Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

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0:00:01 - Cal
Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast Episode 134.

0:00:06 - Anthony
Be economical. If you came in, even if you had $50,000 to dump on a startup, don't blow it.

0:00:15 - Cal
You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, cal Hartage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating cost. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenitive Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy to follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg slash grazing. It's n-o-b-l-e dot org. Forward slash grazing.

On today's show we have Anthony Horvath from Michigan on to share about his farm and what he's doing. We talk about starting at ground zero and building slowly. Anthony and his wife both work full-time off the farm and the farm is fairly small but getting started good. We talk about his approach. We talk about him getting started and utilizing baling hay as a way to get started and expand what he's able to do, and we talk about difficulties being able to graze more land there. It's a good episode, a little bit different perspective. Someone's working full time off the farm Whereas the last few episodes episodes we've had some larger operations on. So really excited to offer a different perspective today and I really appreciate Anthony coming on and sharing For 10 seconds about my farm. I last week mentioned calving had started for my dad's herd and we jumped off to a great start with four calves and then they're just trickling in now. So I think we're up to eight calves. When we have four the first day we think, oh boy, we're going to have a slew. But no, we're just one at a time. So it's going slow right now. But it should pick up 10 seconds about the podcast If you haven't left us a review.

We always appreciate reviews and, as one of my favorite podcasts says, we love five-star reviews and positive comments and to be honest, I do. Yeah, let's share a review. This one says great podcast and great show for grazers. I am in southeast us but can use the ideas for my grazing purposes here. Thank you, j skin 2610. We appreciate you leaving a review for us and they do highlight an issue we've had this summer. I feel like we've had more northern grazers, more canadian grazers on and we haven't had too many from the southeast or too many other places. So we need to work on that. If you're from the southeast, I want to share. In fact, if you're from anywhere in the world and you want to share about your operation, go to grazinggrasscom and click on Be Our Guest and fill out that form. I will get it and I'll be in Again. J Skin, thank you for leaving us that review and let's talk to Anthony. Anthony, we want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass podcast. We're excited you're here today. Thanks for having me. Cal Anthony to get started.

0:04:26 - Anthony
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation? So our operation is pretty limited. On our home front we're operating on less than 10 acres. That includes the neighbor's acre and a half next door. Oh yes, we have seven cattle, two of them are calves, three are feeders. That'll be finished out here in the next two months and we plan to have them finished out by the time grass goes dormant. Oh yeah, being in being in Southwest Michigan could be September or it could be February. Oh yeah, the last couple of years. Last year I had grass until probably January.

0:05:09 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:05:10 - Anthony
Sometimes we'll get a snow in October. Sometimes we don't have any snow until January or February at times. Oh yeah, we're pretty close to Lake Michigan so it's very hit or miss on our weather Now.

0:05:31 - Cal
being close to the Great Lakes up there and myself being in Oklahoma, I know very little about it, but I know occasionally on the national maps they'll say lake effect snow. Do you get hit with lake effect snow?

0:05:40 - Anthony
Oh, that's the thing about lake effect it's either hit or miss. That's the thing about lake effect it's either hit or miss. Oh yeah, we are in the area that we get hit or we don't. There being we're on the indiana michigan state line, close to lake michigan, so if the wind comes directly out of the west, we might get hit with the lake effect. Oh yes, if it comes slightly out of the south, we might miss it because it doesn't come across the lake.

Now if it comes out of the northwest, then we can expect feeder snow overnight.

0:06:16 - Cal
Oh, wow, interesting, yeah, interesting. I'm just a few miles from Oolagaw Lake. I'm sure you haven't heard of it, but I never have to worry about like lake effects.

0:06:27 - Anthony
No, yeah so like if we were an hour north, like grand rapids, michigan. Yes, they're probably more consistent whether they get it or not, because whether they can't avoid the lake, oh yeah the wind streams and whatnot coming across.

0:06:43 - Cal
Oh, interesting. So, Anthony, we're on here. Ag Podcast. Why did you decide to get into ag?

0:06:54 - Anthony
Well, if you would have asked me that five years ago, I would have told you I would never thought I was doing today what I am.

Oh yes, four years ago we started a hay operation, just bailing some of our own stuff, cut some jobs, rented ground, and we had one cow, one cow donkey, and we were buying our hay and we had some issues with that Shady people hard to get a hold of some lesser quality stuff. People slide stuff in and we happened to get a bad bale of hay which we were buying round bales oh yeah. And our donkey became sick oh yeah. And our donkey became sick oh no. And we didn't lose him at least not at that point and I thought I'm tired of chasing hay around and maybe I just start making my own. So we just had one feeder cow for the house and maybe sell a little bit of extra to some friends or whatnot. And then at that point we decided we would start buying hay equipment in probably march of 2020 and we did a few custom jobs, mostly on split, and it started rolling from there.

0:08:25 - Cal
I want to stop you for just a second. Okay, if you listen to the podcast very long. One of my happiest days in my life was when we sold the haying equipment. Now, now when I say that, but you can make my good day go bad by me having to work on some equipment. That's not where I fall, but you have a hidden advantage with the equipment.

0:08:49 - Anthony
Yes, so by trade, I am a diesel technician, with ag as a secondary in my education.

