars of pressure.

It's unbelievable and it's super cheap oh yeah, the water and the and the and the cost. So so we have this amazing thing, a cow, where we get irrigation in summer and rain in winter. The result of that is my cattle. I never have to feed a bale.

0:09:15 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:09:16 - Angus
I never have to buy any food from outside. They survive entirely. What's on the pastures, and then in winter, what's been grown off the pasture, pasture.

0:09:24 - Cal
So we're very, very, very lucky like that oh yes, it sounds like a great advantage to have that in in place. Now you mentioned about your temperatures in summer. How cold does it get during the winter for you?

0:09:41 - Angus
when I tell you what it, how cold it gets for us, you, you guys are going to sort of laugh and say cold. You don't know what you're talking about.

0:09:47 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:09:49 - Angus
In winter we might get one or two frosts a year. So it could go down to sort of zero degrees Celsius at night On a really cold morning, for us it's below five Celsius, and then it usually in winter sort of will heat up to 15, 20 degrees or so. So so it's it's. It's pretty mild it is. It's a pretty mild winter. It's probably as mild as florida in winter, oh yeah, maybe even not quite a bit colder than that. So so yeah, that's the situation. We, we, we are um the farm, I'm afraid I'm talking hectares, I, I think. I think acres is 2.2 or something.

The conversion almost 2.5 so 1 hectare to 2.5 acres and 50 hectares.

0:10:38 - Cal
The whole farm, oh okay however.

0:10:41 - Angus
So that's what? Over 2 000 acres, I think, and and and part of that 30, 35 hectares ish is where we.

We have a hotel and restaurants and shops, oh yes, and an organic vegetable garden, etc. And then the rest of the farm is 21 hectares of vineyards uh, we're in a wine growing area 116 hectares of irrigated pasture. We have about 150 or so hectares of winter grazing, so when it rains in winter, the cattle can graze there about twice a year. And then we have a rewilding area, or what we call a feynbos restoration area. So the feynbos is the Afrikaans name for the original biome or the plants. Oh, okay, or that we think you know, because there weren't.

The first white people who came here was in 1652 and they didn't have cameras, so we don't actually know what this area looked like. Oh yes, we're just speculating, so so, but this is an area where the animals don't graze and we're trying to, you know, resurrect what we think is the original buyer. Yeah, and, and, and I mean we I've worked very hard over the 16 years on building a brand. Everything I sell goes under the farmer angusus brand, which you and I were joking about earlier. It's confusing because of the Angus cattle breed, but interestingly, if you allow me to digress on the brand development, oh yes.

It's Joel Salatin who said that 50% of your time needs to be spent on marketing and 50% of your time on production. And I've, over time, realized the truth of that statement. And within the production, you know, I've emphasized on productions to try and drive down production costs and have protocols and systems in place all the time. And then, of course, staff is a huge thing. You know, Cal, I've got two staff who finished high school. You know it's I mean mean literacy is a real problem in southern africa yes so.

So that is a very big drive for us is the social work and trying to upskill our staff. We we're at the stage now. We've mostly got really good people. But yeah, I could bore you for hours about the the problems that we've run into on the farm. Obviously, for us labor is much cheaper than for you guys. Oh yeah, it's a very different economy. But we sell. We've got one product that really goes to a big national retailer, but the rest all goes direct to consumer. And because we have the brand, we are what we call price makers, whereas commodity producers are price takers. Yes, In South Africa, Cal, the farm gate prices for weaner oxen or heifers in the last seven years has gone up by 1.3%.

0:13:39 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:13:42 - Angus
So in South Africa, from 2010 to 2024, in 14 years we have lost 56% of our cattle farmers They've gone bust and 54% of our corn farmers. So when I was in Virginia in August, jim Gerrish oh my gosh, I can't believe it Kit Farrow, oh, yes, kit farrow, kit farrow, yes, and kit farrow said that between in the us, between 2017 and 2022, 142 000 farmers in america went bust.

0:14:12 - Cal
This is just the most shocking statistic oh yes, the numbers are crazy when you start looking into that. Yeah, cal.

0:14:21 - Angus
I don't know. I don't know how it ends, but at some stage I mean let's talk later on about it I've got a few ideas as to how I think this thing can change, or this negative can change for three years he had been practicing a lot of this rotational grazing things on his farms in zimbabwe. So he had four farms, employed, 350 people and mugabe. In those days he, mugabe, came onto his farm and said you got 24 hours to leave oh yes, it's unbelievable what happened.

Zimbabwe absolutely incredible. Um, and you know, prior to that, zimbabwe was the breadbasket of Africa. They were the best farmers in the entire continent. They're incredible. So I was lucky. For three years he was my mentor and a lot of the stuff he hadn't done either. You know he hadn't done broiler chickens before.

We hadn't done layers in egg mobiles, but sort of the principles, I guess, of regenerative agriculture. He understood well. But sort of the principles, I guess, of regenerative agriculture, he understood well. And during the time that he was there, the first year or two, I guess we would sell our product as pasture reared. Pasture reared, oh yes. And then, cal, someone says, oh, I do pasture reared. And another guy in another part of the country goes I do pasture reared. So I said to my wife this is crazy, crazy man, these guys aren't doing pasturiered. They don't understand the first thing about it, they can barely spell it and right. And she said, well, you got to brand it around you. And and I resisted because I said to her I'm not doing this for me, oh yeah, for the regenerative agriculture movement. And she kept going on and she was right, because in branding something around a person it immediately makes the story more interesting.

