Grazing Grass Podcast sharing Regenerative Ag Stories

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0:00:00 - Cal
Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast, episode 112. You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, cal Hartage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenerative Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy-to-follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg slash grazing. Nobleorg slash grazing it's nobleorg forward slash grazing.

On today's episode we have Eli Mack and you're like what I've heard that name before. Eli was on the podcast for episode five and then episode 111. So just last Wednesday he was on and we're doing something a little bit different for today's Friday episode. Rather than just me, I asked Eli to come on and share about what he uses the fencing equipment he uses on his farm and to expand into Kiwi Tech. Eli has his farm Mack Farms. He also works for Ken Cove Farm Fence, which is a supporter of the Grazing Grass podcast and grazers everywhere, so I've asked him to come on, share what he's using and then we get into Kiwi Tech. I think it's a really informative episode. I really gained some stuff from Kiwi Tech because I was curious about it and I may order me some to try and see how it goes. Anyway, I think it's a nice episode.

Talk about someone else and really taking a deep dive into their his fencing program and what King Cove offers along that line his fencing program and what King Cove offers along that line. I told you a couple weeks ago we were going to get into livestock coat color genetics and we still are. I've just pushed that back just a little bit. I did tell you it would be the next episode. I apologize, I changed my schedule up. It is coming up, though. Enough of that, let's talk to Eli. Eli, we want to welcome back to the podcast. For today's episode we're doing something a little bit different. We asked you to come back on talk about fencing that you're using on your farm as well as what Ken Cove offers. So let's just jump right into it and for everyone out there listening, if you didn't catch Wednesday's episode where we talked with Eli about what's happened on his farm since the original episode five that aired in November of 2020, go back and listen to those episodes and then come catch us here.

0:03:43 - Eli
Yes, sir, always a pleasure to be on with you. Any chance I get to sit down and chat with you, I'm going to take it.

0:03:49 - Cal
Let's jump into your fencing, Eli. What equipment do you use on Mack Farms?

0:03:55 - Eli
Sure, over the past couple of years I've put up a few high tensile perimeters, but not even the whole farm has a hard exterior perimeter. Some of it is still just twine around the outskirts. And then everything interior is twine soft fence, temporary interior fencing, paddock divisions. What I started doing because I've been planting a lot of trees along my long paddock divisions that I know are staying in place for good. So to protect them I've used our braided twine like four strands to keep the cows and the sheep both out of them while they're growing, and usually a one inch or an inch and a quarter fiberglass rod, or sucker rod as we call it, at the ends is strong enough to anchor four strands of twine no big deal. So those I've used to mark the edges of my paddock stretches and then, if I do any divisions of those paddocks, probably for the last year or two, my weapon of choice has been the kiwi tech spool. Kiwi tech stuff is all pretty modular. You can piece it together and use it how you want it. A couple different, different ways. I choose to use it in simple form, which is just that spool with a click in handle. It just snaps in and you give it like a hula hoop motion and it winds up. For me it's just that's lightweight. It's super easy to carry and move from one site to the other. The other thing for me my paddocks are usually pretty pretty tight and small, because we're going for heavy impact and then move on, so I'm usually not stretching out more than 100 or 150 feet at one time. So it's not like I need a whole quarter mile reel like we normally do for the geared reels. So not having geared is not an issue for those orbital reels and not having a whole lot of twine isn't a big deal either. Riddle reels and not having a whole lot of twine isn't a big deal either, and we can share some links if we needed to give people an idea what that looks like, or I can put some videos up on my Instagram or whatever. But those are just arm powered. The KiwiTech stuff does have a gearbox as a central hub that you can get if you want to build something that's more like a reel, and that gearbox is actually four to one, not just three to one like the typical reels. So that's what I use for twine and for my quote reels.

I do like our Kencove braided twine. The braid gives it the additional strength I don't really have any snapping or breakage and the mixed metal it's got six strands of stainless steel and 310 copper and that actually gives it a significant conductivity advantage over just stainless steel. So I'm a big fan of that. I always tie off with a Zamer handle, or item code is GPZ is what we call them A little plastic handle, and I love them because they conduct the whole way through. There's a conductive hook but then right inside that there's an insulated hook. If you need to go adjust something you can just dead end it so that you're not shocking yourself while you're fixing your line or whatever. They're also lightweight, so they make a great companion with those really small, minimalistic KiwiTec spools.