Oh yeah, and I like wrenching on stuff, I like being able to diagnose and find the problem and fix things. So when it came to the hay equipment, we just bought the cheapest that we could afford and started rebuilding from there. But I've gotten to a point to where I know my equipment well enough and I know that when hay's not growing I should probably work on it. Oh yeah, I believe too many people run into issues where once hay season's done, they're done until the next hay season and then they start going and then they don't have time to make some maintenance or minor repairs that could be more catastrophic, oh yeah, or minor repairs that could be more catastrophic.

0:09:45 - Cal
Oh yeah, I'm raising my hand, anthony, because when we hayed we baled hay. We did it out of necessity because of the dairy we needed so much hay for it. And when that haying season ended, we parked the equipment and we looked at it the following spring and, in a panic, started fixing stuff. Now we we hire someone to come bail hay for us. Now, yeah, he's actually a second cousin, but he, when he finishes haying season, his winner is going through fixing, working on all his tractors and stuff. That's what he enjoys doing and so that's his plan.

And he I I'm assuming he's done like you he's bought some equipment and worked on it and got it um working for him, because he'll pull in with tons of equipment and he may come over here with three mowers or he may be down one. He's like well, one messed up, I'll get it in winter and fix it. So he's in great shape on equipment, but he spends winter working on all that equipment. So you bring up a great point that I have to say we were not good about yeah, and I, during college, I did work at a derrick barn.

0:10:58 - Anthony
Oh yes, even at that point I would have never thought I was going to start buying animals and hay equipment. It was just a college job and that was that.

0:11:12 - Cal
Were you raised around animals.

0:11:15 - Anthony
Well, my background has zero animals in the history, to the point we were lucky to have a dog grower. I did. I wanted nothing to dog grower. Oh yeah, I did. It had nothing to do with animals, oh yes.

0:11:28 - Cal
But yet when you went to college, you decided to go get a job on a dairy.

0:11:34 - Anthony
So the school I went to, which was University of Northwestern Ohio down in Lima, they had like job postings that people in the community would say, hey, you got some college kids, I have a job that would work around their schedule or whatnot. Oh yeah, I was just like, ah, I'll check this out. And they were pretty flexible. We only went to school Monday, Tuesday, wednesday and Thursday, oh yeah. And then we had Friday and the weekend off and the dairy was like well, we were milking 80 to 100 head and he really just needed some relief.

Oh yeah, so to have somebody there to help milk and he could pick up on other things, go out and get other things rolling while somebody was managing the parlor, bringing cows in and out, whatnot. So having help four or five days a week was good for him. And then he had his weekends, and one thing I never got roped into was helping with hay. So, yes, that's one thing I've thought about is like I he never asked me to come stack wagons, nothing but and and then here you are buying hay and equipment and deciding you're going to do your own, yeah, yeah.

0:12:49 - Cal
So why did you mention a little bit you'd got some hay and your donkey had gotten sick? Was there any other reason? You thought, hey, let's thought, hey, yeah. Ironically thought, hey, let's go get the equipment to make hay it was just so.

0:13:07 - Anthony
We had our own and there's not enough hay makers in our area. Oh yeah, so I started talking about buying some hay equipment. I had a buddy that was like hey, I know some people are looking for somebody to cut and bale, I can hook you up with them whatever. Oh yeah, and I found out some of those were just on off, whatnot?

Oh yes, yeah because he had his own hay equipment but didn't want to do the hay for him. But from there we just started picking up ground and I think I got up to 30 or 40 acres my first year, oh yeah. And then the second year we started looking for a lot more. But at that point we started buying more animals because we're like we have the hay, we might as well do some more animals. And at that point we had processed our cow and people were like, hey, we'll buy some from you, like we want to buy local. So we got rolling with, maybe we'll buy two to butcher out. And then we got the hay, then we got more cows, then we got more hay and this year and last season first cutting I I've done around a hundred acres, oh yeah. And that kind of says a lot for our area. We don't have big hay fields. Oh yes, I would say a big hay job in our area. My biggest job is 15 acres.

0:14:42 - Cal
Oh yeah, so so small acreage there. Yeah yeah, biggest job is 15 acres.

0:14:46 - Anthony
Oh yeah, so so small acreage there. Yeah, yeah, there are some bigger hay fields that mostly like a family farm or something, might have like a 30 acre field or something yeah, well, not a lot of it, everybody.

It's just easier to go to row crop. A lot of people that are renting out they don't want people there three, four times a year. They get the right at the beginning of the year. Somebody comes and plants something, then they harvest it and oh yeah, I find some people find that easier and a simpler process now, in addition to the farm and your hay, you know, are you working off the farm as well I am still working full-time.

We strive for 40 hours. Oh yeah, my company owner would greatly complain that I don't quite get 40 hours every week.

0:15:34 - Cal
So well, just so, when you say 100 acres, even though you're doing a smaller acreage, for someone who's baling hay in my area, they'd say that's not, that's hardly a drop in the bucket, but the thing. But you're doing a full-time job in addition to bailing this hay, and then so I think context is important there. Yes, yeah so, because bailing hay is not a quick, an easy dollar.