And fundamentally, I think humans like a story. That's why you like podcasts.

0:16:18 - Cal
Oh yeah, yeah, it's the story, the journey, learning about people.

0:16:22 - Angus
Yes, I agree, yeah, so I've paid epic amount of school fees. I just hope that's why I open source everything You'll see on my website. All my Eggmobile plans are available to download. Everything we've got is open sourced because we don't want other people to pay the school fees that we have.

0:16:41 - Cal
Oh yeah, with your farm and your marketing. I think that's an interesting angle because, to be honest and I've mentioned this on the podcast before I think that marketing is so important, but so many farmers are resistant to it, and it sounds like you were resistant to it at first as well.

0:17:00 - Angus
How did you Well, yeah, so my job at Goldman Sachs was equity sales, oh yeah, so it was basically a stockbroker. So I mean, selling is something I've enjoyed doing. I love talking and I'm quite passionate, and so the marketing part was easy. The hard part of the marketing thing is to try and get the appropriate message across and to work on your packaging. That's taken us a hell of a long time, but we are very, very close to having all our packaging finally.

Look the same to have the same look and feel same font, I mean, because we've got loads of different products. You know whether it's bone broth or a tea that we make, or you know we freeze dry egg whites and and egg white powder, I mean, and then there's salami and beef and eggs and wine to try and have the similar palette from which one's painting. So that that's been a real challenge, and then I'll tell you what's. What was really amazing for me on the marketing was this august thing at salad on joel salatin's farm, where a guy called Ty Lopez spoke.

0:18:08 - Cal
Okay.

0:18:09 - Angus
I don't know that name. Yeah, look him up. I mean, he's got millions of followers. L-o-p-e-z is his surname, ty T-A-I. He was actually one of Salad's first interns, believe it or not, but he's a business coach, et cetera, et cetera. So he spoke for these couple of hours on what he calls the 39 triggers of marketing Now, but let's go back to farmers. Most farmers just want to produce. They do not want to market, they don't trust marketers. Marketers are snake oil salespeople, et cetera, et cetera. The fact, though, cal, is, if you're not prepared to market, you will be a price taker, whereas if you can market you will be a price maker.

Now there's a possibility, and I know a couple of farmers who've done this. They are mostly commodity big producers, but they have a little sideline which they're slowly but surely increasing, where they sell direct to the consumer. So you don't have to.

it's not an either, or it's not either or, in my case, everything is down the niche line, trying to get the high margins branded da, da, da, da da. I'm just not big enough to be a commodity producer. I'm not, and also our production costs in the regenerative model are way too high. So we couldn't be commodity producers even if we wanted to, you know. I mean, we've got enough volume on maybe one or two of the products. Oh yeah, it's just not a game I'm prepared to be in.

So just back to the marketing thing. So this Tai Lopez talks about the 39 triggers of marketing and he says the first one, and I actually changed my website within days of being with him because of this. He says the first thing, top of everything, is called the blunt reward. Okay, so if we go to my website now it's farmeranguscoza and you pull up my website, you'll see that if you go to the landing page I've put in right, the first thing you're going to read is welcome to where you can buy the finest regenerative produce and learn why and how regenerative agriculture heals the earth, provides delicious, clean food. So that is what essentially we're about you can buy our products and you can learn about regenerative agriculture, which is this healing exercise.

That's the blunt reward, whereas before that the website had little pictures and a thing that said we believe in nature's power to sustain healthy life. Da, da, da, da da. That's not the blunt reward.

0:20:44 - Cal
So sorry, angus, jump in there. So the blunt reward is you're just telling the viewer, or whoever's landed on your page, what you're doing. Correct, so they don't have to hunt for it Absolutely.

0:20:58 - Angus
So what Ty did is? He said okay, let's go talk more about the blunt reward. Who of you in the audience has a website? So the hands go up. Who of you is prepared for me to look at the website and critique it in public here? And the hands went down. No, no, no. Actually, a lot of people were prepared. And then he looked at people's business cards, he looked at their brochures and it's amazing, Cal, how few people have their blunt reward. Slap bang right in the middle.

0:21:29 - Cal
Well, I'll be honest. I have a few websites and I would say zero of them have the blunt reward right there at the beginning. This is really interesting to me. It's fascinating.

0:21:40 - Angus
It's got me, it's really got me thinking. And then, of course, all the other triggers are supportive of that thing. They're elaborating on it. So, for example, if your target market is only men, then you need to have lots of statistics in there. Men love statistics.

0:21:55 - Cal
Oh yeah, Women not so.

0:21:58 - Angus
But that's how you refine it. But those are refinements further down, at the top and center of everything, is the blunt reward.

0:22:05 - Cal
Oh, yes, that's very interesting, angus. I've got his website pulled up. I'm gonna have to do some more looking on that. Oh, you found his website excellent. I I do. Yeah, I've got it pulled up here, so I will have to spend some more time looking at that, let's. I think the marketing aspect is very interesting. I think being a price taker versus a price setter is very important and I readily admit we're too much on that price getter side. We're working towards that price setter side, so hopefully we get there. I actually want to rephrase that we will get there at some time in the future. We're working that way. But let's talk. Let's change gears just a little bit and we can probably already transition and call this the overgrazing section sponsored by Redmond.

