Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

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0:00:00 - Kody
Get involved with some local farmers that are doing it, or find someone. Maybe, if you have to drive an hour or two, bounce ideas off of guys that have been doing it. You're listening to the.

0:00:08 - Cal
Grazing Grass Podcast sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, cal Hartage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenerative Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy-to-follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg slash grazing. It's nobleorg forward slash grazing. Cody, we want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass podcast. We're excited you're here today.

0:01:39 - Kody
Thank you, Kyle. I appreciate you having me on. I've listened for quite a while and I'm pretty excited for the opportunity.

0:01:44 - Cal
Wonderful.

0:01:50 - Kody
Cody, to get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation? Yeah, I live up in northeast Missouri. Monroe City is the town's name. We're about an hour and 15 minutes north of St Louis or the outskirts of St Louis, 20 minutes west of Hannibal and 36, if you know where that's at. I am a ninth generation agrarian in northeast Missouri, a fifth generation on the farm ground. We're still on. My mom, my grandpa and myself own about 550 acres of mix between row crop and pasture. We've been converting more to pasture the last couple years. Yeah, so I moved home in 2021 after my dad passed away, so that was really. I'd been involved in the farm for quite a few years, but really opened the door after he was gone. Mom didn't want to run the whole thing, so I came back and, on about half the ground, started taking it over.

0:02:36 - Cal
Now, cody, prior to coming back in 2021, did you grow up thinking, hey, this farming is great, this is what I want to do, or what were your thoughts as a kid about this?

0:02:50 - Kody
I always liked being outside and playing on the farm. I probably wasn't the most excited about doing the farm work. At all times I enjoyed cattle. I don't love sitting in tractors. I do some row cropping I live in row crop country, so it's just a reality for us but the livestock and the grasslands were always my favorite. So at the time I was looking to get away and do something else because I didn't want to have to sit in the tractor. And then, yeah, full circle. I spent a lot of time in machinery. But I get to sneak out and play with play in the pastures quite a bit too.

0:03:20 - Cal
Yeah, pretty fun and and I have to concur the livestock was always my favorite Haying season. Haying season was the only time in my life that I'm happy I have asthma and allergies. That's a good out. Yeah, and it got me out of a lot on haying season. In fact, it caused my parents to get a cab tractor, which took some of my excuses away. But we just had a family get-together for Mother's Day and my brother was still complaining about how I didn't help as much in the hay pasture. And here we are, a few decades later.

0:03:58 - Kody
Yeah, I've got a younger brother and there's always comparison. There's 11 years between us. Oh yeah, we're always comparing how the two of us were raised, because there's quite a few differences.

0:04:08 - Cal
Yeah, and completely on a tangent, we have a sister. So my brother is 22 months younger than me, so two years, almost two years. We have a sister that's seven years younger than us, so she's the baby and the only girl in the family. So we feel like we really were mistreated. Now Dad gets tired of hearing that and he's oh, you guys weren't mistreated, we weren't. But it's fun to complain about it.

0:04:35 - Kody
Oh yeah, yep, Gets everybody started at family events, I'm sure.

0:04:38 - Cal
Oh, yeah, yeah, I pride myself on being able to make my brother and sister mad in half a second. Anyway, enough of that tangent, Cody. When you did you go away to college?

0:04:50 - Kody
I did. Yeah, I graduated high school in 2012, went to the University of Missouri, studied plant sciences, that's. I got to school and I've got a couple of friends I got hooked up with and realized I wasn't the only weird kid that really liked grass. So that probably started the addiction for me. A couple of buddies and myself. We got into native grasses and talking about how to work within our ecosystem better ecological context for our area. We would have historically been oak savanna, tallgrass prairie Obviously a lot of row crop now, but I'm always interested in doing like habitat restoration and that kind of stuff and tying in the livestock to that. Yeah, college opened some doors in that area. It helped me grow my network with some friends yeah, I put some time down there.

My wife she's from my hometown. We got married while we were in college and both of us graduated in 2016 and decided to move back home to the farm Her family. They had a commercial hog operation and she came back home to work on that and I started working at a local co-op up here and just helping on the side on the family farm. I rented about 40 acres from my family at that time for pasture, but that was our foot in the door getting back home.

0:05:53 - Cal
Yeah, then in 2021, you really started helping a lot more there. Tell us what you're doing on your farm.

0:06:01 - Kody
Yeah, so we're a mixed operation. Like my wife and myself, she runs the hog side of it. I really don't have. I don't have anything to do with that. She's great at that. I run our livestock, grass, maple livestock and row crop. We farm a little over 500 acres of row crop, about just a hair less than 300 acres of grass ground. We have 230 ewes that we run on cover crops and some perennial pastures. We only had cows of our own. We run anywhere between 40 and 80 contract cows on a given year, depending on the grass. But yeah, that's what we do on that end of the operation.

0:06:34 - Cal
When you went back in 2021, were cows and sheep already on the operation or were they addition after that?

0:06:41 - Kody
My mom and dad had about 100 head of cow-calf pairs. That's gotten whittled down. I'm not counting those into it. My mom still has 210 acres she lives on. She runs a herd of cattle. We culled back quite a bit on the amount of cows we had for her. Just easier for mom. She's put in a water system on her farm and quite a bit of infrastructure. So she's dialed back to about 50 head of cows letting grass recover and as the system's coming online she'll probably continue to grow it from there. But we always had livestock. Like I said, we were bounced anywhere between 90 and 100 van head or pairs of cows A big part of our operation for quite a few years.

0:07:15 - Cal
What brought you to adding sheep to your operation?

0:07:19 - Kody
So my wife she grew up showing sheep. I always said we wouldn't have any and at one point in time she thought we needed five for the kids. They were smaller, easier to work with and I she talked me into getting sheep and I probably annoyed her ever since then because I became obsessed with them, because they just they really fit our operation well. So I took it and completely ran off the deep end with it. So we had about 340 head last year before a drought hit. Now we cut back a little bit. We're bringing pastures back online from converting crop ground. But yeah, she's the one that got me to drink the Kool-Aid on the sheep, whether she wants to admit it or not. And yeah, they're probably my favorite animal to deal with now.