0:16:02 - Anthony
Right, so I saved my vacation time. Oh yes, and the way it goes, I've rewrote company policy three times in four and a half years I've been there. So I would save my vacation time and when it came to making hay, I would take off at lunch, put a half day vacation in. Oh yeah, you can't do anything first thing in the morning unless you're moving equipment, and we did that for about two years. Then we had a sit down meeting at work and they said we're no longer doing half days, we can no longer take half half vacation days. It's gotta be a full day. And I'm like well, that's a disadvantage to you, because when I gotta make hay, I gotta make hay.

Yeah, so I more so miss out the hours on the week than push the hay off. Because, southwest michigan, you got a window to do hay, you got to make it. Oh yeah, you miss your window. You could be pushed back a month, easy, and we had that this year. Our first cutting was, I would say, maybe a couple weeks behind, but between first and second cutting we got pushed back an extra month. Oh yeah, just because we only had like two or three dry days in a row and humidity rolls in, you got to hold off. Oh yeah, just because we only had like two or three dry days in a row and humidity rolls in, you got to hold off.

0:17:29 - Cal
Oh yeah, I assume it's very similar to trying to bail in May or mid-May year. It's really tough to get anything wrapped up the humidity getting enough warm days, enough sunlight together. Now you hit early to mid-June. That all changes for us, but you're in a little bit different environment.

0:17:50 - Anthony
Yeah. So if we get into June, I would say first cutting, due to the volume, can be the hardest one to dry, oh yeah. But if we get into June doing first cutting, we could almost turn it in a day. Oh yeah, just because the sun, the breeze, I've made dry hay and I've baled at 36 hours and it was too dry, oh yeah, round baler, it was just blowing apart. But also, when you get into June, you're also already have a half dead crop and, yeah, matured out Already half dry standing up.

0:18:30 - Cal
Now, anthony, you mentioned that you started bailing this hay and you had more hay, so you all bought more animals. Have you thought about grazing those hay pastures you have?

0:18:41 - Anthony
Well, that is one of my biggest challenges. In the first two years I was making hay, I would go out to a field. I'm like man, this wasn't worth my time. Oh yeah, I usually make four by five round bales. First cutting they're eight to 900 pounds. Second cutting they're easily a thousand pounds. Yeah, when you go out and do a 10 or 15 acre field on second cutting and you only bring home 10 bales, you look at your cost and go, wow, my field's gone. And so that's why I came across the whole regenerative ag approach on things, approach on things and I really try to get some of my landowners on for grazing and I have had zero success, other than my next door neighbor with an acre and a half.

Oh yes, they don't like the idea of fences. Oh yeah, and I'm talking, fence down to the simplest form of my group is good enough, obviously, I have a small group seven cattle, half a dozen sheep and Katahdin hair sheep. Three of them are lambs. They're bonded. I have no problems with sheep getting out. Oh yeah, I can run the whole group on two strands of poly braid with just a t-post in the corner. If I'm doing long runs, say two, three hundred feet, I like to have t-post in the corners, otherwise I can just get away with the step in post. But even that little bit of fence, they still just don't like the idea. And I've got a couple I keep trying to work on because of course they're my weakest output fields and just can't get them onto the idea. We are on Zillow every day. We need to grow. We're at that point where we would like to find 30 to 40 acres at least.

0:21:08 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:21:09 - Anthony
Got some things in the works Nothing substantial. Find 30 to 40 acres at least. Oh yeah, got some things in the works, nothing substantial, but we're trying with our group. Our, our 10 acre home property is probably about seven. Seven of it's forested, oh okay. So we have been working for the last couple of years to do more of a silvopasture approach. Oh yeah, we have about two, two and a half acres at the front of our property. That's just wide open pastures from the past and then we have a valley that goes through the property. It's not that big but it's a significant cut in the ground and through that we've started eliminating.

We have a lot of wild cherry in our area, oh yeah, which I don't know how much you've dealt with those or know about the health side effects of those. But some people say they'll let their cows eat them green. But the issue is when a tree branch breaks off and you get it wilting, that'll kill a cow within a few hours. Oh yes, my neighbor across the road has a bunch of black angus. In springtime they might run a little short on hay or whatnot, but you start getting that green up and the cows start reaching over the fence, and that's not the first time they grabbed a branch, but it's the second or third time they grabbed a branch that it started creating the I believe it's cyanide when, when a cherry tree starts to wilt and that's what kills them.

0:22:44 - Cal
Oh, yeah, that's. That's an interesting issue to have. I don't know of having any wild cherries around here, yeah, so.

0:22:53 - Anthony
I haven't had to deal with it. They're big in our area, black cherry or wild cherry. They get a little real little cherry fruit on it oh yeah, we're spreading them around pretty good. I've my wife has talked about eliminating them off our property, but that would probably be 70% of our trees. Oh, yes, so we cut them back, keep them out of the areas. So our donkey that got sick a couple of years ago, he recovered, we had him. He actually passed away this summer.

We don't know if there's still side effects, because what he got sick from a few years ago was a liver infection, oh okay, and our vet said something bad in the hay. Yeah, yeah, effects, because what he got sick from a few years ago was a liver infection. Oh, okay, and our vet said something bad in the hay. Yeah, you know, could be many issues that could cause it, but most likely something bad in the hay, moldy spot, bed plant, something he passed away this summer. But he was our biggest concern out in the woods Cause he always liked cribbing on the cherry trees.