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Learn more at redmondagriculturecom, where we're going to dive in deeper into your farm and what you're doing on your farm, because I think, for one, we could talk that marketing a long time, but let's talk about your farm and maybe we'll get some of that other a little bit later. So first on your farm. You've already talked about your environment. You talked about how many hectares that are set aside for each thing. Let's focus on your grazing animals right now. What do you have in way of grazing animals and how are you doing that? How are you managing those?

0:24:28 - Angus
so we have cattle, we have laying hens, we have pigs, we used to have sheep but we stopped the sheep because of theft. So South Africa is a very criminal society. And listen, cal sheep's the number one takeaway, makes no, sound super comfortable to carry on your shoulders and it feeds a lot of people. Oh yeah, and we used to do broiler chickens. Unfortunately, I tried broilers three times that had closed the business. My mortalities were too much and my slaughter costs were just exorbitant Because there's no infrastructure here to support small-scale farming.

So, I would have to drive almost 100 miles to go and get my animals slaughtered. So you've got to drive with a pickup and a trailer. Come back the next day. You've got to drive the refrigerated truck there and come back. It was epic.

So, anyway, the animals that we graze in the pasture, the cattle, the laying hens and the pigs the cattle we move twice a day, every day, and, as I explained to you earlier, we've got this amazing climate. We don't have a barn because our winters are super mild, because we've got this irrigated pasture in summer and winter grazing and rain. In winter we have green growing grass all year round. There are times when the nutrition is down a little bit in the grass and the cattle sort of stabilize, but mostly they're just growing all year, so we never have to bring in food from outside. The only things that we do bring in from outside from the cattle, are the ingredients of the free choice mineralics, which is another idea that we got out of the US, and there are very, very few farms in this country that do the free choice minerals. It just boggles my mind.

0:26:13 - Cal
So are you doing pre-mixed minerals?

0:26:15 - Angus
No, so we will buy all the raw minerals and then in the compartment of the wagon. We will put the minerals in.

0:26:23 - Cal
So that cafeteria style, Exactly cafeteria style minerals.

0:26:27 - Angus
It's a brilliant description. So the cattle we move twice a day. Every day We've currently got about 175 cattle on the farm. We'll be close to 200 when the calving season finishes. We aim to calve the carving season finishes, we aim to carve when nature carves. So in our spring, early summer, which is right now, I can talk about the cattle breeds.

0:26:50 - Cal
I do. I love breeds and I know you're new to the podcast. That's always my question what breeds are you running?

0:26:58 - Angus
Okay, I'll come back to the cattle, if you don't mind?

okay, yeah, that's great I'll talk about the chickens, so we've got 6 000 laying hens in eggmobiles, which is another american invention, and they are incredibly aggressive graziers. Though the eggmobiles we move, they're on wheels and we move them every single day to fresh pasture. If we don't, they completely overgraze and overfertilize the area. Yeah, so that's an important thing for us to do. The pigs is a very different story. The pigs we move approximately once a week. We have them in areas where we want them to open up the bush and really get their noses I mean, that pig snout is just the greatest agricultural tool ever developed and get them in to really turn up the soil and bring fertility into a very degraded farm.

You know we spoke earlier about the farm, but I actually should tell you a little bit more about what used to happen here. So for a long, long time it was the university's farm and they just did all sorts of tests on it. And then at one stage, they grew tobacco on it and they fumigated all the soils of methyl bromide and then planted tobacco in and then, on an 80 hectare block which is what what? Nearly 200 acres they did carrots without rotation for seven years.

Oh, yes, so you can imagine the poison that they had to put on by the end of that time and lots of artificial fertilizers, et cetera, et cetera. So it has been a genuine regenerative product or project, in our case, of rebuilding the soils. The what's really gratifying is that every time and we do this three on three yearly intervals we test the carbon in the soils. It's gone up and up and up and and we've actually been paid carbon credits three times already for increasing the carbon in our soils.

0:29:03 - Cal
Oh yes, so another income stream there.

0:29:07 - Angus
Yes, yes, but I have to tell you, Cal, it's not a big income stream, and the carbon credit market itself collapsed about two years ago on the bearers' frauds regarding trees. So it was looking very positive, the carbon credits, but that's just completely collapsed. However, I do believe that in the future we will have a more how can I say? Wider view of accounting, and then farmers who are improving the ecosystems, their land, will become more valuable, They'll be paid more. I see a future of oh, yeah, yeah, and then, and then, and then the yeah. So that's the grazing and and, and we have a. We have a rule on the farm where it's at least six weeks before any animal is allowed to come back onto that piece of land.

0:30:00 - Cal
Oh, so letting it rest for six weeks. One thing you mentioned, there was the land. The university had it and growing carrots on that one section. When you got started did you have to go in and plant your different forage species?

0:30:15 - Angus
Yes, correct. Yes, so we had established all the pastures no-transcript. And the mix in the pasture slowly changes. As the soils get more fertile, the mixes change differently. John Kempf is very persuasive in talking about forbs and how dominant the US prairies are with forbs actually and how good they are in the soil. So a long-term project for us is the introduction of more forbs.

0:31:10 - Cal
Oh yes, so with your pastures you're letting it rest six weeks before any other animal there With your chickens, are you moving those behind your cows or those on a separate area?

