Regenerative Ag Stories on the Grazing Grass Podcast

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0:00:00 - Cal
Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast, episode 111.

0:00:04 - Eli
You have your lane, something that's been given you to run with. You've been blessed with something. Just start where you are, embrace what's around you.

0:00:12 - Cal
You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, cal Hartage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenitive Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy-to-follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg. Slash grazing. It's n-o-b-l-e dot org. Forward slash grazing.

On today's show we have Eli Mack of Mack Farms, and if you've been a longtime listener of the podcast, that name may be familiar to you. Eli joined me on a very early episode of the podcast. In fact, episode five If you've not listened to it, go listen to it Talks about his journey and what he's doing, and that will happen in November of 2020. So here we are three and a half years later and I asked Eli to come back on and share about his journey since then. One thing in particular he was starting his holistic journey and some training there and what's gone on with that since that time. Also, we talk about his farm and how it's expanding and what he's doing there. It's a wonderful episode. Eli is always a wonderful guest, so I hope you enjoy it and if you like this style where we reach back to some of our old guests and bring them on to update us about their progress, let me know we do have August Horseman on a future episode doing the same thing. It's been about three years since he's been on the podcast, so try in a little bit different to bring some of those guests back. I really appreciate Eli coming on episode five. You know at that time my downloads for a month were very few, so I really appreciate him coming on and sharing. He's got lots of knowledge and I think you'll really enjoy it. As we look ahead to next week, we have Steve Kenyon on and that's a really good episode, and the following episode will be August Horseman, ten seconds about my farm.

You've heard me speak about my accidental lambing season and we just sold those lambs. We did something different that we usually don't do. We weaned them and directly sold them. It's the first time we've done that. Actually, I was quite pleased with what we got and how it worked Very low effort on our part. I don't know if we'll do that again, but it worked out this time. So I was pleased with that.

Lambing season's going good. Currently we've got 90 lambs on the ground with a 140% lamb crop. I really was worried about that. Percentage is really lower in the season, in the yeah, lambing season. It's barely been here but we've got 90 lambs on the ground. We had a lot of singles at first but now we're getting a lot of twins. One thing we've been growing the flock so we've been keeping all the ewe lambs, so we have a large percentage of ewe lambs. That causes that number to be decreased. The lambing season is going good.

We also grafted some pecan trees. We had OSU Extension out from Mays County, mike Rose came out and helped us and Tara from Craig County came over and we grafted a few pecan trees. We have done that in the past. I say we very loosely, my dad has done it in the past, but it's been a couple decades and I think the last time we tried it didn't work very good, so we wanted to get someone out here to show us, make sure we were on the right path with that. So we were able to graph a few trees, so we're excited to see how that goes. It was a great, wonderful learning experience and I appreciate Mike and Tara. Enough of that, let's talk to Eli. Eli, we want to welcome you back to the Grazing Grass podcast.

0:05:36 - Eli
Thank you, Cal. I'm happy to be back with you. It's always a good time to talk about some stuff.

So, eli, you were on the podcast for episode 5 I believe that was November of 2020, so it's been a few years and just thought we would touch base with you, see what's happening with you, how things are going on your journey yes, sir, I think you and I both commented because I went back and listened to the original episode to see what all we covered and where we left off, and that way I could jump right in on the on-ramp and you'll probably agree with me. But it's rough hearing your own voice played back to you. I'm not a fan of that. I'm sure you're not a fan of that. I don't know anybody that is, but that's always a rough time.

But, yeah, a lot. There's a lot in that episode that kind of caught my attention. That's just different from where we are now Starting points, versus how we've grown and some things that we've stepped more into and some things that we've stepped out of, so it's been quite the journey here.

0:06:35 - Cal
At that time you were using 20 acres with cattle and sheep, and then I think you had poultry also.

0:06:41 - Eli
Yeah, I think at that time I had some turkeys that I was running and I had some experimental pigs. At this point I've just honed in on the pastured animals the cattle and the sheep. I do poultry off and on and I don't have pigs currently. I just made the context decision. That's not where I fit right now. Maybe one day I get back into it, but for now I'm just sticking with my pasture grazers out, there being the highland cattle and the sheep there's oddball cows in the mix, but still using the same home base. Home farm 20 acres, and then I also purchased an additional 41 acres. That's adjacent to us across the road. It doesn't interlink with our farm, but I can get there if I have to walk. Yeah, I can get there on a four-wheeler. I can take a truck tractor. It's close in proximity, so we're going to make it work, do you manage?

0:07:33 - Cal
that? Did you say 40 acres and then 20 acres? Do you manage that all as one piece? So you're moving cattle and sheep from one property to another as needed. So you're moving cattle and sheep from one property to another as needed Right?

0:07:47 - Eli
Not yet. Just because that new property is landlocked, so we have to develop some hard roads for better access and there's no good water source yet. It's a blank slate.

So that's something we're hoping to address this year is get water established over there. So right now I'm just running a couple head of sheep and a couple head of goats, just a small number that I can haul water over with the four-wheeler. No big deal, check on them all the time, but it would just be a little bit too much of a chore hauling water. Everything over there is uphill Like it's a bowl, a bold hillside, and hauling water, especially in the wintertime, would be difficult. So now it's just sheep and goats until we make some changes.

0:08:30 - Cal
And hauling water to sheep and goats is a lot different than hauling water to cattle. It is.

0:08:35 - Eli
I can satisfy a couple of thirsty mouths with a five-gallon bucket versus needing a whole water tote to keep the cows.

0:08:42 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:08:43 - Eli
It's a big difference.

0:08:47 - Cal
Now. Do you already have a plan in place for how you're going to solve your water issue over there, Considering options?

0:08:52 - Eli
Yeah, I did dig into a couple of different options, but I think for now we're planning to dig out a pond. Like I said, it's a hillside bowl, so there's like this huge funnel right in the middle where all this water is coming into this way and it's wet there all year round. It holds water there all year round. I had a crew out and they did some test digs with me just to look at the composition and they said everything looks good. It should hold water when we dig it out. So that's what we're going to try to do.

We're going to try to collect all that water coming down off the hillside and I like that a little bit better than drilling wells and digging for water here and there, because it's just a natural recycling of the water as opposed to extracting it. And also I know at one point the mine kind of went under that part of our neighborhood and a lot of the neighbor's wells got messed up. So I don't even know what you would get into trying to drill and get a well or hit a water. It's a little bit of a gamble. Right now I'm excited to just do the water catchment with the pond. I think it should hold, I think it'll catch enough water and we'll be in business.