0:07:58 - Cal
You know there's that joke always about chicken math One plus one equals ten or something, so it sounds like sheep math got you all yeah it goes from like five to 50 to 300 and it just keeps.

0:08:11 - Kody
Yeah, it doesn't stop for some reason.

0:08:13 - Cal
Yeah, so when we think about your livestock, we're talking your cattle and your sheep. How do you manage those?

0:08:20 - Kody
So we've got a rotational grazing pistol and we've been putting paddocks in. I I'm trying. When I started out with my cows on that first 40 acres, I had somewhere around 18 or 19 different paddocks the sheep. Currently I'll run them inside of net fencing. A lot of times I'm on crop ground with no perimeter bend, which sometimes is good, a good experience. Another. I can tell you some horror stories on that. Thankfully they normally stay off the neighbors and just eat my crops.

But yeah yeah, so I I give them anywhere depending on the grass supply a half acre to an acre and a quarter a day, as far as that you flock goes, and sometimes multiple moves, hoping to eventually get the infrastructure in on the place I live on to where I've got five acre paddocks and I can subdivide from there.

Oh yeah, but we try to move them every day to two to three days. This time of year with my day job and being in the field, some of the farms I rent we dial back to where we're probably moving weekly on cattle. I'd like to be better about it, but it's just a time issue. On getting to them, we had direct marketed some meat the last couple years into St Louis, so we are grass bed and grass managed as far as that goes. I stepped out of that this year just for the row crop side and weren't loaded. My day job was picked up a little bit so we dialed back as far as going down to the city every weekend to a farmer market, but I'm still doing some online sales.

0:09:33 - Cal
One thing that immediately jumps out to me is your rotation, or your duration. On a paddock You're moving them a little slower than a lot of people talk about and you've got to do those daily moves or you've got to move them closer or more often. I think you bring up an excellent point. You're working off the farm, so you have to move them in relationship to that off the job or off the farm job, because we can complain about those, but they pay a lot of bills.

0:10:02 - Kody
Yep, they do. When you pay down some debt and let the livestock just take care of themselves, you they pay a lot of bills. Yep, they do. When you pay down some debt and let the livestock just take care of themselves, you can make a lot of headway. So first year back after my dad passed, I worked myself into the ground trying to keep up on the daily moves and everything. Oh yeah, just had to have a little reevaluation about we're going to give up a little bit on the gray thing, just to be more effective with our time, rather than a gray thing, efficiency thing. I'm hoping to get back to that someday, but we're not there yet.

0:10:29 - Cal
The infrastructure has got to be there first, but yeah, and two things you touched on there, or two things I'm going to expand on just a little bit. Your physical and mental health is so important Because when we talk about farms, we talk about farms being profitable so they can be sustainable. When we talk about farms, we talk about farms being profitable so they can be sustainable. The other side of that is, if you're wearing down yourself because you're burning the candle at both ends, it's not going to be sustainable long term for your body, for your mental health. So you've got to do what works for you.

And the reason I'm harping on this just a little bit I feel like we're all the time saying do daily moves. But really, what is your context and what are you doing? You don't have to go crazy and just work yourself raw, just doing daily moves. There's other ways to manage and you don't want to leave them there too long. So you're doing rotational overgrazing, but at the end of the day, a little bit of rotational overgrazing is better than overgrazing a whole place.

0:11:28 - Kody
Absolutely. Yeah, we're still seeing a lot of the benefits we were when we were moving around every day. But yeah, like, if you have the time to move them daily, I won't argue with anyone on that. Yep, yep.

0:11:40 - Cal
Now you talked about, you would love to get down to where you've got five-acre pastures and then subdivide them as you move them. I assume that's a long-term plan and as you work towards it, how are you putting those in and planning those?

0:11:55 - Kody
Yeah, so we've converted some ground out of row crop that doesn't have any perimeter fences around it, or it's a proportion of a larger row crop field, so there's a perimeter around the whole farm but'm trying to break it up so we're adding hide pinball in. We've been playing around some of the timeless fence posts, not to give them a plug or anything, it's just that seems to work well with the sheep. We're gonna run some three to five strand hide pencils testing to see what we can keep them in with inside of a place. We're getting down to three, three strands. I've got a couple spots out in the middle where there's no fence for a mile, half two miles, where we've got some five strand stuff just to make sure it's a little more beefed up, and that's actually where my sheep are currently sitting on a piece. I'm going to plant the corn, hopefully when it stops raining here. I don't want to say that out loud because we went through a drought last year, but yes but yeah, that's what we've been doing.

You know, weekends or winter time, I do a lot of fence work when we're not in the field or not as busy at work at the co-op.

0:12:47 - Cal
But yeah, now one thing you mentioned there. So you can get them down to about three strands and you've got them in this piece. That's a little bit further and you've built a little beefier fence there. Five strands Are you keeping your cattle in the same area or are you managing those as two separate birds' flocks?

0:13:07 - Kody
Currently so on the farm I live on. There's a 150-acre farm that I live on. It's actually right by 10 acres in city limits of Monroe City and then there's 140 acres outside of city limits. The sheep and the cows work together on that farm. We have another 190 acres down the road that has been row crops since. These sheep are the first livestock on that farm. Since the 1970s they used to bring hogs over to it. This is the first year we've had livestock back on it, so I haven't brought cows over. My grandpa's still a little skeptical. On the whole, there's a row crop farm, there's a livestock farm. That can't be both, even though he grew up on the yeah, the duo farm.

But he's coming around to the idea I I think that five strands beefed up enough I would be pretty comfortable running cattle in it, especially as long as it's hot and there's floors in front of them. Yeah, to this point we haven't taken any cattle over there. I think I finished building that fence right around that winter. It's relatively new.

0:14:01 - Cal
As you're building these fences and stuff, what are you doing for water?

0:14:07 - Kody
That's another reason we take sheep. On a lot of farms we don't have the cattle. I've got some hay, old hay wagons that we've got tanks on, so I can haul the wagon out to the field. Sheep obviously have a lot lower water requirement so while we're converting these, some of these row crop pieces or fencing off these row crop pieces, I it's a lot easier on me by having the lower water need by the sheep. If I was trying to keep water in front of cows this time of year when the temperature's picking up, I'd be chasing them constantly. Some of the other farms we had put some wells in trying to run pipelines where we got active gains from the row crop down for the livestock while we're grazing cover crops. But yeah, long term we'd hope to have a well or a pond or some kind of a water source that we can pump from.