0:31:24 - Angus
No, they. They are in the same. They will be sometimes in the same area, so the cattle will graze through the chicken pasture, However. However, we will leave a space of at least seven to 10 days for the chickens to go. In other words, we won't have a cattle grazing directly in front of the chickens because the pasture it's just too hard on the pasture oh yeah, and then the chickens hammer it immediately that that that's why we want that long recovery.

So so 10 days then. Then the chickens can go over where the cattle used to be. And we're, and we're, we're fine with that. Oh yeah, but, but, but, but not less. I mean, some people have talked about the chickens following the cattle scratching open their manure piles. We tried that. It's just too hard on the pasture, oh yes. And and and it didn't really work for us.

0:32:21 - Cal
Well, that's interesting because I do hear a lot of people like follow your cattle with chickens just a day or two later so they can scratch through the manure.

0:32:31 - Angus
However, Sorry to interrupt you, but the other last.

I just need to finish that chickens following cattle thought before we move on. I just need to finish that chickens following cattle thought before we move on. Our other complication is that we've got 6,000 hens in 21 eggmobiles. So to move those behind the cattle is a logistical nightmare. Oh, wow, two, our eggmobiles are quite big. They're three and a half meters wide by eight meters long. So you know, to have those things cruising around the cattle it's too difficult. And then finally, we have a predator problem with the chickens. It's a thing called a caracal which is very close to your bobcat. Oh okay, and that thing loves the chickens. I mean, on these farms it's only been guinea fowl, so now it's suddenly got dinner with a white tablecloth as well. So we have an area, a 30-hectare block, that we've sort of tried to keep fenced off to keep those cats out from the chickens.

0:33:38 - Cal
So you have a perimeter fence. You hope you try and keep those cats out of there from.

0:33:44 - Angus
Yeah, in addition to that, we've got people moving around during the day and then when my people knock off at five, I employ security guards at night to look after. Not at night, they have to stay with their hens until it's dark. Oh, yeah, and make sure they're all inside the eggmobiles and then lock the eggmobiles.

0:34:05 - Cal
Oh, okay.

0:34:06 - Angus
Because otherwise that predator, that bobcat cousin will just massacre them.

0:34:11 - Cal
Oh yeah, yeah, Interesting. I was wondering about predators. Do you have to worry about any predators, for you mentioned your sheep. You've got some human predators there. Do you have any other issues with your pigs or cattle?

0:34:26 - Angus
Listen, the two-legged predator that likes to steal the sheep. Good luck to him trying to catch pigs. Right, that's true yeah, and I'll tell you if he makes the mistake of getting into the nursery where our pigs are. Currently we've got 16 gilts giving birth for the first time.

0:34:44 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:34:45 - Angus
They are unbelievably aggressive. I mean, he tries to get close to baby pig, Mama pigs. There's nothing left of this guy. So, I don't listen. Maybe they do steal the pigs, but I dare them to try and steal them.

0:35:03 - Cal
You're not seeing much losses there.

0:35:05 - Angus
Not losses there, the cattle. Fortunately we've also got quite big perimeter fencing, so for these guys to steal the cattle they'd need to get a big vehicle onto the farm and that would be stopped. In other parts of South Africa, cattle rustling is a real thing, but for us, fortunately, we're okay.

0:35:22 - Cal
Oh yeah, so with your pigs you were just talking about those gilts farrowing. You've got them in an area. You're going to move them. Is the goal there that you're going to plant more forages in there so that you can hopefully open it up and get more grazing for your cattle, or do you?

0:35:40 - Angus
have a different goal with that, absolutely so. We've had pigs on the farm for six years I think Six or seven years, I'm not quite sure and they were always in an open area where they would graze, and we actually eventually took the irrigation out, and so the cattle would only be able to graze there twice a year with winter. However the pigs are, I don't know how to.

I didn't even know english my english is beyond me but they are ultimately disrespectful of any human plans that you have, especially that they are yes yeah, so what we've now done is we have fenced off a huge 12 hectare block in an abandoned plum orchard where where we've fenced it with barbed wire enough that the pigs can't actually get out of that area. So the electric fences. Now, if they break the electric fence, we don't really mind because they are contained within a bigger area. So our goal with them is to revitalize that plum orchard.

0:36:51 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:36:51 - Angus
You know they say, pigs have co-evolved, as with the trees, like forest animals. So this most foresty area we have on the farm. So the first thing is we're the only guys in South Africa raising pigs outdoors. Oh yes, we're also the only guys who are curing them without adding nitrites, nitrates and phosphates. It's becoming more common in the US.

0:37:16 - Cal
Are you able to process them on your land? There you have to take them.

0:37:21 - Angus
I have a butchery on my farm. I did process them there for about three years and fortunately I've outsourced that production to a huge factory in Cape Town. And it's actually one of the things that's similarly happened with my wine. I've collaborated with a much bigger company. And it's been a real benefit that I've got. You know, this sort of little guy is working with the big guy, so it's not the little guy being crushed by the big guy. It's the best of both worlds.

Oh yeah, From these collaborations both on the cured meat and on the wine. Oh, very good, so they. I mean, we were just lucky that they were prepared to do this for us and so they could contract make it for us. We're the only stuff in their factory without the nitrites, nitrates and phosphates, but it's a business that's kind of going. It goes okay. South Africa is quite a small market. It's not hugely appreciative of this kind of thing. I am looking into export for this product because I want to find a bigger market that's more appreciative of it.

