Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

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0:00:00 - Mike
Start with simple moving. Keep the cows at least moving as often as you really can.

0:00:06 - Cal
You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, cal Hartage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenerative Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy-to-follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg. Slash grazing. It's n-o-b-l-e dot org. Forward slash grazing. Mike, we want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast. We're excited you're here today.

0:01:36 - Mike
No, it's an honor to be here, Cal Thank you To get started.

0:01:42 - Cal
tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation To get started.

0:01:45 - Mike
Tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation. I'm a third generation cattle crops farmer here in central Iowa and ran about 1,500 acres corn soybeans and we try to stay close to 300 head of cow-calf operation split between two farms. But we're about 280 head now plus we were a 300 head capacity feedlot operation. So most everything that we had done is conventional. We dabble in a few no-till, just done some cover crops with cattle.

0:02:27 - Cal
That's really goes hand in hand at least oh yeah, it's always been conventional. When did you start getting learning about regenerative thinking?

0:02:39 - Mike
hey, I need to do some things differently it was more or less when I was, I took oh, I came back from the military and I took over working the cattle side. I'd actually always hated working the cattle Normal story I hated working them. It's not that I hated working the cattle, it's more or less.

I didn't figure out how I worked the cattle, so I had to learn a little more better, stockmanship getting calmed down and this farm has been around since the 80s and my grandfather he started the rotational, standardized rotational grazing on one paddock that we had. So he had started Rotational grazing on a About a 100 acre area Of pasture land Split into Various paddocks. Some of it was hay ground, some of it was grazing ground and we had also had another pasture With. We really had three pastures In the main farm and, and shortly after I came back from the military we lost one of those pastures so we had to overload one pasture which ended up being that rotational, I would say.

Five years ago I created a, I made a rant on red I do follow Reddit quite a bit so I basically said every year I get more and more frustrated putting 110 head of cow-calf pairs on my 100-acre rotational pasture. Beginning of the season, we take first cutting of 60 acres, which sets me back, but we need the hay, with only one other dedicated 40 acre hay field. I had really been complaining about overgrazing my pasture for, however, many years, with about 100 head on 100 acres which, oh yeah, in normal years would work great. And one day my grandfather came up to me and goes why, don't you split one of those 10 acre paddocks into in half?

and I thought I've heard of this before. It was, at the time, been, yeah, about five years ago, management intensive rotational grazing, and I thought I'm gonna go ahead, take the time, learn it right, do it the right way and figure out how I'm going to make a daily move rotation system, which he did not like that at all because why you gotta move them every day?

that's gonna take too much time setting up all that fence and to set something up like that it does. And the first thing I had to figure out was to measure my forage, and I didn't know anything about measuring forage. My grandfather make me clip it to the ground, if you want wanted to utilize 100, and so I got to reading it and figuring out. I need to know how much they need to take out, and this wasn't even to leave any behind. This was go. How many days do I?

0:05:58 - Cal
how much?

0:05:58 - Mike
area do I need for one day's growth basically and this is what a lot of the schools teach you and I was doing this by flipping through this article or this university research paper and figuring out piece by piece and it took me a solid month of just over. Every time I get off work I'd be flipping through my phone, reading and driving my wife, that's right how much I was technically still working but not getting paid for it. Oh yeah, and I actually got into it and developed a daily move system and a forage measurement calculation and built a spreadsheet to calculate for me by taking 50 different measurements and gives me how many days of forage are per acre. So that's been a handy tool anyway, which I actually made another reddit post about with examples and math, and if we really wanted to get into that one, we could, because it's that's.

The thing I've always noticed is these articles have always told you that there's benefits of regenerative grazing. You should do regenerative grazing. Here's why plenty of benefits, but no article has ever told you how and you have to find it out. Here's why Plenty of benefits, but no article has ever told you how, and you have to find it out on your own, and at that time I had never even heard of.

Ranching for Profit, nor Noble Research Institute None of these I'd ever heard of before because we've been in conventional farming. And even Drovers and other magazines that you would, us commercial guys would get don't have those, except for just a blip going. Hey, this is something new, it's cool you should try it yeah, but it took me going through, I think, university of michigan, nebr, I think one from Pennsylvania, to dial in how to do a daily move system.

0:08:10 - Cal
Mike, let's jump a little bit deeper into those daily moves because I know Facebook groups, other places you hear that question how much grass do I give my cows or my animals? How do I calculate it? You mentioned a spreadsheet there where you take 50 measurements. Let's talk a little bit about your process to calculate how much forage is out there and how you get to the paddock size you want for your cattle, or how many days you get out Sorry to calculate paddock size or how many days you're going to get out of that pasture to calculate paddock size or how many days you're going to get out of that pasture.

0:08:48 - Mike
Yeah, so it really depends on the type of year. Like this year, I haven't even measured anything and have taken a step back and have opened graves because it's gone wild.

But really, if you've got a good let's say you're on a second graze and you want to know if that paddock is high enough to move them or how much you're going to need, you think it's ready. You're going to see what your average height is. So I walk around with a little basic yardstick and step out and take measurements just all up and down your paddock. I say a minimum of 50. The more measurements, the more accurate you're going to be, and I take the top of the leaf pipe of just whatever is around you can pick clover you can pick.

They're going to be different, varying, so I try and pick. I go oh, that's a good spot for a height that I you would average c. So if you see a bare patch, that's five feet, go okay, I'll measure the smallest part of that and then I'll move on to the next part. Measure patch that's five feet go, okay, I'll measure the smallest part of that and then I'll move on to the next part.

Measure something that's a little higher and you get a good kind of an estimate of it because you take the all those measurements and you get an average height out of it. So an example would be if I had 10.4 inches. There's a table I used from Iowa State that would tell you what how many pounds per inch per acre a certain pasture would be, and an example on mine would be 200 pounds per inch per acre was according to this Iowa State chart and I'll have everything posted when this broadcast airs.