0:09:57 - Cal
With that, having a wet spot and, of course, you're talking about your slopes there sounds like a perfect location for a pond. Now you mentioned mines. What kind of? Is it? Coal mines, or what do you have?

0:10:10 - Eli
Yeah, it's big coal mine country here, big coal mine country here. It's wound down over the past couple of decades but there's still some active mines going on. But it would all be coal business. How deep is your coal?

0:10:24 - Cal
there.

0:10:27 - Eli
That's a good question. I haven't been down there, Cal. If I get down there sometime I'll take my time with you and I'll figure it out, but I don't know, I don't know to be honest with you.

0:10:35 - Cal
I know in our area of Oklahoma we have a lot of coal mining going on here. Actually it is winding down but they dug. One of the properties I use was recently dug and reclaimed, so we're talking 10 years ago. But it's all strip mining here, so it's surface access and I think they have a shallow ribbon of coal about 30, 40 feet deep and then they have another one and I'm going to guess at this at 70 feet. And I think what happened? The area was dug and they harvested that shallow ribbon years, decades ago, like 50s, 60s, and then they came back and they dug that deeper one lately, gotcha, or since 2000. At least that's my understanding. But to be honest, outside of driving over there and marveling at how big those tires are on the dump trucks, I'm a decent sized person at 6'4" and those tires make me look small.

0:11:40 - Eli
You're 6'4", I didn't know that that's pretty tall.

0:11:43 - Cal
Yeah, it's deceiving. I look a lot shorter on video and stuff and, to be honest, I always told everyone I'm 6'4". The doctor would probably say I'm 6'3", but I'm going to stick with that 6'4" and this is a complete tangent. But I'm the runt in my family, are you serious? My dad is 6'6", my brother is 6'9". Now I'm taller than my sister and mom. They're both only 5'9", so I'm taller than them.

0:12:16 - Eli
Wow.

0:12:17 - Cal
That is wild but we take. This is crazy. I take a picture I ought to post a picture on one of the Instagrams maybe my farm account sometime of my family, because when my dad and my brothers in there and my nephews even my nieces, but especially with my nephews, my brother and my dad in there, I look like a small guy and it's just. People would look at it and they would think either I'm small or they're big and I'm just normal size. But people tell me I'm pretty good size.

0:12:51 - Eli
That's wild I'm trying to diet.

0:12:52 - Cal
So that's okay, one of those crazy things. So, anyway, enough on that tangent. So I think that's a great idea about you've got a wet area, a great solution to getting water over there, and water is always a limiting factor whenever we try to use any property. First we ask about fencing and then we're like how are you getting water? Because water is the toughest one.

0:13:18 - Eli
Yeah, yes, it is. So that's what we went with. We're going with a pollen plan. I think we'll be able to pull that off here this year. So that's what we went with. We're going with a pollen plan. I think we'll be able to pull that off here this year.

And that's been, like you said, the biggest limiting factor for me really leveraging the potential for that property, because right now it's just doing the bare minimum and when you're doing small acreage grazing, you have to make use of most of the area that you get, and that's why I sprung on this property, because I'm surrounded by big landowners all around our home farm. These guys do hundreds and hundreds of acres. So this little lot came up for sale and I grabbed it because I wasn't sure if I would ever get the opportunity to have a piece of land close to the home farm like that again, or if in the future it might be somewhere that's 20 minutes away from the home farm, and then that gets a little bit hard logistically.

So this was my one shot, maybe in my lifetime, I don't know, but I had to snag it.

0:14:12 - Cal
Right, yeah, and I think that's excellent that you did in that area. Now you have your cattle and your sheep and a few goats. Are you going to expand on those numbers so you can utilize all that? Is that the plan? Yep, yep, that 40 acres is hopefully going to stretch out those numbers so you can utilize all that. Is that the plan?

0:14:26 - Eli
Yep, yep, that 40 acres is hopefully going to stretch out our grazing season. I would like to use them all as one fluid unit. I will say that sorry, I lost my train of thought there for a second. I started going two different directions. But yeah, so the 40 acres will help me expand and right now the home farm is pretty maxed out. I've got 31 head cattle of various ages and sizes, plus we're lambing. Right now we're at like 20 sheep. So imagine that on 20 acres that's definitely more than your county average of one animal unit per acre. I've been really pushing the limits of the home farm and now we've exceeded it, but I haven't downsized because I know that property is just around the corner. We're almost there.

We're almost there for it. If I were to go out and sell off a bunch to try to stay at capacity, then I'd be cutting myself short right when I'm about to expand. So I'm trying to hold on to everybody. Until we make that move, it's tough, oh yeah.

0:15:27 - Cal
Yeah, but I think that's a good point. If you were to sell out the way prices are going right now, it'd cost so much to bring more in or something. It's great that you have that, but I do think that's good you hold that together and then you're able to utilize that land as soon as you can, and it's so close, so I know you're eager to get that going, so you can Now. I believe you were direct marketing beef and lamb before. Have you continued down that path? Yeah?

0:15:56 - Eli
it was more so on the beef and poultry side. Lamb was in the radar, but not quite there yet, so now my flock is getting to the point where I could start looking at some lamb sales. I might go more the breeder route with the sheep. I haven't drummed up quite the market for lamb like I do with the beef products yet.

Beef I'll still offer poultry, we'll still offer Lamb, might be more so on the breeder stock side, and I did actually bring in a second group of sheep over at that new property and I got into a really nasty parasite issue and I lost a bunch of them.

0:16:33 - Cal
Oh no.

0:16:33 - Eli
And this is a debate and some people will love me for this stance and some people will hate it. But like we're a very hands-off management at Mac Farms and so I don't use any products as far as worms or anything like that, it goes like I want an animal that's going to do it on their own. So you see that parasite issue evolving and you try to position them as best you can, but at the same time I want to see who pulls through that and then go with those genetics. So it definitely whittled down the flock. Like I said, some people are going to hate that answer.

They're going to, they're going to eat me alive, but other people would say that's natural selection doing its thing. So right now I've got a couple of ewes from that group that are left and I'm and I want to observe them over the next year and a half and see how they do. But that was going to be my big sheep expansion. Then I got cut out at the knees there with the parasite load, so yeah, so I started to expand in that direction and had to press pause for a minute.

0:17:32 - Cal
Those parasites can really be an issue. We really struggled with parasites this year and we have not struggled with them in the past. Occasionally we might have something. But our weaned lambs. This year I put them in a paddock that I hold them and I grazed it too short. I knew I did, and then it was wetter in late summer than it's been for a few years and we had a wreck there and those things.