0:38:27 - Cal
Oh yeah, and are you marketing locally there to Cape Town? How far away from Cape Town are you?

0:38:34 - Angus
Sure, so we are about half an hour from Cape Town. We okay, we do deliveries three days a week into Cape Town and then the other two days elsewhere. Our cured meat, this pork I was talking about it, goes to a national retailer so that we take to their big distribution center and then they ship it around the country, which is very handy. And then we do have a client up in Johannesburg who we send all our stuff to. In fact, we use a freight company that specializes in refrigerated transport and they broke the gate going into my butchery on Tuesday. Oh no, so now I've said to them listen, hold on, You're charging us, but for a change we're going to charge you.

0:39:26 - Cal
You were right, yeah, Well, let's jump back just a little bit. Angus. Let's talk about your breeds of animals. You're running there, so let's start with your cattle. What kind of cattle are you running? And you know, with a name like Angus, you might think you're running Angus cattle.

0:39:48 - Angus
Listen, it's a joke that, unfortunately, I'll never get tired of that. My father named me after cattle breed, although he claims he didn't name me after cattle. Oh yes, it's amazing that the Angus Breed Society society and hats off to them oh, they've done a wonderful job a wonderful job of fooling the world into thinking there's something special about angus beef.

Yes, it's absolute nonsense. Beef is entirely dependent on what it's eaten. I mean, I've done these trials. I had eight breeds of oxen, raised them all same, diet blind, tasted them to all the chefs. No one can tell you any difference. Obviously the breed societies are desperate to tell you a difference. Oh yeah, I mean the most.

Some of the most fanatical people in the world are people committed to their cattle breed. So I mean again, I can't talk for the anguses in america because I'm never found in america. And and there's obviously huge differences within breeds. Oh, there are, yes, but most of the Anguses here are quite thin and small. Oh, yes, more framed and skinny and I prefer a bit more meat. I'm in a very fortunate position that I've got this amazing grazing all year round, so I can afford slightly larger framed animals. So for quite a few years I was just doing pure limousine cows, limousine cattle. Then I crossed them with a red Angus actually Very nice cross and this year I've crossed them with a Bonsmara bull. So Bonsmara is a you could call it a hybrid breed, but I mean it's been around since the 40s and 50s now. So it's quite well established. And Dr Bonsma, I think, modeled the Bonsmara of what Tom Lasseter was doing with the Beefmaster.

Oh yeah, and so what we do is we have a closed bullying season. We give them three cycles in which to conceive, so 63 days, and, yeah, we do pregnancy tests and if they're not pregnant then we'll call them. You know, there's usually one this year, two cows that weren't pregnant, and and, and then they're, and, and the rest are fine, and, and. Then we did an experiment the year before with a Simmentaler bull and the Simmentaler bull on the limousine cows. Those calves are just too big, they were just enormous.

0:42:08 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:42:10 - Angus
So for two of them we lost a calf with birthing problems, which is very sad. But I've got, literally two days ago, I've got the first calf on the ground of the season and they're beautiful, those little Bonsamara calves. They'll be fine. But what I like about the Bonsamara is there's a lot of Boss Indicus in it. And the limousine is obviously the limousine and the red Angus is Boss Taurus. So if you can get that, Boss Taurus, Boss Indicus, cross it's wonderful.

I have to say I was in the states two years ago, two and a half years ago, and I spent two weeks driving around rural Alabama and rural Tennessee just going trying to find some regenerative farms, and I was. I ended up on on a couple of farms where they were really involved with the south pole. Oh yes, my gosh, what an animal Hell. I was impressed.

0:43:01 - Cal
I've been impressed with them as well. Damn it. In fact, that's the bulls I'm running right now. Are South Pole bulls?

0:43:07 - Angus
Wonderful, wonderful, there's not a single South Pole in South Africa.

0:43:12 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:43:13 - Angus
Who knows, One day I might be able to actually bring some embryos in or some semen in. I'd love to see them here. They were just, they were magnificent, and the thought that this Teddy Gentry I think it was and the money was proper.

0:43:28 - Cal
Oh yeah. Well, I have to admit this, when I first heard of South Pole's, I actually when I thought, well, teddy Gentry from the band Alabama made it it. I'm like I'm not so sure I'm interested in that to be honest um, and then up on more research and actually seeing them and stuff. I've been very impressed. And then I heard teddy gentry talk at one of the field days they had and he spent a lot of time researching what he wanted for his environment and then spent the money to breed towards that that took.

Yes, if he wasn't a famous singer he might have got some of that done, but being that gave him the ability, financially, time wise, to be able to do it, which is amazing. I've been pretty impressed too.

0:44:22 - Angus
So how long have you had South Pole bulls?

0:44:25 - Cal
This will be, I think, three years. And are you happy with the offspring? I am very happy with them. We've got two herds here. We have my dad's herd, we have my herd. With my herd I'm breeding just to south post and I'm going completely that direction. I'm all in on it. Now I've got some corriente cows, I also have some south pole cows, but I'm working that way with dad's herd.

It's a limousine based herd that we've crossed up with a few different breeds and we're liking the crosses. We we have not got any. I guess the heifers we just weaned will be half South Poe some of them. We use multiple bulls and we've used multiple breeds on his herd, so we haven't got any cows in production in his herd that are half South Poe. But for my herd I am just so impressed with them. I'm impressed with the half South Pole, half Corriente. They just really make a nice functional calf. Then you breed them back to that South Pole. You get a really nice calf that you would think was full blood South Pole. So I've been really impressed with them, just the way they can keep weight on, even in dry weather, rougher weather. They just handle it so well. My next step and I mentioned this earlier, we're a price getter rather than a setter.