0:14:48 - Cal
Right, but having a portable water there for sheep, like you mentioned, is so much easier than if you were doing it for your cattle, and that's a great way to get started on a place. If you don't have a good water source, you can bring water to sheep and you mentioned right now about 230 ewes. How much water are you having? To take water every day, or you have a big enough tank. It's once a week.

0:15:11 - Kody
Yeah, I think last summer I had a big tank in front of them, I'm trying to think so I was grazing some sort of today and sun him and sun flowers behind some wheat on one farm. I want to say I filled it up every two to three weeks and we actually had 340 ewes in that group. Before the drought last year we culled down a little bit just to make sure we had plenty of winter feed. It was probably every two weeks that I was feeding them and it was drought conditions. It was 95 degrees, they had shade. It was a rougher farm, a rolling farm, so there were some tree covers so they weren't out in the sun all day. But thousand gallon tank over, I want to say a two week period is what we're getting at.

So the it was pretty pleasant to fill up and drag around. There's just kind of drug it from one paddock to the next. I think we were doing four or five day moves on that particular farm just because it didn't have any infrastructure.

Yeah it, the sheep really fit some of those farms that don't have infrastructure well because you, as long as you can keep them in a fence, or building up enough of a temporary fence to keep them in, you can get livestock impact on places that most people wouldn't let you bring cows to. They seem to feel a little more comfortable with sheep being out. There is what I noticed from some of my landlords go on that topic.

0:16:16 - Cal
Just a little bit more on amusing. I have that I keep thinking how to figure this out. I see all everyone around here has got cattle and I look at those pastures. I'm like sheep could get some benefit out there and could help them with some weed control and stuff and I've tried to think how I could structure a lease just for sheep grazing on those places. Of course you got to be very aware and convince the landowner, the cattle person, that you're not taking forage away from their cattle. So I haven't figured that out. If anyone out there in listener land knows or is doing that, I'd love to hear more.

0:16:54 - Kody
You might talk Greg Christensen up. He's out by Lacey in Kansas. I don't remember the exact town. My brother-in-law used to live out there. He's a Grandview Livestock on YouTube, I think he does.

0:17:03 - Cal
Yes, I watch his channel sometimes.

0:17:05 - Kody
He does some of that. He takes some sheep on some farms that other people run a cattle on to clean up sheep.

0:17:10 - Cal
He may have goats as well, but he'd be wanting to talk to you about that I think I've seen on him, or I've seen the goats portion of it, and goats, I think, is a little bit easier argument Because goats can go into brush and change the looks of that when cattle are not getting into the brush. So yeah, but that's interesting. I'll have to look. I know I watch him on YouTube sometimes.

0:17:32 - Kody
Yep.

0:17:33 - Cal
Yeah, yeah, let's talk a little bit more about your sheep. We're in the middle of lambing right now, so it's on top of my mind Sheep I'm trying to figure out more about it. When do you lamb them and how do you manage during lambing? Because for me that's always an issue. Now I'm trying to do daily moves. I've slacked off of that more during lambing and, in full transparency, I don't do daily moves with my sheep all the time, but when I move them up close to the house for lambing, I start tightening a rotation up and moving them more often. I have to be careful about lambs bonding with their moms.

0:18:14 - Kody
Yep, that's one thing I was going to say. I've struggled with a little bit this spring. Just like I said, coming out of a drought, I've been trying to rest some of our perennial pastures, so I took them out to some rye that doesn't have any fence around it, started lambing on the rye and moving the sheep daily to every two days depending on the paddock size. I've had some bonding issues. I would so partially talking about those five to five acre paddocks in the future, as far as wanting to do that, I'd like to be able to do more of a drift lambing system to where every two or three days you bring them up from the rear so they don't really have time to bond with their mom.

Oh yeah, I'm not there yet. I'm just talking from other guys that are doing more of a system like that and then get back whenever you're through lambing, get back into that tighter rotation as far as pair light management and grass management goes. But yeah, so late I'm lambing. I'm right in the middle of lambing myself right now. I just moved them into a 24 acre piece that was stockpiled summer annuals last year. He's got some volunteer wheat and stuff coming up.

And just for that reason, let the sheep dampen down, have a chance to rebond with their moms. I'm hoping to keep them in there for a week or two before I take them back home to some other cover drop ground. But that is one. Yeah, I've done. I've always moved them pretty frequently with lambing. I think that's one change I'm going to make. After the last two to three years I've had a few more bottle lambs than I think.

0:19:29 - Cal
I should be having. I've been there.

0:19:31 - Kody
Bottle lambs are cute, but yeah.

0:19:33 - Cal
They are so much work.

0:19:35 - Kody
They're high maintenance yeah.

0:19:36 - Cal
Yeah, they're cute for the first 12 hours.

0:19:39 - Kody
Yep. And then I've got some in my yard and any time I crack the door they come running because they think it's time to feed Been there completely agree.

0:19:48 - Cal
Now with your lambing, are you doing any tagging or working of your lambs, or when do you do any type of work with them?

0:19:57 - Kody
I don't currently. It's the same reason I try to keep my hands off as much as possible through this window. Sure, if I was running a purebred operation I couldn't do what I do. We're just a commercial flock. But no, I try to be as hands off as much as possible. You get closer to that August window, I'll start peeling off some of the bigger ram lambs and probably do it August, September. We start weaning all the ram lambs off. We don't we don't dock tail, we don't castrate. I'm a pretty lazy sheep farmer. I say, if I can find a low-maintenance way to do stuff, yeah, I'm all about it.

0:20:28 - Cal
I want to help you out there, cody, you're efficient.

0:20:32 - Kody
Yes, yeah.

0:20:33 - Cal
Because efficiency is laziness with good PR.

0:20:36 - Kody
That is true? Yeah, I'll roll with that next time someone asks me.