If you're going to doctor them, so what we try and do, we try and doctor them, but then they leave the farm. So we doctor them, get them well, and then they're gone Because we do not want those genetics. But you have to be very proactive about that One that you're like ooh, I better check that one. You better go check it right now or it may be dead later. And that sometimes is a problem with all the irons in the fire too. I get that and that's a tough thing with your highlands. You've got those so you're able to graze them before, after or with. Are you grazing them all together now? Granted, the sheep you were talking about was on the other property, but your home flock. Are you grazing those as a flirt, as Greg Judy likes to call it?

or are they still separated?

0:18:48 - Eli
Yeah, we are together now. We were separate there at the time we recorded that initial podcast. That was another thing that made me just tilt my head and say, wow, I barely remember that. But yeah, the cattle and the sheep all move together now and that really got started. It might've been that following winter, where we were bale grazing just outside the barnyard and that was a high dry spot and I needed to hold them up there for just a little bit longer, and so I forced everybody into the same area and put up electric netting to really keep the containment so that the sheep weren't sneaking out on me. And it was during that time of bale grazing side by side.

I think they both learned that they could tolerate each other and there's no big issue. The sheep still like to go, try to find their own corners of the paddock, but otherwise they move with the cattle, they lamb with the cattle without any issues, and we move all together as one, and that just makes things so much easier. You're minimizing how much fencing you're setting up, how much water, you're moving around, and it's just really the way to go In my context. Somebody else has a different context. That's fine. I really enjoy having them together. It just makes things easier and it's a lot cooler and you get to see those species interact together.

Every now and then I'll come out and there's a cow laying down and there's two lambs playing push around on top of it. Just funny stuff like that you wouldn't otherwise see.

0:20:08 - Cal
I started an experiment last November. I took some newly weaned lambs ewe lambs and I say newly weaned, they were born in May. Sorry, they were born in May and we don't wean our ewe lambs. So when this opportunity came up, what happened was I weaned some heifer calves that I didn't plan on weaning at the time and I thought I've got these heifer calves weaned. I'm going to pull some of those ewe lambs in and that's weaning for them, a stressful time with the goal of them bonding. And I've read a paper I don't even know where I read it, but I read it about for eight weeks, 12 weeks, you hold them in a small pen. They bond together and then you can manage those as a group and those sheep will stay with those cattle and they provide predator control or more. And I moved them up on one of the properties I have had them in there. And then winter got, we got some bad weather, so I changed where I was feeding them and moved them all to another spot. They didn't bond very good. Now I say that they ended up a half mile away from where they were and luckily it was on my dad's land. I got them back in, but they now they're staying where they're supposed to be right now, but I was optimistic. I was going to get a better bonding there and I do think they are bonding a little bit more now. As I go out and unroll hay, cows come over and eat and sheep come over and eat, and I think that makes a difference.

I had some goats in that pen as well, and the goats totally don't care about what anybody else is doing. They are in fact. I'm not moving them or anything. I have them. They're in some woods where I rotated them all through last year and they are hanging out there till I start forcing them to do something else and they'll come over and grab a bite of hay if I feed close enough to the woods. Otherwise they don't even come visit me, which is I don't know. I'm hoping this year to get them all within a couple strands of polywire. See how it goes. Are you using polywire or netting to move your flared?

0:22:30 - Eli
Yeah, with the combined group there at the home farm it's all braided twine and I'll jump into that in just a second. On the other property, the newer property, it's all electric netting, just because it's a little bit more remote. I don't see it out the kitchen window like I do the other ones. So I'm taking a little bit more precautions over there trying to keep them out of the neighbors and stuff. They've done well in the electric netting. I haven't had any predator issues.

I just had somebody message me today. They're asking about sheep. They're like do you have dogs? What do you do to keep predators away? And I'm like I don't know if I'm lucky, I don't know if it's the electric netting. I haven't had any issues over there. The home farm they're in with the cattle and there's enough human activity night and day that predators don't really come in there. At the home farm I haven't gotten the sheep down to just like a single wire like I would with the cattle. Honestly, it's irrelevant for me because I've started planting trees to create some silvopasture effect on all of my normal paddock divisions that I know I'm coming back to and I really want to protect those trees while they're getting established. So I've put up like a semi-permanent fence, but it's all with fiberglass posts and braided electric twine and four strands.

And when that's hot the sheep don't mess with it. The cattle could really care less because one strand is enough for them, but a lot of my routine now has revolved around four strands, just because I want to make sure that they don't touch those trees while they're growing and I do. I use the small KiwiTech reels, like you'll see them in my Instagram videos sometimes, and when I'm doing small acreage it's very tight paddocks like small space, heavy impact, so I'm never unrolling more than 200 feet of twine at a time. I could see where that would be annoying for somebody else, but for me I can string four strands super quick and be done because we're doing very high concentrated areas and with high constant.

You would know this too. It's when you're putting higher pressure or greater area demands on animals like you better make sure the fencing is up to the task. If you choose too small of an area, there's not enough to eat. They're pushing and shoving. Somebody's going to go through the fence eventually. So that's the other reason I'm doing like maximum security right now is because I'm trying to protect the trees, but also I'm pushing the limits of how small our paddock can be at this point.

0:24:55 - Cal
Oh yeah. Yeah, and with your trees, did you? I know Austin that was on the podcast 15 talking about Silvo Pastor. He had some tree protectors that you planted a tree and they grew up through. Did you use any kind of tree protector or do you just have them planted out there?

0:25:18 - Eli
Yeah, austin has a great silvopasture business. If anybody, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. It's a good one. Austin has a business that revolves around that. It's called Trees for Grazers and it's all about establishing trees within working pastures, which can be a task, but they've made a pretty good formula for it. And, yeah, they like to use the tree tubes or tree protectors.

He did hook me up with about 50 of them and I used them on some of the trees that were taken off the best. I really wanted to let them keep going, so I put tubes around them and those are good. Those are good. I would encourage everybody, because that protects them from livestock. It also creates like a little mini greenhouse effect for them, which can be helpful. I've also done a few things here and there. If I have, like the one paddock, I have this little ash tree that's just popping up on its own. It's a volunteer tree out in the middle of a paddock, so I've got my two rows of trees fenced off, oh yeah. And then I got this lone tree that I would really like to keep. So I've actually used scraps of woven wire just to make a cage and I hold that cage up off the ground with fiberglass posts so that it's insulated, it's not contacting the ground.