But, the goal is to start finishing them out when I have enough and work towards that part.

0:45:59 - Angus
We're probably a year off from that right now but, but, but your cull cows or the heifers that don't fall pregnant, surely that's a perfect animal to take to the butcher? And you know, you know. Do you know how I started in the meat business before I had my own butchery? I I would my cull cows and whatever I'd take to the have them slaughtered, take them to butchery and say mince the entire thing from the nose to the tail.

0:46:27 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:46:28 - Angus
And mince, everything put it all together and then I would sell little rolls of beef mince. That was literally it. I think now, with hindsight, it was a bit stupid. You should take out the 10% of the steaks, because that's where the high value is, and then mince the rest, but literally just mince the rest, that's actually my thoughts on my first set that I will have to slaughter or to process is it'll be my heifers that didn't breed?

that beef is amazing, it's delicious and they're fat. So again, literally, that beef is amazing, yeah, it's delicious and they're fat. So again, take literally. What we do is we basically take the steaks out. They kind of sell themselves. The four-quarter ground beef we turn into burgers, and the hindquarter ground beef we turn into just ground beef. Oh yeah, that's it.

The burgers from the four-quarter are delicious, and then the ground beef. Oh yeah, that's it. The burgers from the forequarter are delicious, and then the ground beef from the hindquarter. And then your other challenge, of course, is that 25% of your carcass well, again, it's breed dependent. You know, between 20 and 30% of your carcass is bones. Now we again copied the Americans, but we've had a bone broth business now for quite a few years and that's going really well, oh yes. So yeah, kyle, I mean, you guys already know all that stuff, but it'd be quite cool to just start your own brand with ground beef.

0:47:53 - Cal
Yeah, which I think is a great idea, and you know, as we work towards that. Yeah, I'm not really as we work towards that, we're working towards that. Your question around breeding yeah.

0:48:07 - Angus
I like to touch on my chicken and pig breeds. But before I do that, let's just talk something about the beef thing.

0:48:13 - Cal
Yes.

0:48:14 - Angus
Have you heard of a guy called Dan Kittredge, the Bionutrient Association? I have not Dan Kittredge and it's called the Bionutrient Association. Wonderful, wonderful man. He is about six months away, maybe 10 months away, from having a handheld meter that's spectroscopy based, that will tell you the omega six and three ratio of meat. Oh, oh yes, cal, just understand what that's going to do for the grass-fed beef market.

Because, all corn-fed beef is. The omega-6 ratio is super high on the omega-6 side. As soon as you drop the corn and you introduce multi-species pastures, it literally inverts and so you have a very, very low omega-623 ratio.

And that is it's my belief that we are moving into a world where the consumer is going to be able to measure for nutrient density oh yes yes, and dan's the first guy first step towards doing that, and and as soon as we've done that, then, then, then, the, then the feedlots have got problems because people are going to go. I just want to grass-fed and grass-fed, yeah.

0:49:32 - Cal
Well, I think it. It has potential even help on on grass-fed, because I've got a friend that they're like we tried grass-fed once, we won't try it again. I'm like let me change your mind. I'll be there soon and I will change your mind.

0:49:49 - Angus
Amen Cal, those heifers of yours will change their minds.

0:49:52 - Cal
Oh yeah, so jump back on the breeds on cattle before you get to the other species. Your genetics are they predominantly South African genetics, or have you all imported genetics from Europe or North America?

0:50:09 - Angus
So the limousines would obviously have come from France.

0:50:12 - Cal
Well, yeah, they had to come from somewhere else to get there.

0:50:16 - Angus
I did bring in some limousine seamen from the UK at one stage.

Oh yeah, but I was a member of the limousine society but I stopped that. I just I I just don't have well, I don't have the time or the desire or the money to build. That's a, that's a multi, multi year dedication to eventually setting, setting those pools. So I mean, I've still got that semen. I'm sure it's quite valuable. The Bonsmara genetics Bonsmara was a breed created in South Africa from lots of different breeds. Yeah, so my philosophy is I bring a bull in a different bull every time. I keep him for three years because I only put to you. I only put the heifers when they chew to the bull, I don't I don't buy the.

I don't buy the. Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed story, oh yeah, whereas a lot of people do that, they, they, they put them in at nine, ten months and they're carving, you know, before they two the first time. Oh yeah, but then what they don't tell you is how much they struggle to get them to fall pregnant the second time. So we've got the closed bullying season for the cattle, we've got the the. We wait until they are two, two years old before we put the bull in with them the first time. And yeah, and, and, and, and, and. It's just we, we're very strict about the rotation. Oh yeah, twice a day, every day, six weeks before they come back the same place have you used that for a number of years, are you?

really liking that. I've only used it once oh yeah and what I've seen so far from the calves. I mean, listen, the one calf is five days old and the other is two days old. Oh, yeah, so it's very early to say, but their father is a magnificent bull.

0:52:12 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:52:14 - Angus
And I really think a Bonsmara limousine cross is going to be fantastic. Oh yeah, you know, Bonsmara was brilliant in the Bonsmara. Oh yeah, and the Bostorus bos indicus.