And then my other favorites I know everybody in our business really likes the O'Brien step-in posts. I'm a fan of those. I've also used a lot of the gray SunGuard posts with the built-in clips. I think those are different versions of them. I think there's only one US manufacturer of them and I think they're to be discontinued, unfortunately. So I think we have our last shipment at Ken Cove as we're making this podcast episode, I believe, but then after that I think they're going to be hard to find. Your tractor supplies and stuff will probably sell similar step-in posts but they're not from the same source and not necessarily the same strength as far as the clips are concerned. But I do those because you can use that top clip to clip into another post and make a really quick makeshift brace post for your twine. That is usually what my daily setup looks like Braided twine, paddock divisions, braided twine on KiwiTex pools and then O'Brien step-in post for line post, fiberglass sun guard post for the braces.

0:08:11 - Cal
Oh yeah, very good. There's a couple of things I want to dive in there. But before we dive into it, what kind of energizer do you have that's powering all of them? That's a good question, and we'll start there and work out.

0:08:22 - Eli
Yeah, I have a couple of different scenarios right now. Question and we'll start there and work out. Yeah, I have a couple of different scenarios right now. I have a six joule remote energizer in the barn that powers what would be that hard perimeter fence that I built with high tensile. It would be now what today is considered a power wizard brand. Back when I bought it it was a Kenco brand, but now we've transitioned all those models to just be power Wizard with the manufacturer. They're good units, especially the remote ones. I'm a big fan of that. So typically your 6 joule and your 13 joule you can get with remote capabilities.

I have sheep on a remote property that are in electric netting and for them I use the SpeedRite 1 joule solar all-in-one. With that you can pretty comfortably charge up to four nets at one time, because that's usually our recommendation is an output joule per mile of fence or at least a quarter joule for every electric net that you're looking to add on to your system. And then right now, the sheep at the home farm. I'm still trying to get their cooperation with electric fencing. So they're in netting and I have a Speedrite dual purpose 3 Joule on them and it's running off of a 12 volt battery just because I want to make sure that 3 Joule is pushing through all four nets nice and strong. I'll swap out batteries and recharge them as I need to, but that definitely keeps those nets hot for the sheep. So between the three, depending where I'm at, it's one of the three.

0:09:52 - Cal
On the on your Energizer at the main place with the remote. I love the remote. I had a StayFix with the remote Wonderful, of course that's SpeedRite now, except I've moved away from the speed right energizers so I no longer have that remote control capability and I miss it. I love the Xamarin handles, except I go over. I had a heifer get on a neighbor's pasture. I'm still shocked why she did. But I go over and I'd never met him.

He bought this land last fall and they'd been working. He's got a few cows. But I go over and I'd never met him. He bought this land last fall and they'd been working. He's got a few cows. So I met him and we took, we got her back over there and then I said, hey, come over, we'll go look at my cattle and what I'm doing. And we went over and I said so this fence is going to be really hot. And I put my remote on there to see the voltage and I was running 0.0. I To see the voltage. I was running 0.0. I was like I got a problem when I checked. I forgot to move that zammer hook from the non-hot to the hot.

0:10:52 - Eli
I've done that before. I walk out and there's a calf somewhere it's not supposed to be. I'm like now, how did that happen? I get out there and I just forgot to hook up the windows.

0:10:59 - Cal
Right, right, and even though they had to get got out because the fence wasn't hot, they will not go back across it. Yeah on, so I love the zammer hooks. I missed the remote and that was one day. I was like it was another day I was moving a couple reels and I was moving them hot. And I've got little jumpers I use once in a while and I put them on and it's shocking me through that jumper, which means my animals are not getting out, but it also means I don't want to touch them. I really miss my remote that day, I bet.

0:11:35 - Eli
And they just save so much time back and forth too. You can diagnose and fix right in the same spot. No trips back to the Energizer spot. No trips back to the Energizer, I think if you have a paddock of any size.

0:11:49 - Cal
I think it's a must-have. On your other two Energizers, you've got a little portable one-jewel one running and you mentioned they'll run up to four of the nets. What kind of voltage are you getting out of your two chargers?

0:12:01 - Eli
Yeah, for the sheep, for cattle I would say if you're above 3.0, you're probably going to be effective at keeping the cattle in Sheep. I like to be higher than I like to be 5.0 or higher. So with the netting, because there's so much of the conductors wrapped around that monofilament, you're going to naturally have more resistance on a net than you would maybe the braided twine and especially on smooth high tensile wire. So typically if I'm seeing six or seven, point five up to eight, I know that I'm pushing maximum for what multiple nets are going to conduct oh yeah very rarely do I see nines and tens, especially if you have a little bit of vegetation up on the line.