0:10:32 - Cal
I'll post it in the grazing grass community. Oh, wonderful, I think that'd be also, as you mentioned that Iowa, did you say Iowa State is where that's from.

0:10:42 - Mike
Yes, it's a, yeah, it's a table from Iowa State University. Is where that's from?

0:10:44 - Cal
Yes, it's a table from Iowa State University. Most of the Lane Grant Universities have those available for your state if you're in the United States, or I'm assuming that, because OSU has one for Oklahoma that I referred to for different numbers.

0:11:00 - Mike
Yep, but yeah, as long as you can figure out what your pounds per inch per acre is, you can. So let's say, if my grass was 10 inches tall, you can multiply that by 200, and you'll get 2,000 pounds per acre of dry matter. Now, these are real estimates, that I mean really guesstimate here, and I really like the low ball. My pasture might be already 250 pounds per inch per acre when.

I actually first started grazing this I started at 150 pounds per inch per acre, I guess in the example math here I get back to reading here. So yeah, with the 2,000 pounds of matter. Yeah, I had to flip through this because a lot of it's not in my head anymore. I let the spreadsheet do its job.

0:11:59 - Cal
But it's a great process to go through because I think after you've done it a while, if you have some automated method like your spreadsheet or something, or you've done it long enough, then you're just eyeballing it.

0:12:14 - Mike
Oh yeah, I, I can go eyeballing it now, but still, even if I'm going into the second rotation, I go I eyeball and think, hey, that looks ready, and I go out and measure it. If it's only 10 inches average, there's really no point. Yeah, I could dial it in if I absolutely needed that forage, but to know how many days is out there is actually a really good thing, because and I'll get into this a little bit further after- a bit.

0:12:39 - Cal
That calibration needs to happen every once in a while.

0:12:43 - Mike
Yeah, and I'll talk about even calibrating that the calculations, because I've done that before.

But when you take the total dry matter of the paddock like okay. So my example is 1,563 times 5 acres, which I was using, the 150 pounds per acre in this calculation now goes 7,815 pounds of dry matter over 5 acres. So to figure out the decimated number of days you need to know how much a lactating cow or dry cow or yearling, is going to need For that one day. So I guesstimated my 80 cow pears would be eating 40 pounds a day. I like to overestimate that one, underestimate your forage, overestimate how much they're going to need to eat, so you'll eat more, and so that equaled to be 3254 pounds a day. I took the total dry matter of the paddock, divided the dry matter requirements and it would equal 2.4 days on the 5 acres. So doing that, I whip out my handy dandy mapping tool and map out on my paddocks 2.4. Or if it's 2.4 days on5 acres, I can split it in half. So 2.5 days here. 2.4, or if it's 2.4 days on five acres, I can split it in half.

So two and a half days here two anda half days there but when you're starting to get into so many days in bigger paddocks, you can go all right, I need three acres for this day, three acres for that day, and so you can map out on your mapping program. Three acres and I do have a mapping program. I really enjoy that. I paid $16 for the pro version of that. Just does a simple area line and it's absolutely free to use for unlimited mapping. But you only get one color, so I like to color code everything.

0:14:45 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:14:45 - Mike
So that's why I paid the 16 bucks for it and it is really paid off. And what is that app? I believe it is field area measure pro is the name of it, and it's really nice, simple mapping app. I have hundreds of things mapped all over different areas. I've even mapped my neighbor's pasture it was a simple if I had that, what would I do for a rotation on his pasture?

oh yeah, I'm trying to map out a rotation up on my north pasture, but that's a quagmire of a creek, a very major creek that likes to flood, and a free gravel pit system that trying to fence everything and figure out rotations and good paddock sizes is impossible, which is why I'm waiting for virtual colors to become more reliable yeah, accordingly, but yeah, when I do the the mapping that that really helps figure out which paddock sizes you can get.

And along with the calculations that I did, I decided to really actually try and check myself. And the best way to check yourself and measure it is try it on a hayfield. See how many round bales you'll get. I estimated our round bales to be about 1,200 pounds completely dry. So I bumped it up and said yeah, let's say our bales are 1,300 pounds. If they're just slightly damp from how you're trying to rush to get hay, you're not going to have it as dry as Out of an entire 40-acre hay field.

I was off by three hay bales, Just by measuring before cutting and baling, I was off by three hay bales. Just by measuring before cutting and baling I was off that far. Three hay bales in the grand scheme of things is not too bad. Yeah, it's 1,300 pounds per bale, but if you think about it I was three bales short. So that's three bales left on the pasture now, basically in my mind for when you're doing it as a mowing system. So to me, that told me what. I was doing was correct.

0:16:53 - Cal
Right, and I can see that benefit of underutilizing your grass versus overutilizing. I'd rather leave a little bit extra out there than to take too much.

0:17:04 - Mike
Yes, and that used to be a big argument with my grandfather too, is that, oh, you're leaving too much grass out there and through a drought year. One year I actually had a hay field that was at my disposal, because the next year we're going to turn it into crop ground, and so I was successful in turn that 36 acre hayfield. I was able to make it last like 48 days on my normal second rotation, and so I couldn't believe that and I was doing so well, for this was year two that I had actually started a daily rotation system, and my grandfather's response out of that was let's rip some more acres.

0:17:46 - Cal
He took that and another 40 acres you talked about your hay meta and you were able, on the second cutting, get 46 days out of that, and your grandpa decided to yeah, he wanted to rip some more acres, which put me into more of a bind because we little known to us we were going to be getting into more of a drought situation and luckily

0:18:10 - Mike
for us. We had some CRP ground just coming out and the derecho happened in 2020, which completely ripped out a whole bunch of trees along this old fence line we had from what was a CRP that I had as a pasture. But the ratio actually did us a favor Because when my grandfather went through and ripped all those trees out, he also ripped the fence line with it. I figured we'd have a bigger open pasture at that point. At that point and the next year, the 2021, I had put some cross fences in over there and turned it into a really nice daily rotational move system, hoping to regenerate that, because in the bottom area where it had been rotational open grazed normally on a regular rotation.