Oh yeah, never seemed to cause him a problem, but he was always the one that would do it. So we'd rope him off and just a wrap of polybray around him. You know just two or three step-in posts and it kept him off of all of it, oh yeah. Yeah, so the rest of our group doesn't really bother them, so we're a little easier rotating them around, but yeah.

0:24:18 - Cal
So, anthony, you were talking about your animals. How are you doing grazing management with your animals, because you're working with very small acreage for them.

0:24:28 - Anthony
So our grazing management is very flexible which is which is good.

0:24:36 - Cal
Grazing management should be flexible yeah.

0:24:39 - Anthony
So right now my one pasture has came up very strong in what some people call goose grass or wire grass, oh okay, and I have split my group up to offer the better forage to my feeders that are. I have three. That are three cattle that are finishing out in the next two months and then I have three lambs I'm carrying over until early spring.

They'll be about 10 months for butcher, just in time for the holidays. Oh yes, so I'm neglecting my brood. They'll be about 10 months for butcher, just in time for the holidays. Oh yes, so I'm neglecting my brood. They are in that pasture with the goose grass and supplemented with hay. Unfortunately, they're not eating as much of the hay as I'd like because I use a cradle style bale feeder. Oh okay, and it works really good for bale grazing. So that pasture will probably end up getting tilled and reseeded just because it's gone through some leveling with the removal of tree stumps and whatnot. And then I'm running my feeder group ahead, and right now they're on my neighbor's pasture next door. I section that down quarter, quarter to half acre at a time and rotate them around, and then, once they've picked through the good stuff, I have a spot down in the valley that I mowed earlier this summer because we have a weed called smartweed.

0:26:20 - Cal
Okay, I'm not familiar with it.

0:26:22 - Anthony
It just grows ridiculously well in wooded areas.

0:26:28 - Cal
Oh, okay.

0:26:30 - Anthony
It's a green plant. It might get knee high but gets these real little pinkish red dots on it that are the seeds, and deer will browse on it a little bit, but nothing really likes it. So I did mow that out and got the grass to perk back up and I've never seen a grass down there. But through mowing it had started to come through and this will be our first time grazing that, as we've gotten rid of some of the cherry trees and whatnot. So we're flexible in terms that, yeah, let's go a little bit longer on this or let's fence off an area over there. I don't mow grass. The only grass I mow is the ditch along the road between the pavement and the fence and right next to the driveway. That's the term of flexibility, where I run polyrope up to one corner of the house and then it comes off the other corner to the pasture.

0:27:34 - Cal
And Anthony, I'm laughing because my dad makes fun of me Earlier this summer my nephew mows my parents' yard. He mows his mom's yard and his yard and then usually and we all share a lawnmower, so he usually just drops it off down here or I have it stored in the barn and he was like, hey, I'm getting that mower. He says do you want me to mow yours? I'm like oh no, I don't want you to mow it.

I'm putting sheep in there, yeah, so so. So I'm that crazy person too, who my wife doesn't mind that I graze as much as I can with animals, yep.

0:28:10 - Anthony
So when I can get three or four days of feed off of the yard around the house and our kids are small enough that they don't need a lot of yards- oh yeah.

So and, honestly, our property. We have a lot of clay. Oh yes, we're either sand or clay. It neither are great. So right now in Michigan we had some rain. Thursday night it was less than a quarter inch of rain. The fall trees that rained before that was probably less than a quarter inch three weeks before. So we're getting into a drought, oh yes. And I haven't even been able to feed my side yard. Oh yeah, because we have the clay. There's so little organic matter that the moisture just doesn't hold. So actually, the pasture closest to our side yard, which is the one I would branch up to the side yard to feed off of, I ran our group on brown bales for probably three weeks to a month. In that pasture I did some round bales, but I found out square bales make a lot more waste in a round bale feeder. Oh yes, so bale grazing that side yard with square bales did really great. So that little bit of rain we got yesterday or thursday night held a lot more moisture than if I would have like.

let them eat it clean, or do round bales in the feeder, because when I do hay, if I have like tree rows that don't get dry, I bail them and then they just come home and they go out to the cows and instead of, okay, they'll hold up, okay, they might make a little mold, I just I set them in a spot and I feed them out and I don't have to worry about giving them to a customer and getting a bad reputation. They just feed my herd instead of a round bale and oh yeah, it does them pretty good, especially when you're on second or third cutting with a good amount of alfalfa in there. Oh yeah, but yeah. So that bale grazing has been a.

It's been bittersweet, it's helped our ground like that, because what I'll actually do is all that will get tilled in. I know a lot of people aren't a fan of rototilling but, being the way our property was before, there were a lot of tree stumps and whatnot that got removed. So we have a bunch of divots and voids and crests in the ground that are, if you are mowing the grass, it's terrible, but it's also terrible driving a tractor across if you're moving bales or something. So we're using the rototiller to level things out and make it easier on the animals. They're not tripping over ridges in the ground and potholes from a tree stump.