With our electric nets and I think most are this way that very bottom strand is dead so there's no electricity going through it, just so that you're not grounding out. But in the growing season it's pretty common to get some vegetation up on that next line or two. So for me if I'm at seven and eight on those electric nets, I'm pretty happy about that. Six, I'm still effective. Five, I say okay, I can either do some weed whacking work before I set up the next one or I need to adjust something to get better voltage out of it. But with the solar one I typically will see a little bit lower of a reading than the dual purpose run one running off of the battery and that dual purpose is a three joule compared to a one joule. So it is it's pushing a lot compared to the other one.

0:13:34 - Cal
So typically my reading there is a little bit bigger than just the solar all-in-one unit I have a couple of little solar units, just Gallagher that I purchased at the local feed store and they don't have near the output I want. But they work and if I need to throw up a fence real quick and I don't have anything close by, I can do it. I like the idea of a one joule. That'd be much better than these little. I want to say 0.16 jewel one, but it works reasonably well enough as long as the sheaf's got enough grass. They don't pressure my polybraid. If I'm using polybraid, yeah.

0:14:16 - Eli
And they're super handy just to have around. Every now and then you get in a bind, you don't have time to go address the real issue on the fence and you're like man, I know if I hook this handle up we're going to be at like 2.8 and that's not going to be good enough. But if I just leave this line insulated and I hook the solar energizer on it or the little energizer, whatever you have on hand I can at least get up to five or six and call it good until I get through my fence fix.

Sometimes it's the ticket you need to just buy for the day until you have more time to deal with the actual issue.

0:14:48 - Cal
Right, and that's really true Some days. I just need it fixed so I can move on. I'll take care of it later. Ken Cove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass Podcast and grazers everywhere. At Ken Cove Farm Fence they believe there's true value within the community of grazers and land stewards. The results that follow, proper management and monitoring, can change the very world around us. That's why Ken Cove is dedicated to providing an ever-expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant. Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres, ken Cove has everything you need to do it well, from reels to tumblewills, polytwine to electric nets, water valves to water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Ken Cove. They carry brands like Speedrite, o'briens, kiwi Tech, strainrite, jobe and more. Ken Cove is proud to be part of your regenerative journey. Call them today or visit KenCovecom, and be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Ken Cove YouTube channel at Ken Cove Farm Fence for helpful how-to videos and new product releases.

Going on past that, going to your KiwiTech, I had seen KiwiTech on the Kenco website. I want to say a few years ago, probably about the time they added it to their line, and I looked on the website and I was just confused by what to get. I watched a couple videos and I just wasn't sure where to start. And you've already talked about KiwiTech. Just a little bit. Tell us just a touch more about that. And what if someone wanted to try KiwiTech, and why would they want to try it? What would they need to get to try that? Sure?

0:16:39 - Eli
Those are all good questions. The KiwiTech line is resurfacing as new, but it's been around for a while. It was a thing back in the 70s or 80s and Kenco was supplying it. Even then it was all like millimeters. That's coming from New Zealand and Australia. We didn't really have good translation of sizes here at the time, so it was hot on the scene and then it fizzled out. And recently Kenco has picked it back up again the scene and then it fizzled out, and recently Ken Kovas picked it back up again and it's gaining more and more attention. You might've seen it under the name like Spider Fence. Back then it was part of that whole series. Now it's some people still call it that, but it's more so referred to, at least by us, as KiwiTech.

The beauty of KiwiTech is that it's very modular and I don't know if you've ever broken parts on your three-to-one reel. Some parts are pretty easy to get, others are a little bit more difficult. But the KiwiTech you can buy parts replace it. You can buy this kit and decide you want something else and use the parts you have to build the bigger thing. It's like Legos for an adult grazer. It's just. It's beautiful. Yeah, so it can be a little confusing. There's some older videos out there from KiwiTech you know very, you know Kiwi style videos, and there's some others and other languages that are just hard to understand and they all have their own names for things. This is the beef pack or the sheep pack or the carry pack. It's really easy to get confused and all that. So the way we've done it at Kenco is we call them a carry pack, which is a four to one geared winder with a carry rack for step in posts, and KiwiTech has their own line of pieces to make your own step-in posts if you want customizable step-in posts. And then there's the geared winder, which is basically just your reel, a four to one reel with no post rack. And then there's the spools which go on a carry pack, a winder or, like I mentioned at the beginning, just using them as a handheld orbital motion to wind up your twine. From there there are parts and pieces like your standard three to one reel has the guard on the front to keep it from jumping and getting all tangled. Kiwitech kind of uses the pigtail style guard to contain any wires coming in wires coming in. And I guess the point I'm getting to with that is.