I'd put them out for two weeks, but with 90 pairs I'm able to go an acre a day in good vegetative growth or even in full mature growth still an acre a day. But going in a third trampled, a third grazed and a third standing and just figuring those small things out. And then I tried a rule of disruption, for I remember listening to I think that's the Understanding Hag, one of the principles oh yeah, yeah, it was the principle of disruption and tried that this year by going. I'm on my fourth year of doing this. Now what if I rip the cross fences out and run it a completely different way? So that way it gives these, because everything I drink I use for water is out of the creek.

We're able to use the creek where I'm from, so I just let them have the creek but just limit their access to more than less than five days so they have the whole bank but because I don't have, don't want to put in all the creek bed areas, try to keep them out as much as possible, but if I minimize the amount they're there. So what I was trying to do was split them off. This year we got probably six inches of rain so far this month and haven't been able to fully utilize building that type of system. So it hopefully by maybe tomorrow or the next day I'll have them all under control and back into a one acre section and grazing the mature grass. But it I know year two it.

I noticed the difference and after he had ripped I got less acres. I was running. Last year I ran it was a 90 pair on 80 acres of raised along ground. Oh yeah, and I didn't have to supplement feed, but I did. I had a bunch of old corn silage I wanted to get rid of. As they were raising a 20-acre section. I just fed them every single day. A ration of silage along with their day of grazing actually extended me by two weeks because I had a section that was a one acre narrow strip.

0:21:33 - Cal
That couldn't have been 20 feet wide.

0:21:34 - Mike
That went like 400 feet long and I had to rain the night before and I'll post pictures of this later and when I post it, okay, okay it was was just a nice muddy strip and it's still on my Google Images. I can still see this muddy strip from this year on my mapping program. Oh yes.

0:21:52 - Cal
And.

0:21:53 - Mike
I have a Reddit post that shows the comparison. I had 58 days of rest on that one section and you couldn't even tell where that strip was.

I mean, it was just nothing but hoofed down, trampled down, and it was mature grass so it made a nice muddy mat and then everything came back within that 58 days of rest. But it slightly been impressed with, even in drought years, how I've been able to maintain 90 pairs on 80 acres just by moving them once a day and sticking to it. And that's why the biggest thing is that somebody's just got to remember to stick to it and you will see results anyway.

0:22:41 - Cal
One thing that I have happened out here just right outside my house. Didn't plan on it but it's been really nice to see. I kind of did drift lambing with my sheep and I say kind of I moved the ewes that had lambed, I left them be and I moved the ewes that hadn't lambed yet forward and then I just combined them with the ewes behind as they lambed. And so one area I was for what, oh I remember why I had some other ewes that I'd just weaned some lambs on off of and I'd used electric netting there but on the others I had used just poly wire and I was afraid those ewes would jump it if I put the dry ewes in there that I didn't want in there. So one area got grazed way too short but I thought I'm here just for a little bit, I'm off of it.

The next day or actually it was a few days they were on that area and they grazed it too short. Then the next few rotations I did not take it near as far down. It was just one day. I moved on and I can walk out there today and it's amazing the difference in growth leaving some of that grass there versus taking it so far down which we hear that and we know that. Take a third, trample a third, leave a third, or take half, leave half something of that, leave some cover there. But sometimes we don't get that nice visual reminder of it and I can walk out there. I'm like oh yeah, look how much forage is getting produced here, and this one I've set it back quite a while longer.

0:24:26 - Mike
I've got a lot more rest period on it yeah, that's, and that's what I've been trying to do is get more rest period in the more severely grazed areas that had been grazed that way for 10, it were more than more or less.

white clover and bluegrass are about the only thing that grow, and a few weeds like horse nettle and stuff start to filter, in which I have gotten my cows to eat horse nettle. I have picture proof of that too, and that's the other thing with keeping them in a tight one acre paddock is they'll eat about everything they can find. And I laughed and the reason why I know why the forage comes back so much and my grandfather criticized me, I think, one time because how much it was just trampled over of the mature grass, because I every year I get too far behind and everything goes to seed.

everything's gone to head so I got used to grazing that way. Now what I think my saving grace is they give them that. Third, and if they get that great cover of mat over the ground and then every morning dew that that ground is getting a moisture and then the sun comes out, dries out the dew where it's not getting on your pants, in the standing grass. But if you were to go out to where they just had been and pull that grass back?

0:25:49 - Cal
that ground is still wet. Oh yeah, that ground is much cooler. Yes, yeah, and to concur with that, I go from. I felt like this spring I'm counting days. I'm thinking how much? How many more days do I have? Do I have to destock some? Because we went through a little bit of a dry period Not bad but we got rain.

Then it dried up for just a little while and I'm starting to get worried and I'm like grass not growing fast enough. I'm like, so I'm going here, how many days do I have? Then the rains hit and it went from and it seems like overnight it went from. I had everything in a vegetative state and to everything, all the fescue heading out Seems to me it happened overnight and it's just part of the battle with fescue, I think. But I see that every year and it happens every year and I'm like I'm gonna do better this year and all of a sudden I've got two mature of grass everywhere, but it still works yep, as long as you don't let it go mature too much, because I, because I remember, uh, years back when I was looking at my pasture at the spring green up.

0:27:06 - Mike
I would compare it to the ditches our road ditches are full of smooth growing grass and that stuff would always come up great. So I go okay, why is my pasture not moving that fast? Of course it's grazed on. I didn't know that it was being grazed too much, taking it down too far. And this year I realized, hey, my pasture's growing just as fast as my brome grasses in the past or in the ditches.

So that was my success story. There's that I've already achieved that within three years on one spot anyway. Oh, very good. And that was an area that hadn't had any animal impact on it, for I'm guessing had it been over 50 years, because it was previously CRP and then it was a particle as a crop field, which you can tell, the part that's the crop field is still the hardest to get to full density.