0:31:23 - Cal
I think with that, when we talk about Regenti bag and we talk about not disturbing the soil, not using chemicals, not using fertilizer, rotating our animals, that's all a goal for us. I think it's a goal for you, it's a goal for me. But to get there sometimes we have to use some of those tools that's in our toolbox, such as rototilling that. So you're leveling some areas out and there's different ways to do it, but that's the tool you have to do it. So we have to be conscious of what our context is and we can look at down the road. This is where we want to be, but just because we're not there today does not mean it's bad. It just means it's going to slow our progress a little bit. Maybe, if we're doing some things, that's not best for the soil, but we know where we're going. So it's a tool for you to use. Yeah, yep.

0:32:17 - Anthony
Yeah, and as much as I don't like the idea of it, I'm not hard set in any certain way. Oh yeah, I understand. I've seen where tillage does kill the soil. That's part of the reason why our ground is so terrible. Around us. Everybody tells us we still have farmers that go out. A local small-town farmer. They plow twice a year, they disc, then they got a fertilizer bill. That's just crazy. A farm next door I've been trying to rent the landowner. An old-timer hasn't farmed and I don't know if he's ever farmed it or just always been rented out. But he thinks the farmer's doing such a great job because he put so much fertilizer down. Oh yeah, yeah, that's building the soil. I'm like no, but sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

0:33:10 - Cal
You mentioned earlier. You've talked to some of these landowners about grazing animals and they're not quite there yet. And just, I think the most important thing there is relationships, and those don't happen overnight and, depending on the person, it takes even longer. It may take even longer or a lot longer. So I think, even with your neighbor like that, it's just about building that relationship and continuing down that road till you get that relationship and maybe at some point you're able to do that yeah, yeah, that's what we keep working for push but not shove right.

0:33:46 - Anthony
Try to get there. Well, that that's probably been one of our biggest issues. I would say most of the generational firms in our area. They're ran by people that are getting to that age, to where they've been there for a while. So things are set up and comfortable. Oh, yeah, so there's no reason to change. But for that same reason, things are going to have to change because, I would say, at least two of the three neighboring properties around us are being operated and managed by families that are in their seventies.

0:34:31 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:34:32 - Anthony
So how long can you really do that? Yeah, some people live to be 90, but others don't make it to 50.

0:34:38 - Cal
So they're just rolling with it until the options have to change, yeah, and I think we're seeing that throughout ag that average age is increasing, and wondering about the next journey. I talk about my animals. My operation to my dad is 76 and he's got his own operation, which I provide a fair amount of labor for. And now he's got my nephew helping him now, which has been really nice. In fact, we just started fall calving season with his cows and I've tagged zero of them. My nephew has tagged them, which has been nice. And then my grandpa, off the road still runs cows. Now he runs them with my uncle who is 60. So, but my grandpa's 98. Yeah, so, yeah, that still people going and doing stuff and we're seeing that age. But then the next thought is who's coming up? Who's going to take their places?

0:35:38 - Anthony
Yeah, and I think that's been one of our limitations is we have this older generation still going, but the next generation it really isn't getting a foot in the door.

0:35:50 - Cal
You say that and I think that's a I hate to say issue, that is a concern, and I've heard it other places as well, and I could apply it here and think my dad ought to take a step back, but he enjoys it. So I don't know. I do get that and I do hear that and I do think it's true in a lot of aspects. I don't know what the answer is.

0:36:12 - Anthony
Yeah.

0:36:14 - Cal
It's one of those things.

0:36:15 - Anthony
Unfortunately, I think it comes down to just being an ultimatum of, like we were talking on the hay equipment you just run it until it has to be maintained, yeah. And I know the one family farm in our area the old man I'd say is in his late seventies, somewhere around that age, and even some of the grandsons aren't even getting lead weight in some of the operations and they're just there being able bodies and oh, yeah, yeah.

0:36:48 - Cal
That's a tough thing to work through is releasing that control to the next generation and do stuff or for them to do more things. I talk about my dad and I quite often on the podcast but that's been a struggle for us throughout the years because it's his operation and we're partners on some things. But he's got his thing that he is the operator on or the owner he's not so much he would cringe if I say he's not the operator because he's down here doing stuff yeah, not doing a ton of stuff and he is giving my voice more weight now, but it's taken us decades to get here. It's a tough dance to go through and I think ranching for profit when they talk about families and working on the farm versus working in the farm I think could be a tremendous benefit for a lot of those people I say a lot of those people For a lot of us. I don't want to. It'd be beneficial for any of us, I believe.

0:37:52 - Anthony
Yeah, yeah, I think that is one thing that lacks is just general communication, oh yeah.

0:38:01 - Cal
So I got a question on this non-ag related How's communication at your job? Terrible, okay, so why? I'm saying that I worked in education for over two decades and the common complaint is communication the common, I think. Now I'm going to go out on a limb and say most places the issue is communication. We're either saying stuff and we're not saying what we truly mean, or the communication is just not happening and the people who need to know don't know. And it's not often because people think, oh, I don't want to tell them. They just think, well, they don't need to know that, I just won't burden them with that. But oftentimes they do need to know. So that communication piece I think everyone in the world needs to work on, yep.

0:38:51 - Anthony
Yeah, the chap I work in communication is definitely a big issue. It definitely puts a hitch in the day and a few words can go a long way.