0:20:43 - Cal
Right, you're an efficient farmer and I do the same thing. Granted, if I was running registered animals, I'd have to do something different. But very low maintenance, hands off. Except one thing I have, or one issue I have I try and raise my own rams, yep, and then I want to be careful, because I want rams that are twins or triplets and not singles, and when you're weaning them later, the nicest looking rams are singles.

0:21:10 - Kody
Yeah, and that is one I should have said. I do try to mark. It's like the first 15, 20 ewes that lamb. I try to mark some of the. If they have twins and twin rams, I do try to mark those. I know I've actually got a group like the first 15 ewes that lambed this year. I've got separated off just before I hauled all my sheep over to this other farm They'd already had lambs so I've got them partially separated. So before I regroup everybody back up I will probably put some tags in those, just so I know to pick rams out of that group. Just some of the mob breeding principles. Just, you want to have early maturing ewes, early maturing rams.

0:21:44 - Cal
I really liked that idea and I hadn't even thought about it. I had thought this year I might ear-notch some.

0:21:50 - Kody
Yep.

0:21:50 - Cal
But Like I've mentioned on the podcast, I'm really quick. I can catch them if they're just born, but if they're over like 15 minutes of age actually it's a little bit more I can go probably a couple hours. I can't catch them.

0:22:03 - Kody
They're nimble yeah.

0:22:05 - Cal
And then you don't want to interrupt that bonding period, so I had thought I'd get them in at 24, 48 hours, and you're not some.

And I'll be honest, the efficiency of myself got ahead of me and I didn't get that done. So I've thought about going out there and some ewes that I know are older, that's been in the flock a long time. I'd mark some of those, but I really like your idea of taking those first few, that's lambed, and marking those so you can pick from them, because, like you said said, you want to pick from the early maturing ones the ones that are lambing early in the cycle yep, yeah, so there's definitely some higher fertility going on there, something yeah, talking about your sheep.

What breeds are you working with so?

0:22:52 - Kody
yeah, we're. Currently we're a little bit heavier on easy cares, which are katahdin, dorper and romanovs. They are. They're a little bit woolier than I I like, but they're supposed to be a higher fertility breed. The other ones we run are hopping composite, which they would have came not too far from where you're at kyle from warner okay yeah, so those are wagner.

Either way, it's not very far yeah, down to oklahoma and those've really they're harder to find. I've got a couple contacts that I've got through to you Jeremiah Markway, one that he's raided them for years now and when I first got back in sheep I went down and visited him. They're a really nice flock so I've been pretty pleased with the hopping composite. The rams we run are all hopping.

0:23:38 - Cal
Oh, composite, that's the range we run are all hopping, but oh yeah, I've seen photos of them. I haven't seen them in person, but I've heard good things about them. I've also heard about the easy care sheep and enough.

0:23:44 - Kody
I've looked into it, but I can't find any relatively close to me yeah, the thing like there's nebraska and iowa, I had to go north to find most of those were the hoppings I could go to southern missouri and find. So I'm in the middle of both of them, so I guess it worked out okay. So yeah, but the heat decarers have done pretty decent. I was curious how they'd handle the heat with the wool, but they seem like they've done pretty decent. This summer, as hot as last year was. I was pretty pleased with the way they performed.

0:24:12 - Cal
Oh yeah, and do, do they so they don't shed completely, but do they shed enough that it's okay, or are they carrying full wool?

0:24:23 - Kody
I don't know what breed to compare them to. Their bellies split off pretty deep and it's like halfway up their back it seems like it their. The wool starts there, it goes up. If someone wanted to cheer on I'm sure that would probably benefit them, but they seem like they've handled it decent. Until I have an issue, I'm probably going to just let them. I'm going to delete with the hopping genetics, hoping we get a little bit of our own composite up here.

0:24:41 - Cal
Oh yeah, Just continuing on breeds. I'm talking about your cattle. What kind of breeds are you working with there?

0:24:49 - Kody
Yeah. So my mom's running South Pole Bulls on her operation. Just a solid red lowput animal. It really fit what she's done. My fellow August horseman's kind of beating my head to coriander things, so I've got some coriander.

0:25:01 - Cal
I blame you for that too.

0:25:03 - Kody
Yes, they fit my budget. That's the best part about coriander.

0:25:06 - Cal
Exactly, I agree, yes.

0:25:08 - Kody
Then we're putting obrick bulls on those coriander for our grass bed market. But yeah. Obrick, I think it's A-U-R-B-A-C.

0:25:17 - Cal
It's a French breed. Yes, they're wild type coloration in that they're that brownish with a darker front on them.

0:25:26 - Kody
Yes, I know, when bulls mature they really, with testosterone coming on, they darken up on the front. They look similar to a bison, almost with a coloration pattern. The cows are just a rule. I don't have any cows. We've just got our first batch of calves out of an obrick bull. Hit the ground out of some korean as we've got, we're hoping to keep backcrossing them. Kind of great. I'll eventually do some obricks, just something different. I like weird stuff. Oh yes.

0:25:56 - Cal
So, on those bulls, were you able to get them locally breeder nearby, or did you have to go quite a ways to get them? So one.

0:26:06 - Kody
I've got a. I guess he's six and a half seven years old. I got hooked up with a gentleman that he was the breeder. I don't think he runs them anymore. I think it was Darren Unruh was his name. He seems to know everyone that's got them. He's been a really good resource. I started bouncing questions off of him after I'd reached out to a couple other people and he had a bull out by Kansas City so I was able to get that bull relatively close. And then I have a younger pulled bull that I picked up from Minnesota so I drove a little ways for him.

The horn bull is pretty impressive specimen, I gotta. There's nothing wrong with the pulled one, just the the horn bull that darren had bred, is it? Yeah, if you you look up, if you read any johan weitzman and the the whole inherent fertility and sexual dimorphism, he really shows it. So I'm excited to have him on the farm so hopefully he sticks around for a couple years.

0:26:54 - Cal
I know he know it's getting a little older, but Very good, yeah, hopefully he does what made you go with that breed.