0:28:07 - Cal
The grass is a bit.

0:28:09 - Mike
it may be tall, but it's a little sparser than just down a little ways from it, and it's amazing when you go out in the pasture and see everything that's coming back and especially the old places that I would really over utilize, like a straight and narrow area on a bottom creek. That is probably from the fence to the bank is less than 50 feet, and so either side of that, and I used to give them maybe two days on it until it rained one time and they had mucked it all to complete hell.

And so I had told myself okay, no matter what, they're either going through there and hack out, or, if it gets too much, they get one day, on a dry day, they can have it, and so far I've been finding trees, come back well oh yeah oak trees, cottonwood trees, I think I even have a black locust story tree that I'm gonna fight to make sure nobody sprays. Yeah, I know everybody does a lot like the thorny locusts, but they're a hardy survivor and I've actually heard good things about them.

0:29:25 - Cal
Yeah, and I can't think of the author of tree crops. I think he's the one that says it has dappled shade. So the grass can come up through it. It's not a nice that says it has dappled shade so the grass can come up through it. It's not a nice. It's not a thick shade or heavy foliage to keep the sun out. The sun still gets there, but still provides some shade yeah.

0:29:50 - Mike
And nothing messes with it.

0:29:52 - Cal
Yeah, I rent some land that was dug or mined for coal and they went in and because they'd removed trees they had to remove, they have to put back so many trees, I think it's. I could be totally wrong. I think it's a tree for each tree they remove or something. Anyway, I'm maybe wrong on that, but they'd put back a lot of honey locusts and I remember I'd showed my dad it and he said oh, you got these all little honey locusts They'll be okay, because he has a different opinion than I do about them. But someone else had use of it until it was fully released and they went in and sprayed all the honey locusts and killed them.

So for one, the government spent all this money. I guess the government didn't spend the money. Let me rephrase the coal company spent all this money to plant those trees in because the government required them to. And then, just a few years later, the person that was leasing the land from the coal company they had some kind of agreement there so they could graze and keep Johnson grass in check but they went in and I'm assuming that's who did it. I could be totally wrong, but anyway, someone went in and killed all those locust trees they had just planted. I'm like, why plant them? You've got to plant them because that's the government requirement for them to do. But I'm like, why plant them?

You've got to plant them because that's the government requirement for them to do.

0:31:19 - Mike
But I'm like what Long-term cover crop? Yeah Okay, Kind of what we do with our rye and we're doing our crop bales is planting it and then killing it. Oh, yeah. Built a rut system. There you go.

0:31:30 - Cal
It may help in some way. Yeah, you had mentioned cover crops.

0:31:40 - Mike
Are you grazing cover crops as well? Yeah, I said, two years ago we tried to ride for the first time and bailed 218 bales out of a 70 acre field and I got done using those 218 bales this year.

So, yeah, we had already. So we put soybeans out and then we rotated back to corn on, and this year we put rye back out on it which I have not baled yet or mowed or done anything with. And I had two other fields that I put into rye that I completely total grazed, totally grazed one of them, perfectly fine, was able to get a kill down on it, grazed the other one as best as I could, until we had a major storm system coming that I decided my main pasture is already mature. I might as well get them out on the mature pasture in case I get a flood, because I'd rather have them out on the mature pasture in case I get a flood, because I'd rather have them out on that side of the pasture if they're. It turns out to be a week-long event of rain, which it ended up being. So yeah it, it can get sprayed and it's got enough cover for a decent amount and then.

I've got a 19 acre amount of rye that I have no idea what I'm going to do with oh yeah, besides maybe roll it over and do a fall perennial pasture mix into it, because I planned on turning it into a pasture anyway. Oh yeah, so it gives me 19 more acres to play with which I had planned on putting summer annuals through in with, but that's now that the rye has gone crazy.

0:33:20 - Cal
I had different plans why do you use rye as the cover crop?

0:33:27 - Mike
mainly is because I don't know any better right now and I just I guess that's what everybody said.

0:33:35 - Cal
You gotta use rye on.

0:33:37 - Mike
It's most common, I guess. Now I've been diving deeper into it a little bit and thinking, okay, maybe I can add this as a cover crop. Maybe I should add this Wherever I'm going to put cows, I'll put more of a forage mix cover crop in instead of just a rye, because I'm finding out rye is really difficult to control by just cattle anyway unless you had less acres.

I mean I might turn to, if I do a more rye system, I might do a stocker operation or something like that and put or put some of my lower performing yearing yearlings out on a rye a 400 mix, but I didn't have enough head to keep it under control this year.

0:34:24 - Cal
Which is a good problem, oh yeah, if you have too many and you don't have enough grass. That's a worse problem. As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have too much grass than too many animals.

0:34:35 - Mike
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have too much grass than too many animals. Yeah, until I think I had was one year I had a rotation to where, where the brome went bad and oh yeah, because it I think it was a little bit drier.

So when it went to maturity it went to maturity way fast and it had its seed formed and you could just see how thin each one of them leaves looked and they were turning, I guess, a blue-green color. I guess that were. Oh yeah, it does matter when you're doing, I guess, mature grass that you get it knocked down.

Ate down before it gets way too late and thin and and dry, because it takes even longer to get that to come back again I think in my opinion even in a 60 day rotation. I've had this one that used to be hay, used to be crop it gets mixed into different things, but now as a permanent pasture for me and that one I'm finally getting it to where it will go over a 15 inch average height on a a good spring. Right now I can probably have it 20 inch in certain areas on a good vegetative state anyway.

0:35:58 - Cal
Oh, very good, let's talk just a little bit about your cattle. I'm all about what breed are you running? Share just a little bit about your cattle and what you're doing with them.