0:39:02 - Cal
Oh yeah, go a step further All of our marriages or relationships with other people. Communication is such a huge factor and would make a big difference. My wife and my communication, I think, is really good at this point. It's taken years for us to figure that out and get there and I'm sure in five years we'll look back and say, oh, we really had a lot of growth to do at that point, but it's a journey. Hey Anthony, rather than continue on this communication tangent, let's talk a little bit about your animals. You mentioned you have hair sheep. You're mainly working with katahdin or katahdin crosses there.

0:39:43 - Anthony
I believe they're katahdin, okay so and their whole, they were cheap, yeah, well that's an important thing and we'll come back to that in just a moment.

0:39:54 - Cal
what kind of cows are you running? Cheap cowsap cows? Well, okay, Anthony.

0:40:00 - Anthony
They weren't bought this year, so that makes them cheaper, doesn't it?

0:40:04 - Cal
Well, anthony let's stop right there, because both of those answers bring us to the overgrazing section sponsored by Redmond. At Redmond, we know that you thrive when your animals do. That's why it's essential to fill the gaps in your herd's nutrition with the minerals that they need. Made by nature, our ancient mineral salt and conditioner clay are the catalyst in optimizing the nutrients your animals get from their forage. Unaltered and unrefined, our minerals have the natural balance and proportion that your animals prefer. This gives your herd the ability to naturally regulate their mineral consumption as they graze. Our minerals won't just help you improve the health of your animals, but will also help you naturally build soil fertility so you can grow more nutrient-dense pasture year after year. Nourish your animals, your soil and your life with Redmond. Learn more at redmondagriculturecom. We're going to talk a little bit about we'll just say cheapness right now, but economical. Economical because cheap has that negative connotation and we really don't want that. Because let's talk about economical in your situation yeah.

0:41:30 - Anthony
So I would define economical as something that you can afford without taking out a loan. It might not be the highest quality but it's reasonable in the aspect that it's healthy in producing. So we're not a big income family. We're both working day jobs and wife's a school teacher. I'm a diesel mechanic. Farming was just a side gig for us and when it came down to buying stock livestock, our cows started with winged bottle babies. It was something we could afford. Raised they were healthy, turned off off the bottle onto grass and grain. Once we get them we put them on just grass. But they're not $5 registered Angus, hereford, south Pole, because that's just not where we're at in our situation. A couple years ago you could pick up bottle babies off the bottle for four or five hundred dollars. This year you're talking a thousand dollars on a wiener yeah, I would guess so as well.

0:42:50 - Cal
I haven't priced those, but I know bottle calves are that five hundred dollar range? Now it's interesting with bottle calves I I saw someone on Facebook and I actually had. I seen it a little bit earlier. They had a twin born and the mom wasn't taking it, so they're like first person here with $250 gets it. I saw it an hour after it was posted and it was gone. I would have drove over there. Of course, it was like 10 minutes from me. I got a bottle baby for 250, but I've seen them. I've seen them as high as like 600. So one thing you mentioned there you're buying weaned calves, weaned bottle babies, rather than the bottle babies themselves. Why are you doing that?

0:43:32 - Anthony
I don't have experience with bottle babies and working a day job having two kids. The time invested to do it right and make sure they're healthy and growing right isn't in our situation right now.

0:43:47 - Cal
I think you are exactly point on there With bottle calves. They take a lot more time than you think Once you get started on them. I used to buy bottle calves dairy calves and I tried to buy them when I was working for school. I'd buy them during spring break, so I had a week off because you got to check them. In my opinion, when you're bringing bottle babies in and you're watching them, make sure they're doing okay, and we always taught them to drink out of a bucket versus a bottle. It would take me hours. So I wanted that time and once I hit two weeks of age, much smoother. But those first two weeks I had to spend a lot of time with them to make sure they were started good and then even at two weeks of age, you still got that twice a day feeding and stuff. So I think experience with it and having time to do it is a great reason to buy bottle babies that have just been weaned yeah, our biggest thing is just being healthy.

0:44:46 - Anthony
So, starting out with our cow and donkey about five years ago, the donkey's been our only death on the farm other than chickens. Chickens or something gets off, they run into something. You'll find one dead and it's not even a high mortality rate at that. You, we might find one, one or two a year that just died or whatnot. We don't rotate like our laying hens, we don't rotate them out when they're two years old or whatnot. We just they're there to disturb the poop and bugs and lay eggs and when they get old. But yeah, the donkey's been our only large livestock death. Even among the um. We've probably done close to 50 hogs in the last year and a half and no sickness there Once we get. We had our bottle babies. Bottle babies, they carry through pretty good.

I've had a vet in for one cow or one calf, heifer. We had no clue what was going on with her. At the point the vet came in she was two years old. I was getting ready to look at doing some breeding and she was probably 36 inches tall oh, yes, 40 at max. And I had a vet come in do a wellness check and she said, nope, everything's healthy, her heart's good. She's a dwarf. Oh, and this was out of a registered here for heard. I bought her in with a group of bottle babies from a buddy and, oh yes, we just thought she was so cute and fuzzy and he was oh yeah.

And so we ended up selling her off as just a mini cow, and that that's something we wanted to keep around. It doesn't serve us much purpose if we can't breed her or eat her, so oh yeah now you mentioned your hogs there.

0:46:47 - Cal
Are you bringing those in as feeders?