0:52:28 - Cal
Look, I tell you red Angus limousine cross.

0:52:31 - Angus
Oh, I can see that being a really nice cross and what I like about the red Angus limousine cross. Unfortunately, no animal, no carcass that I've seen has the conformation of a limousine. I mean, on a butcher's hook, a limousine carcass is just amazing, but Cal, it takes years to get them fat enough.

0:52:49 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:52:50 - Angus
It really takes a very, very long time. So since we've added the red Angus genetics, the carcasses aren't quite as magnificent, but those animals get fatter much quicker. Oh, you can get them finished earlier. Much earlier. So that's the one. The other limousine cross which people have experimented with is a Brahmin.

0:53:13 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:53:13 - Angus
Specifically the Mansu Brahmins. Those are very good. The other cross breed which is really popular here, which does amazingly, is what they call the Simbra, which is Cal, yeah, but but it's those f1 crosses that do really well, you know. So it's the brahman limousine. I I at one stage I was about to buy a sussex bull. I don't know if the sussex is a breed that's significant where you guys are it's not significant here.

0:53:44 - Cal
I've actually tried to find some in the U S and I've not had any luck yet, because I think it looks very interesting, but I see they're popular in some other countries.

0:53:55 - Angus
Yeah, so I mean I've, I've gone from being hugely limousine pro to being limousine and something else pro, oh yeah. But there'll come a day, I hope, where I am less busy and I can give the South Pole a good look. Oh yeah, such a lovely breed.

0:54:18 - Cal
Yeah, I think they're doing some good things there. Okay, let's jump over to your chickens and pigs before we wrap this up.

0:54:27 - Angus
Okay cool, Sorry, man Like you, I just love talking. We can keep going.

0:54:30 - Cal
Oh yeah, no, I'm enjoying it. I have a clock. I watch.

0:54:35 - Angus
Okay cool, because I haven't even noticed what the time is. The chickens we specifically choose white chickens because of the heat stress. So the brown birds get much hotter. We have two breeds of hens, one lay white eggs, the other lay brown eggs, so they're called amblings and leghorns. But we have farm. So one of the things Cal to the point of marketing is we do farm tours all the time. I mean, my record is, I think, four in one day.

So people will come and because we're so close to cape town, people come and visit us all the time oh yeah, and, and I guess about seven out of ten times when people ask us, why have you got white eggs and brown eggs? And I say to them, up until 11 o'clock in the morning she lays a brown egg and then after that she lays a white egg, and more than half the people believe me. Oh, I imagine. So, yes, yeah, so we choose those for the heat stress. And then the pigs we're actually using Duroc boars, which are brown boars. Oh, okay, because the flip works for them.

They handle the heat better than the white pigs oh yes yeah, and, and I mean listen, the duroc pros will tell you the marbling in a duroc pig is better. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know my theory the pigs again is I want a pig that is epigenetically adapted to my farm. So I'm now in my third breeding cycle, because I always just used to buy in wiener pigs.

0:56:11 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:56:12 - Angus
But you know I could talk at length about how we ended up breeding. It was a teenage pregnancies that caused a big problem for us and anyway. So we we've now really focused on on trying to get our pigs epigenetically adapted to the farm. So again with the boars, my philosophy is going to be that I'll keep them for three breeding cycles or, however, because pigs are quicker, so it might be four or five, but I don't want them covering their daughters and that's when I'll bring in new genetics.

Right yeah, but listen, outdoor pig farming is an engineering challenge. That's it. Oh yeah, those things are destructive, mamma mia. The other thing that's really fortunate for us is that in South Africa, you're allowed to feed food waste to pigs. Oh, okay, and the result is that our pigs get this incredible diet of expired fruit and veg, expired ice cream, porridges that didn't work properly. You know just lots of different things, which is fantastic.

0:57:12 - Cal
Oh yeah yeah, it gives you a little bit more flexibility there. Now, one thing just real short. You're selling all that locally. Have you found the demand to be? I know you have the three species and you had sheep and you changed that and you're not doing broilers anymore. Are your customers asking for some of that? Or are the three species you have, with the eggs and then the pork and beef, really meeting your consumers needs?

0:57:44 - Angus
Yeah, well, the eggs not. So we were producing five and a half thousand eggs a day. Bird flu came along. The effect of bird flu was that we could not buy replacement hens. Oh yes, and then for a whole year we've been at two and a half thousand eggs a day. Now, a month ago, we managed to get some replacement Hence our numbers are slowly picking up again.

0:58:09 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:58:09 - Angus
We touch wood and we're very grateful we're selling out of all our eggs so we could have a bigger egg business.

Oh yes, yeah, beef. We deliberately pulled our horns back because we want to just, instead of buying in the other guys making the money, I want to breed my own and grow them by myself. So the beef business I've already shrunk down. There's a. There's a. There's a quite a fancy hotel that's opened, that's that's on the estate actually being renovated at the moment, but that hotel we are going to exclusively supply them. So our beef is ready for ultra-local consumption. The cured meat is a national thing and the wine is my first export product, so the wine is international. Oh yeah.

0:58:57 - Cal
Do you graze your vineyard at all?

0:58:59 - Angus
Yes, once a year. Super high density with the cattle, oh yeah. And the reason for that is we want them to graze the cover crop, smash it completely. We obviously want their manure and urine as a fertilizer, oh yeah. And because we farm our vineyards organically and biodynamically, we don't use herbicides to kill the weeds. Sorry the growth, but we want as much biomass as possible and the enzyme in a herbivore spit that stimulates plant growth. We want that in the plant Because the more biomass we can generate in winter and in spring, when the hot summers come, that biomass covers the soil and keeps it cool.