0:27:00 - Kody
I just want a hardier animal that can perform on grass I know it's like the Corey, anything like so they're cheaper to get into but I think having a little bit of that in the background can help on the handle heat that can handle insects and other stressors. We've got a lot of Kentucky 31 fescue up in this area of the country, just like other people do. So we fight a lot of the issues that come along with fescue. The bulls, I think, complement those cows. Well, they come from a region of France that the genetics haven't really been tampered with and they don't feed a lot of grain because it's a mountainous region.

The one fear there was it's a cooler region but they seem like they handle it well. It's southern france, I believe so it I shouldn't say it's completely cool, it's just a higher elevation. But um, last year in the drought that was one of the worst fescue years. I saw a lot of conventional cattle struggling with fescue last year and do like these bull from the quarry and just I won't say it didn't affect them, but they handled it a lot better than some of the other stuff, like even some of my lawns. Conventional cattle, yeah.

0:27:54 - Cal
And that'll be interesting to see how this project goes for you and how they work out for you. I've seen pictures of the breed, I've read a little bit about them, but I've never been next to one Always, and, to be honest, sometimes on those French cattle, not to pick on the French too much, but sometimes those French cattle are a little crazy, they can.

0:28:18 - Kody
Yep, my grandpa on the car side brought in some limousine back in the 80s. I've heard a lot of stories on and there's a reason. We didn't run any continental cattle for a lot of years.

0:28:26 - Cal
Oh yeah, that's true. Now, you mentioned last year that you had grass fed some beef. Did you also grass finish some lambs as well in direct market?

0:28:36 - Kody
Yeah, yes, yep, so we fed I don't remember the number, but yeah. So we sold it at Lake St Louis Farm Market, just testing out see how that would be, and it went a lot better than I expected, for I'm green on that end of it and I got a lot of irons in the fire. So, being I'm fairly organized, but it can always be improved it. But yeah, we marketed eight, eight to eight to twelve lambs through there in addition to some of the cattle we were selling and it. I was pretty pleased with the reception of land. There's a lot of younger people my age that they didn't grow up in a house eating lamb but they were trying it and they kept coming back. Especially they'd test out ground land and then they would venture into some lamb chops or some leg steaks or something and seemed to do pretty decent every time I had lamb. But it didn't last very long.

0:29:20 - Cal
So, oh, yeah, a nice surprise. And one thing you mentioned there sounds like you were selling it by the cut as well yes, yeah.

0:29:27 - Kody
So we, we did some. We did a couple whole lambs, but for the majority it was by the cut. Down to lake st louis we we sold quite a few whole beefs, half beefs, the lamb, for the most part was by the cut, but yeah.

0:29:40 - Cal
And you mentioned a lot of irons in the fire, so you're not doing that so much now. Do you plan on doing some later on Yep and it is something we want to continue to do.

0:29:52 - Kody
We're actually working with Barnador to get an online website. I'd like to do drop sites and take some stuff down there. It's just a nice little site. And come to the farm. It's just fitting it into the schedule.

Currently, like I said, the row crop site and we picked up some more pasture ground this year that we weren't really expecting Been pretty fortunate. We've had some older neighbors retire, wanting to slow down and just giving us some opportunities. So I want to make sure I do a good job on that. So I had to let something go and being down there every Saturday that I get a lot of work done on Saturday mornings and when I'm sitting at the farmer's market it doesn't happen always, yeah, but it is something I want to get back into because I enjoy talking to people from the city. There's a disconnect from the rural areas to the city. The more we can tell our story and get on the same page with them. That's the best thing we can do as far as PR and ag, and I don't care if it's conventional or regenerative, but we've got to be our own voices in that spectrum.

0:30:41 - Cal
But yeah, yeah, now just to continue on that. Working in an education system for a number of years, I used to always tell them if we're not out saying good things about ourselves, no one else is going to say them for us. We have to get out there and say those good things, form those connections, because a lot of times there's some negativity that comes and negativity gets spread so much easier than the positive stuff. But we've got to be out there saying it. We've got to be meeting the public, building those relationships and connecting them. Back to the farm.

0:31:16 - Kody
Yeah, absolutely. Because, yeah, like you said, no one's going to do it for us if we don't do it. And there's so few farmers on the land anymore, We've got to rebuild those bridges. I know my in-laws are pretty involved in a lot of organizations Farm Bureau and National Pork Producers and stuff.

That's one thing they've done a really good job with Kind of. It's probably something I didn't appreciate as much as when I was a kid. You want a farm to hide from people. That's one thing I'm trying to be better at is telling our stories, oh yeah.

0:31:41 - Cal
I think those stories are so important, hence the podcast.

0:31:45 - Kody
Yeah.

0:31:49 - Cal
Anyway, when you mentioned there's got a lot of row crop land, you've got some pasture. Have you worked on converting any of that row crop land into pastures or are you keeping them pretty separate?

0:32:00 - Kody
Yeah, when I was in high school and my dad started this but I've got to give him full credit he always said he was a cattleman stuck in row crop country and I've probably taken that vein. I'm trying to think of the acreage split, but the majority of our ground originally was crop ground. We're really fortunate. We've got four soil types and 550 acres, so we've got some really uniform nice farms.

Oh yeah, and thankfully, like I said, the ancestors picked a pretty good area to settle in. But yeah, so we've been converting some since I was a kid. I'm trying sorry, I'm trying to think of that split. We're somewhere around like 220 acres of that, 550 that we own is in grass now, and before we were probably only somewhere around 160. So my dad started it back when I was in high school and college and then I've done a couple conversions. The last couple years, like 2021, we did another 24 25 acre of cool season fescue, orchard grass and some red clover just some tan grasses. And the last year and a half I've been working on doing some native restoration, just for multiple reasons. Look at that, I'm an eco-nerd on the.

I'd like to have a little bit of what was here back in the day, because the genetics are adapted to our climate, the drought last year I watched my fescue shut off about April 15th to April 20th and I had some Indian grass that had naturally been creeping back in that was just plugging. I'm not saying the yield wasn't reduced on the Indian grass, but I still had something to graze there when the fescue was just done.

0:33:22 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:33:26 - Kody
So that's an area we've been focusing a little more the last couple years and plan on doing some more restorations there.

0:33:29 - Cal
Actually, let's just go ahead and dive into that Cody For our overgrazing section we're going to talk about native restoration and into that Cody For our overgrazing section we're going to talk about native restoration. And since we're already here, let's just dive deeper into it.