And then I'll just run one single strand of polywire electric bray around that thing to electrify the cage. That way they don't rub on it. Cattle love to rub my Highland cows especially with their horns and their shaggy hair. They really love to rub. So it's not even always them munching. I'm more concerned about the sheep munching on my trees but the cattle rubbing on them.

So if I can, eliminate both of those things I'm doing good, the cattle rubbing on them. So if I can eliminate both of those things I'm doing good. I have been doing some experimenting too, with no tree protectors, just fencing off, if you can picture this. So like a paddock you've got two lanes, two edges to it, but then I'm actually fencing off another buffer outside that paddock, so maybe it's like a two foot width of no man's land in between paddocks where I've been planting trees but also I've just been letting what's coming up, just come up, like whether it's honey or whatever.

Um, and again I have my four strands of electric on both sides of that to keep them out of there. Um, and I've also found that's where a lot of the wild pollinator species want to pop up. That's my hope. There it can be my tree nursery in these rows and then also it can be promoting pollinator plants that don't get trampled and disturbed all the time by livestock. So I'm really trying to create the pollinator and hedge effect in between my paddocks to hold as much wildlife biodiversity as possible on a small scale.

I'm having fun with it. It's a cool experiment. I'm excited to see where it goes here in the next 10 years. See what comes of it.

0:28:02 - Cal
I love the idea of a hedge fence, of something. I see those pastoral pictures of England or Scotland with their hedgerows and I think wouldn't it be cool to do something like that? And I haven't yet, maybe someday I'll get to it, but that'll be interesting to see how that develops for you and with your tree species. You went in and planted some. What tree species did you go with and why?

0:28:29 - Eli
I did a lot of black locust. I did a lot of black locust. It's a nitrogen fixing tree. They're pretty tough when it comes to starting off. There's not a whole lot that disrupts black locust in our area, especially like something that was stripped and then left go to regrow. A lot of times you'll see black locust popping up there just because it is. It's one of those first species that's yeah, we're going to take this back over. And it's really high in tannins. It's a good natural parasite fodder for animals. So I'm looking forward to feeding some black locusts, especially to the sheep, and so I do a lot of black locusts. Those are doing well. Those are probably the tallest and best trees I have right now.

I've also done hybrid poplars and hybrid willows. They're going to be very quick establishing. They throw a nice shade. You can also use them for fodder. Oh, yeah, they might not be as long-lived as some of the other species you might plant, but if you keep pruning them, either by coppicing or pollarding, cutting them down at the base or cutting them above browse height and letting them re-sprout, that can really extend their life. I also have a lot of wet bottomland, wet soils and wet bottomlands. I have some swampy areas, oh yes, and some of those areas honestly, I'm not even looking to graze as much in the future. But use that spot for wet nursery, for things like black willow and sycamore, and maybe some like red osier, dogwood and arrowwood and things that I already have growing on the farm. Maybe take some live stakes, stick them in there and I can start propagating my own stuff oh yes just take elsewhere.

Um, and anytime I have a tree that comes down that that's a nut bearing tree, I gather up all those nuts and I go chuck them in those hedgerows in between my paddocks, just to even if 2% of them grew into a tree. That would be amazing. Last year we did that, my wife and I. There was a shag shag bark hickory that came down and it was loaded and we gathered them all up and then we just ran around the farm just chucking them everywhere, trying to find places where they would have a head start to start growing before the animals started messing with them. I've also been doing elderberries, sticking elderberry live stakes in those rows too.

Oh okay, really anything. I'm not opposed to it. I think the more diversity you have, the more resilient you are. This year, I'm hoping to incorporate more fruit trees for human use. Oh yes, I'd like to travel with pawpaws, because pawpaws are like the most tropical kind of fruit that we can grow in this northern climate. They're a unique tree, a unique fruit, and I would like to, I'd like to get into that, and I'm saying that having never even eaten a pawpaw. I'm just going on faith on that one. But you know, diversity is the key.

0:31:11 - Cal
Even if you get those growing and you don't eat them, something else will.

0:31:14 - Eli
Absolutely yeah, it's exciting to see how that goes. Yep, and if you get in a tough spot, you can always go hack some of those branches, feed the leaves to the cows, you can go collect those fruits. It just makes you all the more resilient. You have so many more options. When you have diversity and a lot of life just popping out of your land, it's the best case scenario.

0:31:39 - Cal
Oh yes, yeah, one more statement about your cattle. We can move away from your cattle and talk about your trees just a little bit, but one more statement about your cattle before we adjust, just a little bit. You take wonderful pictures on Instagram. I see some of those pictures and I'm like this should be a canvas you can order, I think your bull drinking out of a watering trough and some other pictures. I'm always excited to see what you post, eli, because I think you do a good job. But then some of those pictures are just excellent quality and I haven't showed them to my wife because she'd be like, yeah, I want a picture of that. Or my daughter would Any plans to monetize that? Because that may be a revenue stream for you.

0:32:24 - Eli
Yeah, yeah, it's funny A lot of people comment on that. I make new claims to be a photographer. I'm not a photographer. I have a smartphone with a decent camera and occasionally I find myself in the right place at the right time and I like those moments of the farm and you capture them and other people can appreciate the farm too, even though they're not there.

And we just had conversations this week of getting a website going more so to offer the services like consulting and things like that and the coaching aspect of what we do. But it's also in discussions that we could do some prints of some of those photos so that people could have those unique pieces from the farm and put them in their house or whatever they want to do and just enjoy them as much as we do. Because that's, we get to see that stuff every day and that's quite the blessing. And if we can pass that on to some folks and if we can, like you said, monetize that a little bit for ourselves, that'd be a little bit extra of a trickle coming into the bucket. Yeah, we would like to do that.

0:33:23 - Cal
I know for my parents and I'm even less of a photographer or claim to be one than you claim to be one. I'm even less of a photographer or claim to be one than you claim to be one. I'm terrible, but I have taken a few pictures that I printed off for my parents on canvas for them to hang in their house of our own cattle, which is really really nice just as an individual, rather than having who knows what up there. I've got pictures of our own animals and I really like that and that's just a side bonus that we get to do. One thing you mentioned there was about consulting and helping with that. When we talked to you three and a half years ago, you were starting on your holistic journey you were taking. I don't remember exactly where you were in it, but you were fairly early in that journey. Can you tell us about that journey, how it's gone and what you did?