0:59:41 - Cal
Oh yeah, yeah, Very good, angus. It's time we transition. We do our famous four, sponsored by Ken Cove Farm Fence. Ken Cove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass Podcast and grazers everywhere At Ken Cove Farm Fence they believe there's true value within the community of grazers and land stewards. The results that follow, proper management and monitoring, can change the very world around us. That's why Ken Cove is dedicated to providing an ever-expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant.

Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres, ken Cove has everything you need to do it well, from reels to tumblewills, polytwine to electric nets, water valves to water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Ken Cove. They carry brands like Speedrite, o'briens, kiwi Tech, strainrite, jobe and more. Ken Cove is proud to be part of your regent journey. Call them today or visit KenCovecom, and be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Ken Cove YouTube channel at Ken Cove Farm Fans for helpful how-to videos and new product releases. And same four questions we ask of all of our guests. Our first question what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource? Stockman Grass Farmer Excellent resource. I don't even know I think back to when I started getting that and I don't even know where I came across it but it's a tremendous resource and the great thing is they deliver it to me each month.

1:01:25 - Angus
Well, mine's also delivered, but via email.

1:01:28 - Cal
Oh well, okay, so I splurge, I have the email version or the digital version and the paper version.

1:01:37 - Angus
I used to get the paper version. It's fantastic feeding it in my hands.

1:01:40 - Cal
Well, that's the thing. I think I love technology. I think I would enjoy consuming the digital version more. I've got an e-ink tablet that I read on. I think, oh, that's great, but that's not what I do. I end up finding I consume the paper version. That's the one that I always have next to me. It's one I can leaf through at any time and I just I read more when I have the paper version and I can see.

1:02:12 - Angus
Also. The other thing is the way stockman grass farm has been put out by. There's an article that starts and then it goes to this page. Oh yeah, and you?

gotta jump yes that in a paper version is much easier than in the digital version okay it is yeah so, so to read the digital version, you've actually got to say, okay, I'm now committing to sitting and reading this, you're absolutely right. So I think, when, when my subscription comes up for renewal, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the, the the paper version. Oh yeah, yeah, we just have issues with our post is rather unreliable down here.

1:02:48 - Cal
Oh yeah, actually I'm looking here I have the renewal envelope. I just got from them that, oh right, here I have to renew mine that's wonderful our second question what is your favorite tool for the farm? Solar-powered electric fence. Oh yes, I love the capability of having a solar-powered energizer and the portability it gives me the ability to run electric fences on land I don't have power to, which is so nice. Our third question what would you tell someone just getting started on their regenerative?

1:03:28 - Angus
journey, avoid paying school fees. Try and limit yourself to doing one thing. That's been my biggest mistake. I've just done too many things. Limit yourself literally to doing one thing. First you must understand the production systems and then you have to go into marketing. So you got to design a very good logo, thanks to ty lopez. You got to know what's the blunt reward. You got to really bring people along in your story and even if you're starting, just just start an Instagram page and take photographs and tell people what's going on. People just love it.

They come along on the journey. You've got to bring people along on your journey with you. Don't put yourself under pressure that, oh, I've got to have all of these things in place. You're starting man. Everybody wants to see someone starting.

1:04:23 - Cal
Right, yeah, there's a lot you said there, just putting it out there. And I'll be honest, that's a struggle for me because I go through and I'll look at the pictures I've taken. I'm like, oh, none of those look good, None of those. I'm worried about everything. You just put it out there. It's kind of like what I did with the podcast. I need to apply to the farm a little bit more, but the podcast I knew I didn't know what I was doing, but it didn't matter, I was going to start, because that's the way you learn. That's kind of the same way with putting your farm out there and getting it out to the public. Just share what you have. Yeah, yeah.

1:05:04 - Angus
And lastly, angus, where can others find out more about you? Yeah, I'm most active on Instagram, pharmaangusspir. I've got a website, it's pharmaanguscoza. You can email me through that website. My Instagram is automatically linked to Facebook, although I can tell you that I've never been on Facebook. I just know it's it's it's linked to Facebook. I've also just started a little TikTok channel and a YouTube shorts channel. Obviously we the the best way is to come visit us, I realize it's a long way from Oklahoma yeah, it is, I'd love to come visit us.

I realize it's a long way from Oklahoma. Yeah it is. I'd love to come visit. We are very and it's cheap for you, guys, you can't believe how far the dollar will take you in Africa.

1:05:53 - Cal
Oh yes, Very, very far. You know that'll have to be on my to-do list. My wife has this little problem with vacations. If I say we're going on a vacation and then I somehow include looking at a farm or animals, she's like that's not a vacation. Yeah, it is, it's still a vacation. We just took a little bit of time for the business so we can count some of those expenses. Yes, yes. Well, angus, I really enjoyed talking to you today and appreciate you coming on.

1:06:28 - Angus
Yeah, man, the pleasure has been all mine, and strength to your arm. I look forward to reading more about what you guys are doing, especially your direct consumer beef.

1:06:41 - Cal
Well, thank you Appreciate that.

1:06:43 - Angus
All the best, stay well.

1:06:46 - Cal
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