0:36:08 - Mike
Yep, just a typical commercial Angus cows on Charolais bulls, oh yeah. Commercial angus cows on charlotte bulls, oh yeah and yeah, my family has always been a fan of the charlotte and we've always had a market for them, for the packers, until, I guess, I lost one packer and we disagreed with a second packer and I decided to go a different route, and so charlays are now just sold on auction, so oh yeah they're in around my area.

They're a little difficult to sell because one of the packing plants only accepts angus cows or black hide. Oh yes, so I had to actually add angus's onto my herd just so I can. I like to sell on the grid for packer and you're trying to be the big guy into the as a small guy in a feedlot industry there which is a difficult game to be playing, I know a lot of guys that do this rotational grazing or re-air grazing.

they don't finish out like we do because they mostly sell feeders, and I think I was the one that first sold feeders in the family line and I just had to because I wasn't going to sell everything on auction. I had to have a second option. I just didn't have room.

0:37:33 - Cal
Oh yeah, yeah, you'd mentioned 300 head feedlot, you taking those animals through a feedlot and directly to a packer yeah, I, we have the.

0:37:45 - Mike
My grandfather actually had built one of the first, I think, in the county or one of the first in the state. A camera, how many head it?

0:38:00 - Cal
was like 150 head confinement building feedlot.

0:38:02 - Mike
Oh, yes, yeah, manure pit. Confinement building the slat pit. I think they're 38 or 36 foot by 36 foot or something like that. So it's got a slatted floor and it's got the pit underneath it yep, a flat floor underneath which is finally gotten too old to be handling cattle anymore. So everybody's out in my three lot feedlot system. I got there and so I split it in half.

I try and keep about 100 to 150 to sell live auction at the packer close by. That takes the anguses and I just started trying to get into some genetics program not genetics but my own breeding. I bought two of my own charlotte cows and tried to put maybe a charlotte bull on them, which failed this year because I tried to keep them as separate herds and yesterday they all merged because, my big herd decided, oh, we don't want to be here.

So they went all the way up, met the other group, decided to go through and I've been so far behind. I haven't gotten my bulls out, except for one bull who I turned out early because he was going to be the last one in the lot after. I just bought him Because I put him in with the bred cows and I was like I'm going to have to kick them all out.

He's going to be five days ahead of the other guys. What's the big deal? Fifteen days later, my bulls are still sitting out here in this rye field that I haven't even kicked out yet. Things like that happen. He's doing he was doing all the work for 70 cows and he just had 16 more added to him, just yeah, he's been busy.

0:39:43 - Cal
Yeah, I know for charlotte. I see more charlotte bulls in this area over the last I guess, 10 years maybe a little shorter period of time than that but i'm'm seeing a lot more Charolais around my neighbor to the north of us. He usually runs a few Charolais bulls.

0:40:02 - Mike
They're a really good breed. They're pretty docile. I know a lot of people think that they might be a bit high-handed, and it's just if they don't want to do something.

They're just going to walk for you anyway, but they're really great meat producing bulls. I mean, we look for heavy carcass weights, heavy birth weights, heavy large ribeye and I'm trying to now just maybe mix and match and try and find a right mix of Charolais and Angus, because I was picking my Angus bulls the same way as I do Charolais as carcass. The same carcass traits which rib eye area is the biggest one for me anyway, and it's been pretty good at determining what would get heavy near the end of it. I try, and my average weaning weights are around in the 700s 600, 700 weaning weights and the one pasture is with supplemental creep feed and the other one tried doing that. But trying to keep up with that on a daily rotation is very difficult.

So this year I completely said I'm not going to do any more creep feed on that one and I'll I guess I'll see what happens and that'll be great.

0:41:20 - Cal
You'll be able to compare and contrast two herds and see how it does.

0:41:24 - Mike
Yeah, and I do have a herd on a sow farm that's run by another guy who's been managing it, for it has to be 15, 20 years now, I think, right now and he's managing our other 150 head down there on 750 acres. But that's an open graze. Maybe he might have a few paddocks areas. I'm not actually too familiar with it because I've been too busy up here and my family's the rest of my family has been managing my grandfather manages that with him and stuff on that end.

I technically just work for the farm, but I was still, as a family member, working towards that goal of ultimately hopefully owning everything. Oh yeah but, yeah, it's whole operation up here is actually ran by my grandfather, who is 88, my uncle and father, who are in their 60s, and I'm 39 years old almost 40 now, so a lot of age here and we also have a hired man that has been with us for 15 years now oh yeah but a lot of the cattle work I've done pretty much myself.

I got to the point where it's funny, it was my grandpa that'll never work or you'll never be able to do that. My favorite memory of that was, he told me, the old way was we'd have to go and get the cows up, get them in the corral, just to sort one that was off. That was sick. These cows were a mile away in the corral just to sort one that was off. That was sick. These cows were a mile away from the corral in my rotational pasture, at the farthest end I could be, and I would have to bring the whole herd up for this. Really she was one of our wild ones. I had her marked as wild on the birthing truck.

Oh yeah, and we do controlled calving, so they're crazy. But we try not to have that. But right, her cap was sick. I thought what if I take the truck and trailer, stick it out there? I can grab the calf, put him in the trailer she really likes that calf with one gate and stand behind the door of that truck trailer and I waited there for half hour before she went in the trailer Jumped right back out as soon as that door moved.

Oh yeah, I thought, okay, maybe Grandpa was right, Hell with that. I gave myself two hours. I told him. I said I bet you I could do it in two hours. It was about another hour later. She come right back up that door, Went right up and I was just too early the first time, because I got that door closed came back and showed him.

0:44:10 - Cal
Yeah, I got him Very good. Yeah, mike, it's been an excellent conversation, but it's time for us to move on to our overgrazing section. In the overgrazing section, we take a deeper dive into some aspect of your operation, find out a little bit more there. And something you had mentioned earlier on was educating yourself about rotational grazing, regenerative practices, without going to one of these schools. But it seems like there's schools on every corner right now, but at the time that wasn't the case, and oftentimes, even with the schools, you gotta find time and make sure you can get there. Is it somewhere close?