0:46:49 - Anthony
yes, we're buying them in as feeders anywhere from 40 to 90 pounds depending on when we get them. I buy those about 10, 10, 15 minutes away from home. We just do a commercial breed. We tried some american guinea hog. They were okay but they were too much maintenance. Oh yeah, because you have to limit their diet. I had to go out, measure out feed twice a day and, yes, they forage. But even restricting their feed they got real fatty and oh yeah, just we found them hard to sell. We moved to just regular commercial breed feeders, whether they're durock or berkshire blue butt, whatever I can get from my local farm about 10-15 minutes away. We find they all do pretty good, as long as I don't get too many gilts in the group. Oh yeah, we had a group that would split 50-50 with gilt and they were significantly behind. Oh yeah, weight-wise, that butcher I want to say we took them all to. The bottles in that group were over 200 hanging where the guilt were around 150 160.

oh yeah, there's a big difference there. Yeah, same age, same letters, same feed. But you can see the difference in a four to six month raise out okay, afford a six-month raise out.

0:48:20 - Cal
You talked about being economical or frugal and making sure in your livestock purchases. How does that apply to the rest of your farm operation?

0:48:29 - Anthony
We do everything. I've scrolled through Facebook Marketplace specific groups. Going through Facebook Marketplace specific groups, I almost laugh when I see a post for somebody hiring somebody to put up a cattle fence. Oh yeah, I couldn't even imagine what it would cost for me to pay somebody to come in and fence in a five-acre pasture, for me to pay somebody to come in and fence in a five acre pasture, like for me that is. Most places businesses whether it's a fence company, a truck shop, a plumbing service they're over a hundred dollars an hour bill out. So I know the time I have into my fencing and I couldn't even fathom the cost of that. So I generally work by myself. Sometimes my dad will come over. He's more of a lawn chair supervisor.

0:49:29 - Cal
Yeah.

0:49:31 - Anthony
But we do everything on our own except for raising piglet. We don't do any farrowing. We find it easier to just buy feeders at the cost of a sow and knowing how to breed them and keep them going.

0:49:47 - Cal
At the time? Yeah, Yep, I think yeah. So when you think about economically, you're buying some undervalued animals that come into your system and can appreciate in value not necessarily a short turnaround, because when you're buying those weaned bottle calves you've got a long turnaround on them. Yeah, You're able to get in there with low costs and you're using time as a way to lower your costs, and then you're using your own labor to do everything. Yeah, In addition to you and your wife both having full-time jobs.

0:50:20 - Anthony
Yeah, yeah, yep, and most people find it crazy that we have seven cows, half a dozen sheep, about 14 hogs right now almost two dozen chickens and then two little children and they'll try to get 40 hours a week and it's busy.

0:50:41 - Cal
Yeah, oh, I'm sure, sure it is. Do you? Is this where you want to be? You're enjoying it and doing this kind of on a small scale, or would you like to grow enough that eventually you could just do this full time?

0:50:59 - Anthony
So, ideologically, we would like to quit my day job, but we also don't want to be huge.

One thing I think, and I understand the economical need for people to put out as much as they can, but we would like to replace our income and supply to our community. We don't want to get to the point to where we're wholesaling just to move stock. We want to be able to reach out to our direct community, sell farm to table, farm to consumer, maybe some local restaurants, but we don't want to. I don't think we want to get to the point where we're moving 100 head of cow every year, oh yeah, or doing 5,000 chickens. It's just something for us to do have our income, live on our farm and make a little impact on our community, Offer what's needed.

0:52:04 - Cal
Yeah, excellent, yeah, anthony. It is time for us to transition and move to our famous four questions, sponsored by Ken Cove Farm Fence. Ken Cove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass Podcast and grazers everywhere. At Ken Cove Farm Fence they believe there is true value within the community of grazers and land stewards. The results that follow, proper management and monitoring, can change the very world around us. That's why Ken Cove is dedicated to providing an ever-expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant.

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0:53:32 - Anthony
So I actually just started a new book. Let me look it up here. So with my full time day job, I found Audible to be very handy. Oh yes, so this is where I actually came across podcasts and when I started looking at into regenerative ag, I started listening to all kinds of podcasts. And then, probably about six to eight months ago, I started listening to Audible. I came across one. I've listened to the. What I started listening to Audible, I came across one. I've listened to the what I would call the typical regenerative ag book Gabe Brown's Dirt to Soil. Joe Salton has many of them.

0:54:10 - Cal
Oh, yeah, but.

0:54:11 - Anthony
I came across this one by Forrest Richard called Gaining Ground.

0:54:18 - Cal
Oh, okay, and.

0:54:19 - Anthony
I am oh, let's see by Forrest Richard called Gaining Ground, and I am oh, let's see, I am on chapter 12 of it and I have found it to be a very level-headed book. I'm not completely through it, but I believe he's where I'm at on things. Oh, okay, in different aspects, because I didn't inherit a farm that was severely broken and debt, but I'm starting at ground zero and trying to build this with minimal income and resources, so it's been a good book to work through. I don't think anybody's mentioned it before.

0:55:01 - Cal
No, I don't think so. I'm not familiar with that book, so I'm going to have to look it up.

0:55:08 - Anthony
Yeah, so I don't know if you can see that.

0:55:11 - Cal
Oh, okay, yeah very good.