0:34:19 - Eli
Yeah, absolutely Early on in this whole grazing journey, I knew I wanted to try to do it naturally and stick within those guidelines, and I wanted to manage in a way that I wasn't cutting corners and I could be sure that I was making the right decisions in a way that was going to affect the landscape positively and not negatively. And these are things I want to pass on to next generations. Like planting trees, that's a generational thing.

These aren't just decisions that we make on a basis on a whim, like we need to have some kind of framework for making these decisions, and I came across holistic management through the Savory Institute and that's basically in a nutshell. Holistic management is a decision-making framework to help you deal with the complexity of natural systems and it has a lot to do with grazing and introducing animal into the landscape. And so I started digging into this and I was going through Savory Institute's resources. I read their book, I did some of the online courses that really break it down and they start talking about water cycle and mineral cycle and community dynamics and diversity, like we're talking about, and all those things that play into how you look at an ecosystem, whether it's your backyard or a 20 acre farm or thousand acre ranch like there are ecosystems and there's little micro ecosystems and all of these variables are playing into that. And when we're managing, we're out there doing our thing, making decisions about how we do something, versus doing it this way we're doing and seeing results that maybe we intended for, but probably also causing results that we didn't intend for worse or for better, for better. And so holistic management is really is why is what I jumped into? Because I wanted to know that as I'm managing, as I'm making decisions, moving forward, I can also keep an eye on the unintended things so that I'm not doing anything detrimental to the landscape. I want to make this landscape abundant. I want to make it. Oh yes, I don't want to detract from it. I really want to put myself into it. I don't want to take from the landscape for me. I'd really like to put myself into the landscape and holistic management allowed me to do that.

The journey through that, like I said, read the book, did the online courses and then I became an AP, an accredited professional, through Saver Institute and I worked with my mentor, daniel Griffith. Down in Virginia they run Timshel Wildland. He's a great guy. He has a lot of philosophy around the topics of grazing and wildlife and wild systems and holistic management and everything in between. He's a really interesting guy. He's wrote some books. He was on your podcast. Daniel has a lot.

0:37:09 - Cal
Yeah, episode 17. I just looked that up to remember. But yeah, daniel has a wealth of knowledge and just a lot.

0:37:12 - Eli
Yeah, episode 17. I just looked that up to remember. But yeah, daniel's a wealth of knowledge and just a lot of different perspectives that you can gain from him and listening to what he has to say. He asks questions that nobody else is willing to ask and then even dabbles in answering them, which is sometimes. Sometimes you have people that like to ask questions but they don't really want to throw out their answer, and he does both sometimes, which is good. So I leaned heavily on him. He brought me through my savory journey and now I'm out the other side as an accredited professional where I can teach the principles of holistic management. I can help people.

Hopefully I can help people better understand their own landscape and understand their own context for managing that landscape in a way that creates the quality of life that they want to see, that is hand in hand with the landscape that they're trying to create. Holistic management is a beautiful thing that helps us manage the complexity that's in front of us when we look at a natural landscape.

0:38:08 - Cal
Now, when you consider holistic management, you've got the Savory Institute and you've got is it Holistic Management International and I'm not sure if you can speak to it. What's the difference between the two?

0:38:31 - Eli
realms of the Savory Institute. So I probably shouldn't say because I would just be guessing and lying to somebody. I don't know the difference between, but I know Alan Savory has been working in the holistic management space for decades and decades. This is not new stuff, Like back in the sixties people were getting excited about this.

Of course, some of the literature has been revised and now we have different names for some of those concepts and things like that, but the idea of viewing things holistically hasn't changed. When we look at our world, there's nothing we can point at and single it out and say it's not attached to something else or it doesn't affect something else.

Even within your own family, everything in life is interconnected and we really see that when we look at when we look at nature, it's like pulling on the cobweb and one strand of the cobweb and then you see the whole thing shutter in the sunshine. That's how connected and integrated everything is. Those are the principles that they've been working with for decades at the Savory Institute, so they're quite acquainted and they're the pros and that's why I wanted to get with them, because they know what they're talking about when it oh yeah, and I don't know the difference between the two.

0:39:38 - Cal
I thought I'd need to check into either, or because I've read some of the holistic management. I can't even think the full title of the book, but the holistic management book. Yeah, as you think about someone who's just saying, oh, I should find out more information about this, where would you suggest them go?

0:40:02 - Eli
more information about this. Where would you suggest them go? Yeah, I would send them to Savory website. They have a map laid out of a list of all the APs, at least, but then they also have a map of the hubs. Hubs are a regional center for holistic management and some of those training courses, like Daniel, would be a hub down in Virginia with Robinia Institute that's their hub name. So a lot of that stuff is regional. Sometimes there's gaps between regions, but some of those hub leaders are willing to reach across those gaps and get people the training and education that they need. So save your website would be good. Otherwise, most of us are out there floating around on Instagram, If you know what you're looking for, or at least in the ballpark we're all posting about what we're doing and we're pretty active on social media. And I forgot to mention, too, the ecological monitoring Cal. The EOV is another aspect.

0:40:48 - Cal
Oh yes.

0:40:49 - Eli
I don't know if you want to talk about that now or later, or whatever you want to do. I'll leave that to you to decide.

We can go ahead and go into that, if you're finished with about the hubs and stuff we can talk about the EOV. Sure, eov is a service that a lot of hubs offer not all hubs, but a lot of hubs offer EOV, which is ecological outcome verification, which is the whole data collecting, scientific, technical side of regeneration. We all like to make claims in our Instagram posts about we're a regenerative farm, we do this, that and the other, but how do you really know? How do you know if you're regenerating? How do you know if you're moving forward on the landscape? There might be things you're looking at that tell you that. There might be some other things that you're not paying attention to that tell a different story.

So EOV is a service where we can roll out onto a farm, onto a ranch. We can do some short term monitoring. We can do some long term monitoring, really in-depth stuff, where you're like on your hands and knees, nose to the grass, like pulling grasses apart, looking for certain things Everything from diversity to water cycle, to infiltration, to species identification, wildlife and bugs and insects and manure decomposition and all these things. All the complexity has a place on the rubric. We use a rubric, we use a scorecard that is customized to an eco region. It's not just across the board. United States, that would be that would do nobody any good.

It's all based on eco region, to where we can score your farm accurately based on your eco region and give you feedback on that, so you can actually get a score on your mineral cycle oh man, we're not breaking down our organic matter, what's up with that? And then we can have conversations about how we can go about those things. So EOV is a service that gives you all that information. Just spit out at you and you can pinpoint. This is where we're at on the scale of regeneration, and from year to year we monitor that and you can say, okay, we're moving forward, we're moving forward. Or you know what? I was really lazy in my management last year and it shows in the score. It's kind of accountability. How do you know you're regenerating if you don't ever ask the question, if you don't ever collect the data? You won't. We're all just making claims, and if you want to make those claims, then we should have a way to measure that. So it is the measuring tape for regeneration.