0:33:41 - Kody
Yeah, so, like I said, that is something I've been interested in. I've got a friend from college he really I always liked native grass and stuff. Yeah, just spent a lot of time reading about it when I was younger and he's probably one of the sharpest people I know on that. So I would bounce ID questions off of it. And we're always trying to figure out how we can make our pastures more productive without just pumping more fertilizer and more inputs into it. I think a lot of that is getting some native grass, native plants, back in there. So we started with five and a half acres. I put some Eastern game of grass and ended up drilling it. I was going to try to put it through a corn planter. I started with that as my base. We've done some big blue still. This last year I did 13 and a half acres and I was actually walking it last night with my cousin. I think it was eight or nine different species, but Swiss grass, big blue, some pale purple coneflower, a gray-headed coneflower, just getting some forbs back into.

Depending on the conditions, we're in this funny area of the country that we catch. We're flooding out right now. We were in a severe drought last year. We have really hard freezes and then we'll have 80 80 degree days midwinter. So the more diversity I think we get out there in those pastures the better. And, like I said, those natives are just. They've been through it before. They've got 10 000 years of evolution in the area. The kentucky 31 fescue or orchard grass they're not adapted to here. They're good quality forages and they've got their benefits. But going forward I'd eventually get to where we've got about a third of our grass acres in perennial native grasses. Oh yeah.

0:35:08 - Cal
As you think about those native restoration and you've also done some where you've converted some cropland into Kentucky 31 and orchard grass and other stuff Do you prepare the land in a different way or is it basically the same process for both?

0:35:26 - Kody
I'm trying to think. Both times we just drilled into existing crop residue. I play around with no-till quite a bit, going back to the whole iris and the fire. It's just, it's efficient to go across the ground and plant it. So we've got a no-till drill in. The county office has a no-till native seed drill, um going out occasionally. You can burn down with a herbicide or you can graze really hard.

I had an accidental experiment last year with the gamagrass. That worked out really well. At the co-op we had a mix-up and someone treated an entire box of wheat that didn't need to get treated and they were trying to find a spot to get rid of it. So I said I need a nurse crop for this native grass. So we drilled the weed out Dirt. 250, 300 pounds per acre Way, way too high, but we were just trying to burn it up. Then I went in and drilled the gamma grass into it, which in these native seed seedings are.

It's really important to keep the weeds back if it swallows them out. You, rather than taking a one-year establishment, you might push that to a two to three years to actually have an effective stand out there. And in the grazing world every dollar counts. So we really want to get those stands up to snuff as quick as possible. That wheat actually did a really good job. I grazed it three times with my ewe flock in the spring, between March 15th and April 30th, before the gamogras had germinated. And then I got them off of it and the wheat stunted out maybe about 12 inches tall and it suppressed the weeds all the way to August. So I got a pretty decent fan of gamogras underneath that, using it as a nurse crop. They say it wasn't my original plan but we just tweaked it. But I try to cut back on as much chemical as possible. It's a really good tool but I just if I can get away without playing with chemical. I'd like to use nurse crops and some other crops to to get these stands up.

0:37:03 - Cal
But expand upon that. Just a little bit about a nurse crop yeah, what is it and what's the goal there?

0:37:10 - Kody
so a lot of times, like a nurse crop, you would take oats or wheat or something and you would mix it in the grain drill at the same time that you're putting in whatever whether it's a cool season introduced species or cool or warm season native, you'd put it in at the same time.

It's going to germinate during the year and it's going to just help smother weeds, keep those new seedlings from getting beat up, whether it's deer running through or hail or something, it's just, it's a, it's like a nursery. You're taking care of some little baby plants, doing what you can to make sure they get the best start in life, because the better start you get, the better that stand is going to be and the quicker it's going to come online for you. And once you get those plants up, as long as you graze them properly, you use rest. Natives are very sensitive to overgrazing. As long as you're mimicking the bison and moving them every so frequently, you can really abuse them for a short period of time. If you give them the proper rest period on the back end, they're super resilient.

0:38:00 - Cal
So from the time you put you drill them in, you've got your nurse crop and you mentioned just a while ago you were able to graze your sheep through the wheat. I think you said three times before that gamma grass really got started. But once that grass starts coming up, how long before you do any grazing on that?

0:38:18 - Kody
So once it starts coming, and that's part of the reason I was walking mine last night. I'm getting ready to bring sheep back to that farm, so I was seeing what has germinated. I don't want to hit any of these new seedlings. So as far as I'm concerned, like this new stand I've got and that came of grass, I'm taking them to frost. I'm probably going to intercede some milo just for some stockpiled grazing. I don't know whether I'll get much of a stand thick, as some of my stuff is out there currently, but I'll add on occasional add some other species. Try not to hinder the new stand. I'll probably plant some 60 inch milo out there just to add some other winter stockpile feed. But at this point I'm looking at that stand as just whatever it makes me for winter feed. I'll go in there after the first killing frost and then I'll start grazing some stuff off on it, but it's offline for the rest of summer. Yeah.

0:39:01 - Cal
I had suspected that was probably the case and then graze it during dormant season. Will you plan to graze it next year or you baby it a second year?

0:39:10 - Kody
Yeah, I'll probably start grazing it next year. I'll be a little careful making sure. But some of these smaller, younger plants, I don't plan to push it overly hard. The second year. But I will try to get at least two grazings off of it next year if we're getting adequate rain and I can get in and out of it pretty quick.

0:39:37 - Cal
But a lot of times, like if you take care of them the first year, they can go basic, not full production year two, but they're a pretty good chunk of the way there. So yeah, and when you think about your native pasture versus fescue, how does that grazing?

0:39:46 - Kody
differ. So, like I said historically when I was moving, every day you try to leave depending what style of grazing someone will do. I know there's a lot of different ways to graze stuff. There's some total grazing. I tried pushing the grazing on fescue with my sheep and I had some health issues with the sheep, so I've backed off to where I'm leaving a little more residual than most people and that higher density grazing probably are. It just seemed like the sheep didn't handle it as well as cows do but the natives.