0:55:13 - Anthony
He actually had a Joe Salton experience before Joe Salatin was known as he is now. Oh yes, he's over in that area. Oh okay, Went to one of his early on conferences.

0:55:26 - Cal
Yeah, well, I will have to look that up. Appreciate it. I'm always excited to hear something new that I haven't heard of. I'm always like, how did I not hear of it? But it's always good. I came across someone, someone other day and they were. I had asked them something about the podcast and they hadn't heard of the podcast. I'm like I thought I had word out everywhere about the podcast, but obviously not yeah. Our second question, anthony what is your favorite tool for the farm?

0:55:55 - Anthony
I'm going to be unconventional here and say the these uh headset, it's iso tunes, uh 2.0 link and I can wear them and still function while I'm operating hay equipment tractors moving hay. I don't have to stop, I don't have to look at a phone screen. I love my poly reels and whatnot. They make things a lot easier. But to be a little bit different, it's nice to have somebody call me, whether it's about meat sales or a question on hay equipment or my dad in another field. I can just hit a button, answer the phone and the day keeps going. I've had other headsets and earbuds that you have to stop. I've had to go as far as shut the equipment off just so I could have a phone conversation to tell my dad which field to go to next or whatnot.

0:56:56 - Cal
And that's where I am. I use some noise-c. Noise counseling earbuds that work great for that, and I can listen to podcasts. I can listen to audible, audible, and it works great. But if I get a phone call I've got to shut the tractor down so they can hear me. Yeah, so so that's a real nice advantage there. Our third question, Anthony, what would you tell someone just getting started?

0:57:21 - Anthony
Be economical If you came in, even if you had $50,000 to dump on a startup. Don't blow it. We've only operated on cash that we've had in the bank or have brought in through the farm. We run completely separate finances for our livestock hay feed, anything like that. We set aside a separate bank account and we try to operate the farm completely off of that account. So that way we know hey, it's a lot easier to see if you're growing broke. If I got $50 left in the farm account, like I know it's not bringing in an amount. Now if I see I've got $10,000 in there, then it's like oh, but you still got to remember you. You gotta go till your next paycheck on that right and do what you can or learn what you can. I I see posts on facebook of people asking to pay somebody to come out and teach them how to butcher. That might be a hard thing to do, but it's better than just taking a few. You're making meat for yourself that you can butcher on site and put in your freezer.

That's a lot better than paying a butcher every time, and if it's a skill you can gain, that's a lot better than paying somebody else to do it every time excellent advice there, anthony.

0:58:53 - Cal
And and one thing I want to touch on you talk about a separate account for your farm. I think that's so important. And you talk about if you got fifty your farm. I think that's so important. And you talk about if you got $50 in there. That's all you've got in there. Mike Michalowicz and I'm sure I'm saying that wrong I'm practicing with his Profit First book. I love that book and I love his philosophy behind there. In fact, he's writing a personal finance book currently. Psychologically, we see that amount in there and we think, oh, that's what we can spend. So I think so I try and be very careful with that account and I try and keep a low amount in there. And I have some in savings because if I see it and I'm like, oh, that'd be nice to have, well, do I really need it? Yeah, yeah, and I have things I don't need, but at the same time, I think being very economical with it's a great way, especially if you're starting. Still, a great way for everyone else too.

0:59:50 - Anthony
Yeah like a current situation. That would be say, I see a thousand dollars in there and I'm using the makeshift gates right now which is a piece of a fence with a post in it, bail twine to the next post. It's like, hey, I have a thousand dollars in there, I could go buy a couple of 12 foot gates. And it's like, well, I really don't need to move the cows back through that gate for a month. So it's like, eh, let's keep that in there, Right yeah?

1:00:18 - Cal
And lastly. Eh, let's keep that in there, Right yeah? And lastly.

1:00:21 - Anthony
Anthony? Where can others find out more about you? So our only social media representation would be a Facebook page of Longyear Junction Services. The name started with our donkeys and doing some malware and stuff and then bringing in the multi-species herd, so we just figured that was a good combination. But we're not social media stars by the matter. But we do post up some pictures and videos every now and then our meat sales when we have butcher dates set up oh, very good, very good.

1:00:56 - Cal
Anthony, really appreciate you coming on and sharing today.

1:00:59 - Anthony
Thank you, I think it's been good. This is the whole new thing for me, other than doing some webinars and whatnot. Yeah.

1:01:07 - Cal
Well, thank you. I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I know I did. Thank you for listening and if you found something useful. Thank you for listening and if you found something useful, please share it. Share it on your social media. Tell your friends, get the word out about the podcast. Helps us grow.

If you happen to be a grass farmer and you'd like to share about your journey, go to grazinggrasscom and click on Be Our Guest. Fill out the form and I'll be in touch. We appreciate your support by sharing our episodes and telling your friends about it. You can also support our show by buying our merch. We get a little bit back from that. Another way to support the show is by becoming a Grazing Grass Insider. Grazing Grass Insiders enjoy bonus content, monthly Zooms and discounts. You can visit the website grazinggrasscom, click on support and they'll have the links there. Also, if you haven't left us a review, please do. It really helps us, as people are searching for podcasts and I was just checking them and we do not have very many reviews for 2024. So if you haven't left us a review, please do. Until next time, keep on grazing grass.

Transcribed by https://podium.page