0:43:16 - Cal
Is there a certain time of year that you go in and do the EOV, or can it be done year round and the what you find is adjusted for the season?

0:43:28 - Eli
So we like to do it during the growing season. That can be any time during the grazing season or the growing season. And I would say, when you come out for the base year the year, what do you call it? Baseline You're setting up your baseline year. Oh yeah, whatever time of year you're out there, you should probably come back the same time the next year and the year after.

Keep everything as consistent as possible During the growing season. That's great for the identification part, because things are in full expression. Sometimes we get somewhere and the paddock or the pastures that we're trying to monitor have just been grazed and everything's just like a green stub and you're like, okay, identification is going to be really tricky here. Sometimes you just have to work with that. Or you make a note like hey, this was just grazed, so keep that in mind with the scores, because maybe there's not as much to look at. And the funny thing, cal, is I'm out and about in my own paddock or I'm visiting a farm once you've done eov, because it is a lot of work, it's pretty labor intensive, you're sweating oh yeah you're covered in bugs like it.

It's a good time, but it's a bad time. You know what I mean? Um, right, and when you're out there and you roll onto a farm, it has like a lush, diverse paddock that you have to monitor you. You're almost. Oh, okay, this is going to be. This is going to be a minute.

And then sometimes you roll onto a farm where it's like pretty sparse and it's hurting and you're like, okay, yeah, we can knock this out and out, here we go. And once you have a gauge for that and the work that you're doing, that's how I test myself as I'm walking around my farm. All right, let's look at this paddock. Would this paddock be difficult to do EOV on? Would it be a pain in the butt? Oh, yeah.

Or could I knock this out quickly? And for me sometimes that's all more of a question I need to ask. It'd be like yeah, this paddock could use some work because I think I could make a long-term site here and mark all the data pretty quickly. Or other paddocks where I'm like I don't want to do EOVO here because this would take forever, and so when you're engrossed in that data collection, it's funny to just look around and you get your vision for those kinds of things and you can look around and say, yeah, this paddock, just by the feel of it, is doing pretty good or the contrary, but it's just one of those things. The more you get tuned into it, the more you can see it everywhere you go.

0:45:40 - Cal
Oh yeah, I think having a rubric and qualifying that what you're seeing out there can be really beneficial. The other aspect you mentioned was year after year, you can see what kind of trend you're going, where you're headed. I think those points in time it's so important we take time to go back and look, for example, your podcast from three and a half years ago. Granted, I listened to it. Actually, I read the transcript, I read your portion so I knew where it went. But then I'm looking at my portion thinking, oh dear, and the podcast has really evolved and it's really nice to go back and see that and say, oh, we have evolved. Maybe part of the time I do have a coherent sentence. So it's good to go back and see that you've got some growth, so that eov doing it over time, I could see a lot of benefit from that absolutely even like your podcast example.

0:46:38 - Eli
I listened back to it as well, just to know where we left off, and I was like oh man, I really didn't know anything back then. I feel like I don't know anything now, so I really didn't know what I was doing back then, yeah.

So we need a report card every now and then and we need to know if we're moving the dial on that stuff. It's very important to keep checking up on ourselves and a lot of people. I think this applies through multiple layers of life. But sometimes people are hesitant to start monitoring whether it's EOV or their self or their progress because they feel like that initial report card is not going to be good. And we always tell people like hey, baseline year is a great year to suck. If I could say it bluntly.

0:47:16 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:47:17 - Eli
Because then guess what Next year's scores are going to be all that much better. Don't wait to get the landscape of your farm, the landscape of your mind, the landscape of your skills, your landscape of your career. Don't wait to get all the pieces in place now. Before you start collecting that data, before you start comparing yourself and yourself progress reports, just start now. Just create a baseline. It doesn't matter how bad it is. We're only going to improve unless you're not managing. Well, maybe we move backwards. Yeah, don't be afraid to start, because that's no reason to hold back.

0:47:52 - Cal
But if you do move backwards, you've got some data there that you can work off of and figure out what you should be doing. Just this podcast so many times in Advice to New Farmers, we talk about this. But you've got to get started. You've got to take that first step to get anywhere.

I started this podcast and I'm not saying I know how to do anything now, but I really didn't know how to do it then. But if I'd waited until I was ready, I'd probably still be waiting, I'd probably still be trying to figure it out. There's a lot of benefit to reading, to resources, gathering all this knowledge, but we don't want to get into that analysis, paralysis, stealing a real estate term. We're so knowledgeable and trying to figure it out, but we're afraid to take that first step. The real learning occurs after you get started and that would I would render a guess that the EOV, once you get started, that's going to be so much more beneficial for you and you're going to learn so much than if you're trying to learn everything ahead of time and try and get everything in place. Absolutely All that to say get started.

0:49:02 - Eli
Yes, get started. I have quite a few degrees in my life, even this year, where I'm like, dude, just start. You'll keep getting stuck in preparation. Just get started, just start pushing the cart.

0:49:13 - Cal
Oh yeah.

0:49:14 - Eli
And that first step is oftentimes the hardest, but if you can push through, that momentum takes over.

0:49:22 - Cal
Right. I think I went to the Noble Research Institute's Essentials of Regenerative Grazing and one thing they said that I thought was really good. That kind of relates to this getting started. If we get started for grazing we're doing daily moves, for example, or adaptive. You're doing moves based upon what you need. But if you think about a daily move and you move them and you've got your animals in there too tight and you come back later and they're out of grass, guess what? Change it next time. You've got that feedback. Give them a bigger area. Guess what? Change it next time. You've got that feedback. Give them a bigger area. And conversely, if you're like, oh, they didn't graze this, like I thought they should have reflect upon it Reflection is such an important part and then tighten that rotation up just a little bit. Most of the time.

0:50:18 - Eli
That first step is not going to hurt anything, we just got to take it. Yeah, yeah, that's very true, and I think oftentimes we elevate our position as managers, whether of landscape or livestock, when really I like to let my animals do the teaching. I'm the student. We're observing, we're seeing what's going on. I like to let them do the work too. Don't get me wrong, they're the teachers and the workers. I'm the student. To let them do the work too, don't get me wrong, they're the teachers and the workers, I'm the student. But just even recently, we're wintertime here in Pennsylvania, we're maxing out the home farm, so we are bale grazing, we're feeding hay, and I just got bored with how we were doing it. I wanted to switch it up, I wanted to try some stuff, and so we've done a couple of different methods and patterns. And guess what?