0:44:54 - Mike
so let's just talk a little bit about how you educated yourself about it first I'm gonna give the disclaimer that I'm not saying any of these schools are bad these schools are actually in the complete opposite. These schools are even better than I would say in land-grant universities for trying to learn on how to get started and actually how to raise, because they can teach you in so much faster time than it took me to even get just the idea.

And this was without social media when I was first learning, and this was without social media when I was first learning, but with social media it's been so much faster, so many more ideas to where I'm throwing out summer annuals in my sacrifice panic when I would have never thought of it. So what I was saying about the schools is that, yes, the schools are great, but if you really don't want to try and burn the fifteen hundred dollars or however much it was because or you may be just like me and some guys claiming increase your forge capacity or your stocking rate by 300 and stuff like that then I guess start with your universities. Some of these universities have actually done some research into it. Also, look into how some of these others.

I'm not a book guy. The only book I've actually listened to on grazing was Holistic Management by Alan Savory, which was good. I enjoyed that one and it's a thinker. But it is not much of an instruction tool exactly, but it does make you think. But just by seeing what other people do and learning how what works for you and I guess, going into the holistic manager, what your context is, everybody's context is going to be completely different and it took me just dedication and kind of a desire to do it right and to tell myself I actually told myself when I first started it that I will only do this for three years and if it doesn't work or it becomes too much of a headache then I'll just go back to what I was doing. Oh yeah, and I was hoping to find more pasture to just lighten the load. But now that I've done it and figuring out I'm running by however many pounds per acre stocking rates and getting into more, maybe I'm gonna move my paddocks north and south instead of east and west this year, stuff like that and then seeing the the results.

It's when you stick with it. Try it for a year two, you'll see a little result. By year three you'll see even better results by by year three. I was already convinced by year two, but by year three I started thinking even more what can I do more of?

And you just you have to have the drive and passion or the least desire to learn about it and look it up on almost a daily basis and to keep it in the mind. You're already listening to this podcast, so that's a start and I listen to podcasts every time I get a chance. I've taken a hiatus from it lately, but I try and listen to at least your podcast, herd Quitter podcast, a few other ones that are cattle related, and see what other people are doing in your area and I follow facepliff now on different grazing groups, and so that that's been a lot of help so you can educate yourself into knowing how to do it. And if you don't know how to do it, there are people you can probably ask how they do it and they will freely teach you. And the biggest thing is trying to find someone in your area.

0:48:59 - Cal
Yeah, I really think that is because there's lots of people out there that's willing to share what they've learned so you don't make the same mistakes. Educating yourself is a great way. If you can't make it to one of those schools or you're working at a slower pace, you can't get time off work whatever. The schools are really good too. Now, one thing you mentioned that we don't hear often on the podcast is Reddit. So tell us, do you get a lot of information from reddit? I'll be honest, I'm on reddit every day, but very rarely is it regenerative, ag focused, and I was sitting here thinking, as you mentioned, I thought why haven't I used it with that focus? So share about if you're able to get information off Reddit, if it's beneficial to you.

0:49:55 - Mike
I guess I get some news off of it.

0:49:57 - Cal
I was more looking for a community, because I was always following.

0:50:00 - Mike
Reddit on as far as like my normal social media, enjoying jokes, memes and other fun stuff. And then I found the farming subreddit, and I've also found ranching and cattle subreddits. I think those are the main three that I usually follow, but oh, okay, you get some information, you get some back and forth dialogue.

I like to answer questions that people have about that are cattle related, because I know a lot about. I mean, I actually just take an interest in the cattle themselves, their behaviors, the every time we've had them vet out I've, since we do deal with iowa state university as their vet. They're a teaching school so I might as well be a student along with them.

Yeah, I, I'm paying them anyway to do a service. I might as well be a student along with them. I'm paying them anyway to do a service. I might as well be letting them teach me how to do it myself, which has saved a lot of times, a lot of money, to where I actually had the vet go. Hey, we haven't done our. Was it the VCRP, the Veterinary Client Relationship?

0:51:08 - Cal
Protocol.

0:51:11 - Mike
I went to order meds and they're like, hey, we haven't been out there in a year. I'm like, oh yeah, we're calling out. Yeah well, I was just looking at the reddit site. They do. Yeah, they have a regenerative bag, uh subreddit, which has got 9,403 members and I think a lot of it is. When you look at regenerative ag, it's a different. When you see regenerative ag, it seems that it's more row crop regenerative.

Oh yeah, or crop-related regenerative. When we're going into regenerative livestock, we're going into regenerative livestock. We're talking about regenerative grazing, which I know it's going to have a lot of different names and labels Management-intensive, rotational grazing, mob grazing, regenerative grazing. I prefer to call it adaptive grazing because here you can adapt wherever you want to put them if you can put them.

0:52:12 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:52:13 - Mike
Like right now. I actually took a step backwards and opened my 40 acres up to the cows and said have at it until I can get you under control, because things are chaotic right now.

0:52:23 - Cal
Mike, I have to say I think that's so important, as we, as farmers, we're not doing this in a vacuum. We have the rest of life that we have to account for too, whether that's some other part of the farm or something else in life. I just put my cattle into a paddock. They're going to stay in for, I guess, four or five days because we're going on vacation. I guess four or five days because we're going on vacation.

So that's why I spent today doing was getting all the paddock size and getting everything moved so they don't have to move for almost a week, because that's that work for me. But that's part of that adaptiveness. Yeah, you have to realize what's happening around you and you have to do things that work in work in your context.

0:53:10 - Mike
yeah, and sometimes they don't work like I even in my case right now. That's why I like to call it adaptive is because, as I said, that I've got them on that 40 acres open pasture right now, even though it's been this would be the second or third week they've already been out on grazing and it's okay.