Rather than leaving four to six inches of residual, you're probably leaving somewhere closer to eight to 12 inches and, like I said, if you've ever read anything on how bison used to graze, they can pummel it. So you can go in and pummel those grasses, but that's a longer rest period on the back end. If you leave that 12 inches, you can probably crank out a couple of grazings in summer because it's going to respond pretty quick. If you're looking, I'll probably misspeak here, but fescue, the majority of the roots are in the first foot, two feet ether and gamma and indian grass and big blue, some of those you're talking 10 to 16 feet and we've got a hard clay, hard pan up here. I think that's one of the issues we fade in. Our row crop is we took grasses out of this area that had these deep roots that helped us get through those hard pans, and they're adapted to get through there. Our fescue's not really breaking that up as much up in this area.

0:41:00 - Cal
So I've seen those images comparing native roots to these improved variety roots. It's just amazing how deep those native roots go.

0:41:10 - Kody
Yeah and it's yeah, there's. It makes them so resilient, whether burning, harsh grazing or whatever, or whatever's going on, there's a lot of reserve there for those plants to kick it back in and go again, and I did that. I had a couple plugged with gamma grass. I've got a local ecotype. I've been digging and plugging around my farms to help spread those genetics around.

And I had a pretty good clump that I forgot where I did it at, I didn't mark it, and so I had one spot of fescue. I just I had a bunch of lambs in that paddock so I left them there longer than I normally would have last year and I realized afterwards I'm like, oh, that's where that gammer grass is at. I pummeled it. The fescue stunted out because we got so dry the gammer grass, even just a one-year stand it was an established plant that I'd plugged. Immediately ramped up and took off.

0:41:58 - Cal
It was pretty resilient where I thought I killed the thing. It did great. You've talked a little bit about If you hammer it pretty hard, you've got to give it enough rest time. Are you typically trying to give it on native grass twice as long as fescue to recover, or how is that rest period when you think about it?

0:42:16 - Kody
I'd look to watch the wheat tip make a point again.

0:42:18 - Cal
I think Greg Gio talks about that, that's my big thing.

0:42:21 - Kody
I do follow that same principle as far as I don't want to put a time limit to it, because if I graze it hard mid-June it may be ready again in two weeks. So it's, you just got to watch the grass and if it's still showing it's growing below the leaf hasn't pointed back out like it's fully recovered. I you might be a little bit early on that grazing, but I don't want to say four weeks or five weeks because it just depends on the time of year, the rainfall you're getting in the season. I would shut down.

September 15th is the cutoff for us, ahead of a killing froth, because you want to make sure you leave enough stuff, that enough leaf, that you're putting root reserves back in. So that's Northeast Missouri, that's our cutoff. You get animals out of warm season natives at that time to make sure that they're they got adequate fill for winter and then, after you have that killing fr broads, you can dump back in and basically take them back to wherever that stubble height is. The bunch grass stubble height starts at even a little farther from that 12 inches I said earlier, but yeah now, one thing we talk a lot about with fescue is stockpiling it.

0:43:16 - Cal
Yep, do you do some stockpiling of fescue? Can you stockpile native grasses?

0:43:22 - Kody
yeah. So we do stockpile fescue and that's part of the reason we're bringing the natives in. It gets us off of the fescue in a window that it's going to allow me to stockpile better than what I've been doing. It's a big part of it. The cover crops claim our personal operation big in that early winter window. But the native historically people always say they lose quality as they mature out extremely quickly.

One of my friends has done a little bit of testing showing that gamma holds on to nutrients a lot longer than what people thought. He sent off some. There's no, I don't know if there's a whole lot of data on it outside of him saying off forward samples. So it was carrying quite a bit of nutrition into December. Originally people wouldn't have thought they did and I got to say I noticed my sheep when I dumped them in. That's one of the first things, that is, the sheep and a couple of Koreanas that were out there with them. They went right to that game and patch and started taking it down. Where we had some really burnt up stuff out of the drought last year, they found the natives pretty quick.

0:44:15 - Cal
Oh yeah, I'm not really sure. On the gamma grass range, I know my dad had read something about it and we've talked about trying to establish just a little bit, see what it does here. I think I'm a little west of where the normal range is but to be honest, I'm not sure I could identify it if I walked out in the pasture. I'm just not familiar with it.

0:44:37 - Kody
Yeah, once you see it and it almost I don't want to say it looks exactly like Jonathan grass, but it would have some similarities to Jonathan grass or shatter cane, starting out young. It's in the corn family, gamma grasses, so it's got a lot of similarities as far as leaf structure. It's obviously smaller but, yeah, I'd say your area, oklahoma, there probably were some varieties down there or some ecotypes that would arrange there, I think I don't want to misspeak on here, but I know there's a couple southern, yeah, oklahoma, texas. There's some ecotypes that come from that region.

0:45:06 - Cal
So but yeah, I know we've talked about it and it's always been something I got to research. I got to look at Dale Strickler's book, see what it says.

0:45:15 - Kody
Yeah, that's a good one, and I haven't done it yet.

And that's one thing. With the native sablifera, I talked to Dale quite a bit before I did the damagrass because I'm one of the big gurus on it, and he told me to inoculate the seed and I can't think of the name of the stuff I used, but I got it through him. I did inoculate the native seed because they have obviously being taken stuff out of ground. The microbial community isn't what prairie is, so that really is supposed to help that initial establishment period. And I think in his book he's got a side-by-side in it of stuff that he inoculated and didn't inoculate. On Gamma Grass and I will, for what I see from mine I didn't leave a strip that I didn't inoculate. I just inoculated it all. But I'm pretty pleased compared to some other establishments I've seen in my area.

0:45:55 - Cal
Oh, very good, yeah, my dad will see something or I'll see something. So we're always talking about something else we got to try, and sometimes I'm like let's just put the brakes on and just do what we're doing. But I know we've talked a lot about gamma grass and seeing what it does here yeah, we don't most of our land here.

My dad's place is all improved varieties it's it's not any natives. Most of my lease land there is natives it A lot of broom sedge and a lot of just Johnson grass. So I graze a lot of that.