Kiwitech gives you the ability to wind up multiple strands at one time with a four to one ratio. So you can do a one strand, two strand or three strand with the KiwiTech pack. If you're doing multi-species grazing or if you're doing sheep grazing and you need multiple strands but you don't want to deal with four separate reels, kiwitech is a legitimate option. It's still pretty lightweight because those spools are nice and compact. You would just buy a different guide that accommodates the multiple strands.

And then the other key feature that I really like about the geared KiwiTech stuff is what we call the chuck. It's like the big slug that you slide on your four to one hub and that's what these fools get seated on. You slide them on there like a cassette disc looking thing and the end is adjustable. You can tighten or loosen how much drag those spools have, which is crucial when you're winding multiple, because if you've ever tried to make your own little contraption before, you'll note that one of them goes tight before the other one and then that one's throwing slack because it's not tight and now you have a big mess so adjustable chuck takes out that whole headache because it allows whatever one goes tight first to just freeze while the other ones are still gathering up twine.

So you can have three strands all coming out of tension at different times and it's just rolling with oh, and then?

the guys who are very efficient with the whole set you'll see using the winder with the post rack, so we would call that a carry pack and they can be paying out wire, grabbing a step in post off the rack, clipping it in and stepping in the ground all in the same motion.

So if you really want to maximize the KiwiTech system, you can do set up and tear down in one pass, instead of I'm going to pay out the wire and then I'm going to come back and put the step in posts in and then when I tear down I'm going to pull all the step in posts and come back and wind them up one at a time, just so they don't get tangled. It really alleviates all that tension. If you practice it you can save a lot of time. You can be very effective. I do think there is a learning curve to it. Even just getting the motion down for using the orbital reel took me about a week. You just have to get that muscle memory in. But once you practice with it and you get the hang of it, you can pick it up and you'll be very effective at your paddock moves.

0:21:35 - Cal
So if you're going to just do the orbit spool, so if you're going to just do the orbit spool, so you need a spool and then you need like a snap in handle to hold it so you can do your spinning. Yeah the spool and we sell the spool.

0:21:50 - Eli
You can get three ways. You can get as a bare spool. It's empty and you can load it with whatever kind of twine you like. That's what I choose to do most of the time. I'll put our bra of twine you like. That's what I choose to do. Most of the time I'll put our braided twine on it, because I'm a big fan. Kiwi Tech does sell it as a half size and a full size, which would be the equivalent of 660 feet or 1320 feet, like our standard reels are, but they use a very thin twine. They call it a tight twist. It's six strands of stainless steel. It's a lot smaller so they can fit a lot more on those really narrow spools. I've used it successfully for probably three seasons now and I'm getting to the point now where, if a sheep goes through it, I'm getting some breaking and I'm just quick tying it together.

I know some guys aren't a fan of that, but the ones that I have the braided twine on I don't have any issues with it breaking. But I can only fit about 500 to 600 feet of braided twine on those spools just because it's thicker and it takes up more space. That pretty much maxes out the spool. The KiwiTech twisted, tight twist 600 feet. There's still a lot of room left on that spool, but with braided tw twine it pretty much takes up the whole thing. Um, and yes, this spool, the snap-in handle, allows you to do the whole orbital thing. The snap-in handle contains an extra peg. If you snap the one off that pops into the spool. You can just pull it out, replace it.

You have another one ready to go oh, okay um, and then these spools all have holes around the rim and they sell what's called a release hook and it's something you can slide down over a three-eighths post, a fiberglass post, lock it in place with one of their little wedges and then it's got two fingers that pop through the outside of those holes to hold the spool in place. And as long as you have that 3-8 post braced, it shouldn't move. I've actually cheated on this and I'll give the listeners an inside scoop on that. All of those holes on the spool are 3-8 diameter and at Ken Cove we sell 3-8 fiberglass posts. We also sell little chunks of 3, three eights for people that want to drill a hole and do an offset and a wooden post.