It'd be the second week they were supposed to be on that paddock and then this last week they ended up from since Monday they ran back up to the main sacrifice paddock and then I pushed them back into finally back into where they were supposed to be, and my idea that I had before was I was going to make and took out all my cross fences and I wanted to go north and south and keep them out of one specific area. The weather turned bad and that idea went, so I ended up taking one line out. They were in a paddock for three days at five acres for three days, and that turned out perfectly fine. They actually stayed there until the water went down and they went and had access to the whole pasture and sadly, I had a family friend of ours.

They lost the farm in a tornado, so I had to go and spend a couple days helping clean up. So I thought I'm not going to take the time to get you guys put into a daily rotation right now. Have at it and I'll get you under control later, which I'm hoping to do by tomorrow. But they've already had about a week or so of open grazing that. But they still haven't knocked the whole thing down. Because that's when you get into selective, non-selective grazing. Selective grazing is okay for a little bit, but after a week, especially if you're trying to achieve a regenerative goal, you still at least need to have some sort of control at some point.

So I know I have to have them back into one one and a half acres of daily move at some point, otherwise when I put them out on that 20 acres, I come back to it. I'm gonna have a mix of some good, some overused grass and right. Yeah, it's a game you just have to play, and but it is as long as you can keep them moving around, because I was even thinking about that. It's like what if I start viewing herd moving just going out kicking out of here.

0:55:37 - Cal
Ladies, let's go over here today, and I don't have time to set up a fence, I'm just going to put you over on this corner I've been uh reading for love of soil by nicole masters and one thing she talks about in there is range riding or some of the ranches she worked with. And then we had Bob Kinford that was on the podcast a while back and his instinctual migratory herding. I think that's really interesting. Most of the pastors I work with are too small to get anything done on that, but I always think that's really interesting how they do that.

0:56:12 - Mike
Yeah, I think it's interesting that there is some good stuff into that herd moving. Yeah, if you want to be a dedicated person, I guess I should have said something about where, proximity and location, Because that does make a big difference.

I have the greatest fortune that my pasture is one mile away or two miles away oh yeah, so that is why I can do this daily move and be so easy and quick and make it seem so effortless on my part. So I I will say that's, that's a big deal because if I was to try, and do this eight.

My other pasture is 18 miles away and to do a daily move on that, I would understand, would be rather tedious. So even if you're an hour away, I think even a weekly move or some sort of keeping the cows moving, which I think. Virtual fencing technology is suddenly popping up and that could be a whole other topic and I actually hope you would maybe find somebody who is using it and interview them, because I actually went to a no Fence conference it was a Grasslands and Forage Council convention and they had somebody from no Fence talking and I was pretty impressed. They were close enough to getting me to want to buy at least 40 collars and put them up on that north pasture and see what happens.

0:57:44 - Cal
I'll be honest, they are really close to getting me. I think no Fence is the one I've looked at. I think Vince is not as accurate for smaller areas.

0:57:57 - Mike
Not only that but Vince, I talked to them. They're not solar. And if you were to do a smaller area because I actually just tried to pick the brain of the sales consultant on the phone and said, let's say I decided to do it how often would you think I would have to change the battery? She said every three months. Oh yes, imagine hands-on cattle every three months.

0:58:22 - Cal
Yeah, but the great thing, that technology is just going to continue to get better, it's going to get cheaper and like you, I am just eager to try it. I can't quite justify it yet and I've even thought about and it doesn't even make sense. Then I've just got a handful of goats. If I just used it on my goats to do some management with that, it'd give me some experience with it. But then you're working with a small number. It's hard to justify the base station and other stuff. But I'm watching very closely.

0:58:54 - Mike
Yeah, it's exciting to see that stuff come out, and there's been other companies that just started popping up on Facebook. I see even Gallagher's got one.

0:59:02 - Cal
Yeah, I saw something else on another company on Facebook I don't remember who it was yeah, Halter is the other one.

So interesting. It's going to be an exciting time to see how that goes and works for people. But, mike, it is time for us to change gears. We need to transition to our famous four questions, sponsored by Ken Cove Farm Fence. Ken Cove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass Podcast and grazers everywhere.

At Ken Cove Farm Fence they believe there's true value within the community of grazers and land stewards. The results that follow, proper management and monitoring, can change the very world around us. That's why Ken Cove is dedicated to providing an ever-expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant. Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres, ken Cove has everything you need to do it well, from reels to tumbleweels, polytwine to electric nets, water valves to water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Ken Cove. They carry brands like Speedrite, o'briens, kiwi Tech, strainrite, jobe and more. Ken Cove is proud to be part of your regenerative journey. Call them today or visit kencovecom, and be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Ken Cove YouTube channel at Ken Cove Farm Fans for helpful how-to videos and new product releases. It's the same four questions we ask of all of our guests. So we'll get started with our first question. What is your favorite grazing grass-related book or resource?

1:00:48 - Mike
Not to brag to you about your podcast, but yes, your podcast is one of them and cute uh. Basically any podcasts that are cattle related I try and listen to, and I've already mentioned heartquare, ranching reboot oh, I know, practically ranching. That's the other one, ci cattle chat and uni beef Watch is another good one. I listen to a lot of podcasts. While I'm working, I have a headset that I just like to listen to.

And reading like I said, facebook and Reddit is about it. I'm not much of a book reader. I did listen to Alan Savory's Holistic Management and might get a few more audiobook books if one piques my interest, but I enjoy mostly the social media aspect of learning.

1:01:35 - Cal
oh yeah, yeah, and excellent resources there. You mentioned the audio book. I've recently started listening to audio books and I really struggle with the audio book. If I tell someone I'm reading a book, but it it's an audio book, I feel like I have to clarify why I'm listening to it.

1:01:52 - Mike
Yeah, I'm listening to a book. It's a social dynamic there. Go old school as a book on tape. There we go, yeah, yeah.