0:46:31 - Kody
Yep, I don't have any Johnson grass and I don't. It looks like it can pour on some tonnage, but I'm a little bit scared of the south, so I'm glad it's not something I had to face yet.

0:46:40 - Cal
It is Right now. It's one of my favorite grasses. It gets late summer, that patch of Johnson grass. One place I have, like the north half of the property, is Johnson grass mainly, and I can graze that as hard as I want and doing my rotations, and before I even realize it I'm ready to go back there. It's amazing how much foliage it'll put out there for you. Of course you've got to be very careful about grazing it and for the most part I've not had any trouble. And I say for the most part, I haven't had any trouble. But I grew up and my dad had trouble grazing ginseng grass and we lost some cows. That's always in the back of my mind because I'm too poor to lose cows.

0:47:28 - Kody
I hear they're really expensive to replace right now.

0:47:31 - Cal
They are. Yes, Cody. It is time for us to move on to our famous four questions. Sponsored by Ken Cove Farm Fence.

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0:49:00 - Kody
Yeah, that's. I read a lot of old journals just about, so I don't know if it's a grazing grass resource necessarily, but I'd like to see what the ecological context of our area was pre-settlement.

That's the template. I think it's never going to be like it was, but if I can mimic some of those systems, my great thing. I had some of the old louis clark journals and there's some others from my area you can find and then anything from wendell berry it's he's a big gray and writer, I can't say it necessarily grazing grass again, but he's all about community and bringing stuff back to the farm. So I really enjoy reading his stuff as well.

0:49:31 - Cal
I need to read his work, because his work gets brought up and I haven't read it and it's really a lack on my part. I need to read some of that.

0:49:41 - Kody
Yeah, I recommend it. Unsettling of America was written in the 70s and and he's called what's happened in the last 50 years pretty. Yeah. That book forecasts a lot of what happened in agriculture and rural areas. I'd recommend it.

0:49:55 - Cal
Cody. Our second question what is your favorite tool for the farm?

0:50:00 - Kody
Definitely a side-by-side. So again, I'm an efficient farmer. So I like getting places fast and without walking as much as possible. So I've done a lot of walking as a kid and I really enjoy the gator that we got on the farm.

0:50:13 - Cal
I'm about to transition. I do most of my setting up fences and stuff by walking, but I've got a knee that has decided that it wants to hurt once in a while, so I'm about to transition to a side-by-side or a four-wheeler to put up fences.

0:50:30 - Kody
Yep, I've been pretty stubborn for a lot of years, and after we finally got one, I'm not looking back, oh yeah, I keep pricing them and prices scare me.

0:50:39 - Cal
I haven't jumped on anything and of course, I'm always looking on Facebook Marketplace for a bargain. Yes, and my wife is usually quick to say you know how to fix that and sadly my problem is I'm like no, but I think I can figure it out.

0:50:53 - Kody
Yep, yep, Save a couple thousand dollars. You can do a lot of research on YouTube.

0:50:58 - Cal
Exactly yeah. Our next question, cody what would you tell someone just getting started?

0:51:04 - Kody
Yeah, get involved with some local farmers that are doing it, or find someone. Maybe, if you have to drive an hour or two, bounce ideas off of guys that have been doing it, because if they can save you some headache mistakes I've had a lot of guys that have helped me keep from making mistakes and I made a lot of mistakes that I've hopefully been able to help other people not made. Network wise, I would definitely network and then don't be scared to jump in and try it. Small scale is still a great learning opportunity. Don't get yourself hung out, but just go out there and try it. You need more people on the land.

0:51:32 - Cal
I think all that's great advice building that network, figuring out people in your area. Go to conferences so you can find who they are. Because I went and listened to Alejandro Carrillo just a couple months ago and I met someone two, I was gonna say two miles. He's not, he's, he would be six miles from me. I'm like I didn't even know you were there where you been hiding yep, it's amazing what kind of people come out of the way.

0:51:58 - Kody
You start doing something that's different with people that are a lot closer to you have been doing it for quite a while, but you never knew it because they were either too scared to talk about it or they were just in their own little area doing it.

0:52:09 - Cal
Or out of the way where you don't go. Yeah, so get out there and network. And then I love the advice of getting started. Nothing gets finished if you don't start. Yep, yep.

0:52:22 - Kody
Just get the ball rolling. That's the big one.

0:52:25 - Cal
And lastly, Cody, where can others find out more about you?

0:52:28 - Kody
Yeah, so I'm on most social media. I'm on TikTok and X now, I guess, instead of Twitter. I think it's Florida Grazers my handle. On both of those I got cows and sheep. I thought that was a cute name or whatever. And then I'm on Facebook it's just Cody Carr, and Instagram is Carr Family Farms, so I like to throw a bunch of pictures of the farm, my kid being ornery on the farm while I'm there.

0:52:49 - Cal
Oh, very good.

0:52:51 - Kody
But yep, that's probably the easiest place to find me and yep, if anyone's ever got any questions, I'll be happy to tell them how I've messed stuff up before.

0:52:59 - Cal
Wonderful, Cody. We'll put those links in our show notes and we really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today.

0:53:05 - Kody
Yeah, thank you, Kyle, for having me. This has been pretty fun. Like I said, I've enjoyed listening for a while, so I appreciate you reaching out and having me on.

0:53:12 - Cal
Wonderful. I appreciate you listening and I've enjoyed the conversation. Thank you, I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I know I did. Thank you for listening and if you found something useful, please share it. Share it on your social media. Tell your friends, get the word out about the podcast. Helps us grow.

If you happen to be a grass farmer and you'd like to share about your journey, go to grazinggrasscom and click on Be Our Guest. Fill out the form and I'll be in touch. We appreciate your support by sharing our episodes and telling your friends about it. You can also support our show by buying our merch. We get a little bit back from that. Another way to support the show is by becoming a Grazing Grass Insider. Grazing Grass Insiders enjoy bonus content, monthly Zooms and discounts. You can visit the website grazinggrasscom, click on support and they'll have the links there. Also, if you haven't left us a review, please do. It really helps us, as people are searching for podcasts and I was just checking them and we do not have very many reviews for 2024. So if you haven't left us a review, please do. Until next time, keep on grazing grass.

Transcribed by https://podium.page