You learn things when that happens, and I was thinking of this comment earlier and daniel taught me this phrase, and it's the holistic management theme where disturbance creates emergence of some kind. So, whether this is the soil surface, we disturb it to a certain depth and it emerges somehow. And we determine good, bad or indifferent or whatever the same with our routines and our schedules. If you create a disturbance, if you shake things up, that allows room for different results to happen. So here I am, I'm bale grazing. I'm bored with how we always do it. I'm like we're going to try something else and it's been really fun. It's been really fun just to let the cows teach me things.

I was doing a really tight paddock the other day, me things like. I was doing a really tight paddock the other day and I'm doing kind of I've never done this before. Usually I roll out all the hay for the paddock and they have that hay until we hit that mark where I said, okay, the hay should be spent by now and we move on to the next one. Oh, right, now we're using about one round bale per day. So we're on a really tight paddock and I'm doing a. I could people call it different things. I call it a winter wind row where I unroll the hay and then I run a single strand of electric over top of it and they eat from underneath it, because we're into some wet weather here and if I roll out all the hay in the paddock they end up trampling a large portion, which I'm fine with.

I'm okay with that when it's wet, we get a lot of dimpling, and I was trying to mix it up, and so this way they really flatten and compact the area that they're standing on for the day, because they're all standing in this row and they're leaving the hay. Oh yes, and the next day that's the row they're all standing on and they're working it in evenly. So instead of all these random craters, we're actually getting a pretty nicely laid hay bed, oh interesting.

And come this growing season I'll tell you if that was good or bad. We'll find out. But I'm coming out and the same three cows are like over the fence eating hay from the other side, and this is my pride in the situation. I'm like there's darn three cows, those are the troublemakers, like what's going on? And I kept putting them back in and after three days it's the same characters and I'm like all right, what's going on? And then I was like, yeah, you dummy, like those cows are trying to tell you something and you're not listening because you're taking yourself too seriously. Those three cows weren't the troublemakers. Those three cows are at the bottom of the totem pole, getting pushed around to the point where they go through or under or over the wire just because everybody else is Boston Maroon. And so then, okay, you made an observation, you learned something because you discouraged your original rhythm.

Now there's an emergence for a learning opportunity, and I probably should have pieced that together on day one, but I didn't, I was just being dumb about it. So then I'm able to collect data on this situation. I said, okay, let's look at the length of this paddock. This paddock is 25 paces, so it's roughly 75 feet for my cattle. 31 head, that's not enough room. And then that led me to okay, let's measure the horns on some of these highlands. The average was like 40 inches, which I didn't realize I would have guessed like 28.

Oh yeah, you know like we're closing in on four feet of horns. That takes up a lot of space when you're it does. So I'm like, okay, I switched up my routine, a learning opportunity emerged. I observed it, I collected data and now I can go back to the drawing board and we can have some more fun with this, and that's the beauty. It's the beauty, it's the fun, it's the enjoyment of grazing and doing what we do. I really love it.

0:54:25 - Cal
But that's just an example that I've had recently of learning and collecting the data and starting over and mixing things up, that's okay, yeah, and that's a wonderful observation you made with that, and then you adjusted your practice, so maybe those cows aren't getting bullied into the next paddock, so it works out good. Eli, it's about the time, and I didn't warn you earlier. Of course, this is our second try at it, so maybe you did get a warning, but you have to answer the famous four questions.

I know you answered them before, but let's see where you've gone with that now. But before we get there, is there anything else you'd like to add? Before we transition to the famous four, oh, I don't know, Cal.

0:55:09 - Eli
I think we're okay. I think we can go to the famous four. Last time I got ahead of myself, so I'll wait to the questions.

0:55:15 - Cal
Oh, okay, there we go. Okay, Famous Four Questions sponsored by Ken Cove Farm Fence. Ken Cove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass Podcast and grazers everywhere At Ken Cove Farm Fence. They believe there's true value within the community of grazers and land stewards. The results that follow proper management and monitoring can change the very world around us. Follow proper management and monitoring can change the very world around us. That's why Ken Cove is dedicated to providing an ever-expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant.

Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres, Ken Cove has everything you need to do it well, From reels to tumbleweels, polytwine to electric nets, water valves to water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Ken Cove. They carry brands like Speedrite, O'Briens, Kiwi Tech, Strainrite, Jobe and more. Ken Cove is proud to be part of your regenerative journey. Call them today or visit KenCovecom, and be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Ken Cove YouTube channel at Ken Cove Farm Fans for helpful how-to videos and new product releases. Same four questions we ask of all of our guests. And our very first question what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource.

0:56:41 - Eli
I read. A while ago I read Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold. It's a classic among people that are farmers, ranchers, conservationists, wildlife people alike. It is a fantastic book. It's a go back to kind of book. Even when I read it I see principles of holistic management in there. It's like these are proven principles that, whether you call it holistic management or you just call it life, like they're there. So I really enjoy his work in that book. Holistic management, the handbook, the workbook both of them are great resources for people doing what we do. I think I was telling you earlier that I'm really stuck on trees, as you can tell by my tangent earlier in this episode. So I've been reading some tree books and I'm currently chipping through Tree Crops by Smith J Russell. Smith, I believe, is who it is. Oh, yes, and Austin probably would have referenced that as his book in his episode.

0:57:33 - Cal
I'm sure I think he did, because I purchased that book based upon his recommendation. It was really interesting, but it's a really old read. It's what 30s or 40s, maybe 50s, I'm not sure. Yeah, it's been around. It may be earlier than that.

0:57:47 - Eli
It's been around a minute. And then we mentioned Daniel Griffith, down in Virginia. He's my mentor. He's written two books. One of them is Wild Like Flowers, the other one is Dark Cloud Country and he's working on a third. They're working on getting published right now and he does some great work that will challenge your concepts and your philosophy of management and grazing and farming and all those things. Not as much a pragmatic kind of guy, he likes to challenge thought.

0:58:17 - Cal
So those are good books to really take your mind for a jog. Oh very good, excellent selections there. I say that there's a fair number in there that I haven't read. I haven't read Daniel's second book and I haven't read those Sand County almanacs except I really hate to admit that because those have been brought up a number of times on the podcast and I've yet to read them. So maybe 2024 is the year there you go Cross them off, yet to read them. So maybe 2024 is the year there you go, cross them off.