1:02:02 - Cal
Our second question, Mike, what is your favorite tool for the farm?

1:02:09 - Mike
I would actually have to say my favorite tool tool, my number one favorite tool, is my smartphone because, as we've already discussed, I put my spreadsheet calculations in there, all my random data that I hardly ever use is in there, my mapping programs in there, my ability to reach out and listen to you is on there, and so pretty much a lot of my cattle management and a lot of stuff cattle related is in my phone. Oh yeah, and I'll also post this in the grazing grass community. But I've also built a few other tools. I built a corner post out of basically two pieces of channel iron one-inch channel iron that I put stakes in, mounted a pvc post to like a pvc pipe and I make it as like a quarter post for my poly lines.

I mainly use like those. There's like the o'brien step-in posts, the plastic ones, but they're the cheaper. I get them from like bongars or it's like tractor supply type they're $1.49 a fence post and snap with the first time something hits it.

But I've been switching to the gallagher ringtops and so I've been trying to find different tools and been getting innovative on trying to find different ways of setting them, and so I know I've shared with you before on that. I actually have a tile tube that is like an eight inch tile tube that I capped off at one end, put a strap on for my shoulder and I can carry over 20 fence posts those step in fence posts with it, yeah, and I can set 400 feet of fence line, which I don't like to go over 400 feet if I don't have to because it becomes difficult to carry that much and stepping it all out. But I can set up and tear down my normal daily moves because I don't usually back fence, I'll let them just stair, step up my moves.

And so I'll just set a fence, take a fence, and that quiver is what I call it. My post quiver has been a lifesaver. Another one good tool is a pair of plastic pliers. They're bus fuse pulling pliers. They're meant to take out fuses like those little, the copper fuses out of big shut-off little industrial shut-offs.

Oh yeah, they're a complete plastic plier and that has saved me so much where, when it comes off like it comes off your fence post somehow, or the wire you just need to touch a live wire and just boom makes it really nice.

1:04:58 - Cal
Oh.

1:04:59 - Mike
I guess the last one that is a pretty cheap invention is my fence tester. I actually carry it in my pocket most times, so I don't lose it. Test or actually carry it in my pocket most times, so I don't lose it, but I all I need is to know my voltages and that's all I get. Good enough for me, because I know my fans.

1:05:15 - Cal
And knowing your voltage is so important. It makes a big difference.

1:05:19 - Mike
It explains a lot of things that happen.

1:05:21 - Cal
Oh, yes, it does.

1:05:24 - Mike
It's running 6.3. It's perfectly fine when it's normally supposed to be running A, but 6.3. It's perfectly fine when it's normally supposed to be running hay, but 6.3,. It's got a little bit of a load on it. Okay, it's 5. 5, it's too much. I've got to go clear some grass or figure out if it's just barely zapping onto a post.

1:05:41 - Cal
Oh, yeah, mike. Our third question is what would you tell someone just getting started?

1:05:49 - Mike
I guess I had talked about it in the overgrazing section.

But tell somebody getting started, if you're like me and you're in just your conventional ag and you've been, let's say, open grazing or set stocking, close off a section Once you feel like your one pasture is getting overused, move them into another section.

Start that way. Start with simple moving. Keep the cows at least moving as often as you really can and learn how to measure forage and you'll eventually, once you can measure it by stick and put the math to the numbers, your head's going to do it for you by your eyeballs. Oh yeah, you'll know how much is too much trampled, how much is too much grazed, and then you'll start to see the results in even two years, but I guarantee it in three years almost, and I'm not the guy for somebody who comes up to me and goes I guarantee this. No, I've heard it from people who say they guarantee it and I'll say the same thing. I swear by it. I guarantee the third year is that magic number that the results do happen, number that the results do happen. If you don't know the results by year three, then you probably need to rethink the strategy and or destock.

1:07:16 - Cal
Yes, yeah, excellent advice there, mike. And lastly, where can others find out more about you?

1:07:22 - Mike
I don't do too much for not really that open. This is the lowest I've ever opened up for a little while, but I'm on Facebook. I actually do have a Facebook group called Grazing Iowa and I had this. You would be the first time I actually advertised it out anywhere. But oh yes, I'll along with. When this gets broadcast, I'll post a link on the Grazing Grass community. But I want to get along with. When this gets broadcast, I'll post a link on the grazing grass community.

But I want to get along with getting people nearby, I want to find other people who are grazing nearby and see what's get them all together. So we have, in the same environment, in the same context, that we could figure out together.

1:08:09 - Cal
I think that local area is so important. Grazing Iowa. I'm sitting here thinking we need a grazing Oklahoma if there's not one. I like that idea.

1:08:18 - Mike
I mean there's a lot of regenerative grazing groups and I enjoy your grazing grass community too, because I also see people cross-post to regenerative grazing. Facebook too, so I get double feeds, which I don't mind. More information, because people don't follow some, people follow others and I agree. It seems like the answers are a little bit different in both cases as well yeah, and that's what I enjoy is seeing see which one has the better of the comments and or which one's got the best different comments and no, I would like to get an iowa group.

So if anybody is from iowa, I do have that stipulation. I'll, even I'll, if you're nice about it, I'll allow within an hour border because, yes, you do business in iowa, oh, but it'll be grazing related any species. I know I just do cattle, but I know there's more species than that. So if anybody wants to join and just request to join, it and you may be able to find me on Facebook, which I'll make a post, of course so then you can find me, because I actually looked myself up and there are many Basset farms on Facebook.

1:09:24 - Cal
So oh, yes.

1:09:27 - Mike
Just look for me in the grazing grass community and I'll have a post.

1:09:32 - Cal
Wonderful, Mike. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today.

1:09:38 - Mike
Yeah.

1:09:38 - Cal
I appreciate it and have a good one. I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I know I did. Thank you for listening and if you found something useful, please share it. Share it on your social media. Tell your friends, get the word out about the podcast. Helps us grow.

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