So instead of I probably shouldn't tell you this, but it's a good tip instead of spending extra money on the very specific item and having to replace it each time with the snap-in handle or the release hook, you can always just slide a three eights up in there, do the whole wind, and what I end up doing is you can picture the spool has flanges. I'll shove the flange into a post a fiberglass post, a sucker rod post and then I'll slide that pin through the outer holes instead of using the release clip. That might be hard to explain, but you'd have to hop on my Instagram and I'll show you what that looks like. But those little chunks of fiberglass are super cheap and it breaks nearly as easily as the release hooks do, so you'll save money. You'll have it forever. So that would be my recommendation for people that want to do the orbital rail style.

0:24:54 - Cal
One thing on those spools I purchased. I think I have two spools and I got it with the I forget what you called it. The poly braid is more visible to the animals so I don't like the idea of the really thin To me. It's good to know you can get it without so you can put that poly braid onto it. Now the other thing you can do the orbital winding of it or you can get those carry cases and I see or carry packs and I see those and you said those also they can carry the posts with them. Is that part of that carry pack? How it puts it?

0:25:33 - Eli
on there. If you get just a winder it'll have a handle like a normal three-to-one one reel is and you're just holding it and winding the carry pack. In place of that holding handle you put the pedestal for the post rack and then your arm kind of rests near the post rack.

You can still have this hand free to wind, but the posts are laying up in the rack above you. You can carry them with you. You can probably fit. I don't know. You can definitely fit 23-8 posts on that rack pretty easily, probably more. It's been a minute since I counted.

0:26:06 - Cal
Oh yeah, interesting. I just with the KiwiTec. It's something I've wanted to try but I haven't been really for sure what I needed to get, for sure to try it. So you've helped me out and hopefully you've helped the listeners out that if they want to try the KiwiTech then go to Kenco and see what they need there.

0:26:27 - Eli
Yeah, and a lot of those components from either just the handheld winder or the carry pack are pretty much the same. It just comes down to how many strands are you trying to use at one time. And then do you want the carry handle or do you want the post rack. Everything else is pretty much the same. You have that four to one geared hub and everything with the Kiwi tech system is pretty much a friction. Fit into that hub. I just use a dead blow hammer and tap it in place until it's snug. Handle gear, winder, chuck guide that's pretty much most of it.

0:27:03 - Cal
Very good, Eli. Is there anything else you use on your farm or anything else about KiwiTech you'd like to add today?

0:27:10 - Eli
They do have some of the water troughs as well here at Kenco's, the KiwiTech water troughs. One of them is the Micro. It's about that big and they say it can water up to 50 head of cattle. Works on your normal pressurized water systems, doesn't require a whole lot of PSI to operate and basically it works off of a flapper diaphragm. The cow comes in looking for water, pushes it down with their nose and that cup fills up and basically they have to hold it down as they're drinking so it's just automatically re-flow. Oh yeah, and it comes with a ground state so you just shove it in the ground like a step-in post and when you paddock you can just yank that thing out and move it with you. It doesn't really work for sheep because sheep's face is too small and they're not putting enough contact pressure on that. Oh, good to know To activate the valves. And then we do have the bigger Python trough and I believe both of those operate off of a one inch poly pipe fitting kind of system. So we do have those as well with the KiwiTech system, kiwitech down at the home headquarters down in New Zealand.

They can do other things. They can do customized ATV or four-wheeler setups. We don't really stock those parts at Kencove, but if that's something that somebody's interested in, we can get that for them. We can get it over here to the US if they want to order something. Or if there are other kits that they see when they're searching KiwiTech stuff, like they also have the Aero posts and things like that that we just don't stock a lot of. We don't sell a lot of them, so we don't dabble in it quite as much, but we can get our hands on those things if people are interested in other products.

Very good Eli. Thank you Yep. In other products yeah, very good Eli. Thank you Yep and Cal. I would encourage anybody that if there's any confusion about KiwiTech stuff or they want to see more, we do have several videos up on the Kencove YouTube channel showing how to assemble those kits, showing how to use them, how to be effective and efficient, all that good stuff. So they can check some out there and even throw some questions up if they still have questions after watching those videos.

0:29:22 - Cal
Oh, wonderful, wonderful, Eli. I appreciate you coming on sharing about what you're using on your farm, as well as expanding upon the KiwiTech stuff today. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, cal. I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I know I did. Thank you for listening and if you found something useful, please share it. Share it on your social media, tell your friends, get the word out about the podcast. Helps us grow.

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