0:58:45 - Eli
Our second question what is your favorite tool for the farm? I think the first episode. I said my Leatherman. I think that was on the list and it still is. I wear my Leatherman on my hip every day. I have a specific model.

Now it's OHT, because everything's accessible from the inside and the pliers are like a switchblade, like I don't have to use my. Oh yes, I think that's great. I love my Leatherman tool, the OHT, and I would add to that list I got my cattle dog Quigley. He's great for rounding up livestock when something chaotic happens. And probably irreplaceable on the farm right now is my gas powered water pump, because we pump water from the creek and from the pond. We don't have any buried water lines or pressure with well water or anything like that, so moving water is very important. And even to the extent where I've snatched up what two more of these two inch outlet gas powered water pumps so that I can really set them up strategically around the farm, that's been huge. So I know you're asking me for one item, but I got a list recently and I always have my phone on me in the paddock.

But I've really enjoyed just a small pocket notebook where, like I, can take down notes and observations. This just feels so much more personal to me. I keep my birthing records in here and then I move them to my phone. But this is also a great backup for when something gets deleted off my phone accidentally, which does happen pretty often, but I enjoy carrying this with me because I can make little scratch notes and little ideas. Like when I was talking about switching things up with bale grazing, I was actually like sketching them out in here, out in the paddock, before I wrote out my plan for them. So that's been just the past couple of weeks. A little pocket notebook. I'm really enjoying that.

1:00:27 - Cal
I love the idea of a pocket notebook and I go through phases. I'll carry one for a while and then I get out of the habit, and then something will remind me. I'll be like, oh yeah, I like that. So then I'll do it all the time, trying to figure out what works best for me and figuring that out For everybody.

1:00:47 - Eli
I'm not much of a typing and tapping on a screen guy. I'd much rather put pen to paper, but that's not for everybody, so I get that, oh yeah.

1:00:56 - Cal
One thing about your gas powered water pumps. Being in Pennsylvania, you have a little bit more winter weather than I do. Do you utilize those year-round, or are you just using those during your main growing season, where you don't have to worry about cold?

1:01:11 - Eli
weather into any of their water sources. We're protecting the stream banks and fencing those off, creating some wild riparian areas. Same thing with the pond we have a nice buffer around it, so we use them through the winter and when it's mildly cold I just drain all the hoses back out, drain the pump and I can let it sit there outside with just a hood over it. If it's going to get really cold, I'll drain all the hoses, just stay put on the ground and I'll bring the water pump inside, either carry it, which is sometimes a chore, and sometimes I have my four wheeler right there and I'll just bug it back to the house. But that's been great. Honestly, I use the two inch lay flat hose and sometimes if you drain it, it's not really going to freeze. Every now and then the middle will freeze shut like a pinch, but as soon as there's any kind of pressure buildup, once the pump kicks in, it just blows that out.

And it's really well, if you drain the hoses, you don't get into any issues. You just have to remember to drain the pump as well, so that it doesn't crack anything or get froze up.

1:02:23 - Cal
And at that point, if I do forget, I'll take out a heat gun or a weed burner or something. Just give it a quick go over and loosen things up, and then we're back in business. Oh yes, and what kind of watering trough are you using for your cattle and sheep?

1:02:30 - Eli
I have Rubbermaid 100 gallons and I also have one of the metal county line, like your tractor supply kind. Oh yeah, I hate that thing. I hate it. I will tell you. I'll give an honest review because the walls are straight, like it's a cylinder. It's cylindrical, so if you ever have to dump it out when it's somewhat full it's quite the chore. I actually blew out my knee trying to do that this year. Whereas the Rubbermaid ones are staggered, they get wider at the top and bottom so they're easier to get leverage on them, to tip them, and I love that. And I'm also not a fan of having metal water troughs up against electric fences because if anything happens now you're making contact on your water troughs.

They're getting sucked out by the water. So I just like to eliminate that altogether. I will say I'm working on finding the best method for mending cracked Rubbermaid troughs, and this could be a great question across the community because I'm sure people have good hacks for it. I found a couple that work for me. I think what happens is when we drink that water down in the wintertime and the water settles towards the base and it freezes when it's at a low height in the trough, it expands that bottom and it pops the seam. Oh yeah, because it's in the same place every time.

So I'm working on correcting that. And then at Ken Cove they recently started stocking Balin Country stock tanks, water troughs similar to a Rubbermaid, a little bit different. I'd like to test some of those out this year and see which one I like more.

1:04:00 - Cal
Oh yeah, very good. And moving on to our third question, after a little bit of a tangent there, what would you tell someone just getting started?

1:04:12 - Eli
This is a good question, I think I would say just to not play the comparison game. It exists in any field career, business, industry, personal, especially on social media.

My goodness, the comparison game on social media is a beast and if you don't guard yourself against that, you will become a victim of it. So don't start now. Don't start ever. Don't compare yourself to what other people have going on. I have to remind myself of that all the time, because everyone's context is different.

Everything I'm talking about here in this episode is very specific to my context. Whether you think it's small potatoes or you think it's 10 times bigger than you'll ever be, it's specific context. So don't get sucked into somebody else's context. You have your lane, something that's been given you to run with. You've been blessed with something. Just start where you are, embrace what's around you, even if it's untraditional or not the orthodox way that people in this space are going about it and just embrace what you have and start appreciate your own context and find a way to make that your thing. And if you do that, you will have a very specific niche in this niche if that makes sense, because everybody can go out there and try the template stuff. That's all fine and dandy, but we're all too different and created differently to fall into that game. We need the unique perspective that everybody has coming from their own context. Don't compare yourself, don't try to copycat.

1:05:47 - Cal
Be creative, find your ways to embrace your context and live it out. Excellent advice, and that is so hard, not to look on social media or wherever, and compare.

1:06:03 - Eli
Excellent advice, yeah, and lastly, Eli, how can others find out more about you? Instagram is probably where I'm the most active and most accessible at the moment. Instagram is Mac Farms M-A-C-K Farms and we post a lot there. I've been posting a lot more now than I have been the past couple of months, just because there's a lot happening. So Instagram is pretty active. We are going to be pursuing a website here pretty soon and even when that happens, I'll be posting about that on Instagram too. So Instagram is probably the best place to keep up with all the happenings.

1:06:32 - Cal
Very good, Eli. I appreciate you jumping back on here and revisiting this after a few years.

1:06:39 - Eli
Hey, my pleasure, Cal. Thank you for having me back Appreciate it.

1:06:44 - Cal
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